[Discussion] Grip the Top or the Counterbalance?

[Nightmare]

Nightmare's use of it, for instance, was totally inappropriate.

Right, but at least I'm aware that I'm spewing bullshit as I'm doing it, and am convincing other people that they're wrong. You know all about that, right Jack?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Right, but at least I'm aware that I'm spewing bullshit as I'm doing it, and am convincing other people that they're wrong. You know all about that, right Jack?

God, when did Syracuse turn emo? Buck up, Daniel-san, it's going to be alright.

[Nightmare]

God, when did Syracuse turn emo? Buck up, Daniel-san, it's going to be alright.

How is that even remotely emo? Something must have been lost in the aether there, cause I was being a dick.

@ Sockmonkey - I was being dismissive. Are you new here?

To explain anyway, I sincerely doubt that Anwar and Volt's deck choice had a significant impact on their results. Having played Anwar in plenty of events, I think it's safe to say he would have done well regardless, and I believe just as well with Counterbalance in his deck as he did without it. I haven't played vs Volt, but I'm sure the same is true for him, as well. (Note - one of the best strategies against Counterbalance is to resolve your own, first)

[xsockmonkeyx]

@ Sockmonkey - I was being dismissive. Are you new here?

No, not new here. I just don't think you listen to anything I say.

To explain anyway, I sincerely doubt that Anwar and Volt's deck choice had a significant impact on their results. Having played Anwar in plenty of events, I think it's safe to say he would have done well regardless, and I believe just as well with Counterbalance in his deck as he did without it.

Good player chooses a deck to beat the field, with a deck meant to beat the field. I know that may seem like a false postitive, so I submit to you this: what is your opinion of Bovinious (I think he's good so screw you preemptively)? The guy's made a living feasting off a field of soft locks that you can basically ignore.

(Note - one of the best strategies against Counterbalance is to resolve your own, first)

True. Or you could just beat the snout out of everyone, I dont know.

[Volt]

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[Deep6er]

Actually, that's not accurate. Every time I've played against Bovinious with a Counterbalance based deck, I've swept him 2-0. I'd get him to back me up here, but he's, you know, banned.

Interesting note though, every time I've played him with something that WASN'T Counterbalance based, I've lost (as long as he's playing Ichorid, he can't play anything else for shit).

Not really important, but figured it would be a humorous aside.

[Nightmare]

No, not new here. I just don't think you listen to anything I say.

Don't feel slighted. I don't pay attention to anything anyone says. It's nothing personal.

Good player chooses a deck to beat the field, with a deck meant to beat the field. I know that may seem like a false postitive, so I submit to you this: what is your opinion of Bovinious (I think he's good so screw you preemptively)? The guy's made a living feasting off a field of soft locks that you can basically ignore.

There are two separate realms of thought on the issue of "deck vs. field." One, as you have lain out, seeks to prey on the expected metagame. The other, which I subscribe to, is to just play the best deck, and let a combination of skill (which I think I have) and luck (which I assume I have) sort out the hate decks. So, in this instance, I still think Counterbalance is the right strategy. I will concede, however, that I am by nature predisposed to playing control decks, which skews my perspective on the issue.

And I hold no opinion on IRL Bovinious. I've never met, nor played him. On the other hand, he's a moron on the internet.

[Volt]

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[Deep6er]

I would disagree with that sentiment because the addition of new cards can never complement a circle. I see it as more a line. True evolution of a sort.

I HIGHLY doubt that there will be a period of time where Goblins will return to it's former dominance (barring a card being printed that makes it unbelievably overpowered).

[Nightmare]

With rare exceptions (i.e. Hulk Flash), the "best deck" is only the best so long as certain metagame conditions exist. To my eyes, it seems like Legacy is quickly evolving to hate Counterbalance out. Before too long, Goblins is going to be good again, and we'll know we've come full circle.

I totally disagree with this sentiment. There are factors which exist that will keep the metagame "In Check" as it were. For example, Goblins' inability to effectively deal with Combo (including Ichorid, which is a much worse matchup than people credit), and it's vulnerability to Engineered Plague, will always keep it from going back to the dominant force it once was. The last time Goblins was the top tier, Solidarity was the best combo deck. Counterbalance effectively ended Solidarity, along with the fact that it only beat Goblins like 50% of the time. The decks keeping the combo in check are things like Landstill (kinda) and Thresh, which have the best creature in the format to play with, and which single handedly puts Gobs on their back foot. The foil here is obviously Ichorid, but the fact that it basically autowins about 80% of its game 1's is offset by the fact that it gets OWNED by a prepared player games 2 and 3. The fact that the burden is on the other player to stop the Ichorid deck is irrelevant, because it's like, impossible for Ichorid to actually win through the hate if it's present in a significant way. All of these factors - Combo being present and good/fast; Goblins/Ichorid losing to significant hate; and the presence of Goyf/CB all combine to give Legacy some actual stability. Granted, there are options that I'm not addressing (Sligh, DS, etc.), but the jist is there.

[Volt]

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[Anusien]

Modern Landstill and Rock builds both run 4 Tarmogoyf, which is incredibly hateful for Goblins.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Why are people crediting Counterbalance with killing Solidarity? Solidarity was dead when Warrens was printed and Tendrils and Belcher got a turn faster.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Tarmogoyf has a very limited shelf-life. It exists far outside of the maximum efficeiency power curve where cards like Goblin Piledriver, Pernicious Deed and Brainstorm live. It's presence contorts the metagame in a subtle but pervasive way, and obsoletes certain strategies and the vast majority of creatures (even the best creatures outside of Tarmogoyf become also rans, except for a select few that may be more powerful when built around, such as Terravore or Painter's Servant or the like). It's continued existence outside of the Legacy (and possibly Extended, although it's somewhat harder for every deck to support there) banned list depends upon two factors; the invisibility of it's influence and the embarassment it would cause Wizards to add a recently-printed card, and a theoretically vanilla creature no less, to the banned list. The second factor will be perpetually decreasing, however; every sin is eased with time, and the farther away from the printing of Future Sight we get, the easier it will be for Wizards to admit to a mistake. There's a limited time before Tarmogoyf gets removed from the cardpool. This would have a limited effect on the metagame (part of the relative invisibility of it's influence comes from the fact that very nearly every archetype can run it), but greatly increse the variety of creatures seeing play.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Don't feel slighted. I don't pay attention to anything anyone says. It's nothing personal.

Fair enough.

I see your side of the argument for CB, and they are two sides of the same coin. Id type more but my head hurts.

[Jak]

Isn't that kind of bad, though? The best way to beat a card is to play it yourself? Kind of like T2 Affinity, hate decks vs. Affinity or Flash vs. hate

[Whit3 Ghost]

Isn't that kind of bad, though? The best way to beat a card is to play it yourself? Kind of like T2 Affinity, hate decks vs. Affinity or Flash vs. hate

I'd say the difference is that the decks that beat CB don't distort their strategies much, yet. Counterbalance has streamlined the format, but hasn't warped it to the degree of Rafinity or Flash.

[FoolofaTook]

Tarmogoyf has a very limited shelf-life. It exists far outside of the maximum efficeiency power curve where cards like Goblin Piledriver, Pernicious Deed and Brainstorm live. It's presence contorts the metagame in a subtle but pervasive way, and obsoletes certain strategies and the vast majority of creatures (even the best creatures outside of Tarmogoyf become also rans, except for a select few that may be more powerful when built around, such as Terravore or Painter's Servant or the like). It's continued existence outside of the Legacy (and possibly Extended, although it's somewhat harder for every deck to support there) banned list depends upon two factors; the invisibility of it's influence and the embarassment it would cause Wizards to add a recently-printed card, and a theoretically vanilla creature no less, to the banned list. The second factor will be perpetually decreasing, however; every sin is eased with time, and the farther away from the printing of Future Sight we get, the easier it will be for Wizards to admit to a mistake. There's a limited time before Tarmogoyf gets removed from the cardpool. This would have a limited effect on the metagame (part of the relative invisibility of it's influence comes from the fact that very nearly every archetype can run it), but greatly increse the variety of creatures seeing play.

This is exactly right. Tarmogoyf is not one of those cards that gets banned quickly, because it is a basic beater that is just very undercosted. However with each new set WoTC is going to be looking at an unenviable choice: either print a creature similar in cost to power as Goyf, which would cause problems in all the formats and fundamentally rearrange the value of creatures as a whole, or recognize that they made a mistake the first time around.

Here's what I think they're going to do: print another Goyf with a different name but the same ability and have it cost GG1. Then they'll ban Tarmogoyf everywhere but Vintage.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I doubt it will have exactly the same templating; sans the extra toughness and with Trample or Regeneration or something is very plausible, however.

[frogboy]

"with regeneration"

lol.