Easiest format?

[thefreakaccident]

I think this thread has been long deserved, and I think it will be interesting to hear your guys non-biased (lol) thoughts on the matter.


I will put the most relevant formats for this discussion:


1. Draft
2. Standard
3. Extended
4. Legacy (shouldn't be on the list, but this is a legacy board, so)
5. Vintage (also, should not be here, but it is)

(I did not add in block, I feel no need)


Obviously, you need some sort of content in your posts, so I guess I will have some guideline here:

Rank them from easiest to most difficult, and give explanations as to why you put them in that order.

I guess I shall start:


(easiest to most difficult):

legacy
vintage
standard
extended
draft


Basically, this is how I feel personally..

Legacy is as stagnant as any format gets, being relatively unaffected by new blocks (maybe seeing 2-6 playables max in an entire new block), and does not get affected by B&R changes.


Vintage has to alter itself every time that the B&R come around, forcing at least some sort of development and meta shifting.


Standard and extended are both very similar formats, as most extended decks are straight ports of teir 1 standard decks, The format is still very competitive, but you have to deal with a relatively small card pool, which can limit options, leaving less to test against as opposed to extended.


Extended as I said before is ever changing, which forces hours upon hours of playtesting every week in order to keep up with the ever changing field and continue doing well, this is by far the most difficult field to be consistent in.


Draft is IMO the most difficult format, as there are a lot of difficult things that most magic players simply cannot due, such as reading opponents picks, and being able to make split second decisions that do not influence just a game, but an entire tournament... Many people also just know how to pilot a deck, and know nothing about building one, let alone in such a tiny card pool.

--------------------

Please, for your first post here, only post if you plan on having a list of 5, and a reason for it.


Also, this is not to be a flame war, if you do not like someone's picks, then bitch about it somewhere else.

I think this would be interesting for people to just see how others actually view the world of magic as a whole.

[That kid you all hate]

I really disagree. IMO, draft is the easiest, followed by T2, because in T2, there's usually an obviously best deck, which you can just tweak to your meta.

[stalkerzero]

I really disagree. IMO, draft is the easiest, followed by T2, because in T2, there's usually an obviously best deck, which you can just tweak to your meta.

I'd really have to agree on the part about Standard (I've never drafted so I don't really know).

In standard you have a fairly small card pool and generally answers to the best cards are generally harder to find. So you can usually just play the best deck until things start rotating.

Legacy and Vintage deck innovation is seriously one of the most difficult things in the game. You have literally thousands of cards waiting to be broken in some way or another (or to just sit and be useless).

Now Legacy and Vintage may not shift metas as much as Standard but I don't think that adds any difficulty to the average standard player really (especially not in the recent tribal blocks).

[dahcmai]

Standard is the easiest to me. It's a matter of a picking a deck and playing like it's tabletop magic where you know what everyone else has. It's pretty "standard". Excuse the bad pun, but it sure applies.

Extended would be next.

Draft after that and that's only because there is some strategy in picking your cards and noticing what other people are picking. Playing it is pretty straightforward.

Legacy is a beast of it's own. It may not change much, but it has a lot of intricacies you just don't have to deal with in Standard. Decisions on what to play on what mana in your first few turns decides a lot more than other formats.

Vintage is Legacy with a lot more thinking to it. Hope you're good at math. You may know exactly what the other guy is playing, but you better have a good idea of how to guess what's in his hand and how fast he can decide to push through your defenses.



So from my point of veiw it's

Standard
Extended
Draft
Legacy
Vintage

[Kuma]

I gather from your post that by "easiest format" you mean some combination of least amount of time necessary to be competitive and easiest format to do consistently well in. The latter is affected both by the amount of luck in the format and/or the presence of a top deck or decks.

Legacy may not require much upkeep to be competitive since the format is relatively slow to change, but one needs to be familiar with more cards and possible decks than you do with any other format. Sure, there is a smaller number of decks that do consistently well in small tournaments, but the better representation of Legacy is the four or five round smaller tournament where you could face anything from slightly modified Standard decks to homebrew decks that make no sense at face value. This makes it hard to do consistently well in Legacy and requires one to spent a great amount of time keeping up with all sorts of decks that don't show up in the DtB forum, yet are capable of winning tournaments.

I'm no expert on any other format except draft, so I really can't speak to how hard it is to play Vintage, Extended, or Standard, but I'm sure they each have things that are difficult to do, i.e. keeping up with the ever-changing card pool and acquiring cards in Standard.

Draft, however, requires a very different set of skills than Legacy, and I believe my Drafting has made me a better Legacy player. It doesn't so much help your deckbuilding skills as much as it helps you learn to have a plan and find a way to win (although it does give you an appreciation for having a mana curve). I've seen Legacy players who rarely Draft make tons of mistakes in Draft games simply because they're used to piloting something familiar with a well-defined game plan against something else that is familiar. In Draft, even though there is a smaller card pool, the decks vary perhaps even more than they do in Legacy, and you learn to watch out for certain strategies more than certain cards.

I don't think you can just put the formats on a neat little list since they are difficult in different ways.

[Solaran_X]

Legacy is as stagnant as any format gets, being relatively unaffected by new blocks (maybe seeing 2-6 playables max in an entire new block), and does not get affected by B&R change.

Normally...I'd let this go. But I'm in a wee bit of a bad mood...so I'm gonna nitpick.

2-6 playables max in an entire new block? Wow...we've been seeing 2-6 per SET recently.

Eventide:
Nettle Sentinel
Talara's Battalion
Duergar Hedge-Mage
Worm Harvest
Cold-Eyed Selkie
Stillmoon Cavalier

Shadowmoor:
Painter's Servant
Faerie Macabre
Everlasting Torment
Guttural Response
Kitchen Finks
Manamorphose
Swans of Bryn Argoll
Vexing Shusher

Morningtide (Worst of the Lorwyn/Shadowmoor Block):
Countryside Crusher
Runed Halo
Mutavault

Lorwyn:
Gaddock Teeg
Imperious Perfect
Jace Beleran
Oblivion Ring
Shriekmaw
Thorn of Amethyst
Thoughtseize
Wispmare
Wren's Run Vanquisher

Future Sight:
Bridge from Below
Dryad Arbor
Epochrasite
Gathan Raiders
Magus of the Moon
Narcomoeba
Pact of Negation
Street Wraith
Tarmogoyf
Tombstalker
Yixlid Jailer

Planar Chaos:
Extirpate
Magus of the Tabernacle
Mana Tithe
Seal of Primordium
Simian Spirit Guide
Stonecloaker
Sulfur Elemental

Time Spiral:
Academy Ruins
Conflagrate
Empty the Warrens
Flagstones of Trokair
Krosan Grip
Managara of Corondor
Serra Avenger
Tivadar of Thorn
Wipe Away

Coldsnap:
Counterbalance
Icefall
Jotun Grunt
Lightning Storm

A few years ago, your "2-6 cards per block" would've been right. But recently, Legacy has gotten a massive influx of new cards, some of which have even invented new decks (Imperial Painter because of Painter's Servant, Death and Taxes because of Mangara of Corondor, and SwanThresh because of Swans of Bryn Argoll).

Personally, I'd rank the formats like this.

Standard (smallest card pool, least amount of viable competitive decks)
Extended (moderate card pool, moderate amount of viable competitive decks)
Draft (randomness of packs combined with skill [or lack thereof] of those on your left and right makes for a difficult format)
Legacy (more decisions in one game of Legacy than in one match of Standard or Extended, and one misstep can be far more damaging than a misstep in Standard or Extended)
Vintage (hardest format there is, hands down)

[Taurelin]

Coldsnap:
Counterbalance
Jotun Grunt
Lightning Storm

Edited for truth.

[Solaran_X]

Edited for truth.

Not sure how I missed Counterbalance, considering I run 6 across 2 decks.

Icefall is played in various Dragon Stompy builds, so don't take it off the list. It's certainly a Legacy playable.

[Elficidium]

Strange how people consider Vintage to be a hard format to play. I consider it one of the easiest, seeing how the larger part of the players don't have the slightest clue what they are doing rules-wise and just seem to be throwing together expensive cards. It's always the players with power, who consider themselves to be serious vintage players, that ask the dumbest rules questions.

Anyway, there's a big difference you gotta between playing a format and being innovative within a format. It is not hard to design Block constructed decks, it in insanely hard to play them right, due to the fact that they are all quite evenly matched (best matchups in current block constructed is 60/40), so it all comes down to player skill. In legacy, one can (and often does) just netdecks and build a belcher/ichorid/fast combo list and plays it brainlessly to a top-8 at a tournament. That doesn't require much skill.

Easiest to Play:
Legacy
Vintage
Draft
Standard
Extended
Block

Easiest to Build:
Block
Standard
Extended
Legacy
Vintage
Draft

[Eddie]

Strange how people consider Vintage to be a hard format to play. I consider it one of the easiest, seeing how the larger part of the players don't have the slightest clue what they are doing rules-wise and just seem to be throwing together expensive cards. It's always the players with power, who consider themselves to be serious vintage players, that ask the dumbest rules questions.

Have you ever played or judged a Vintage event? I haven't seen you at a Vintage event so I think you are drawing a conclusion on a different experience. Don't think that Vintage players trying out Legacy and asking stupid questions equals stupid Vintage players. Both formats require very different skill and even rules knowledge. I know the stack like the best, but don't ask me to make some tricky combat decisions.

My order would be:

Standard
Extended
Draft
Legacy
Vintage

[Eldariel]

My 2 cents is that Draft is the most complex simply because the process of drafting adds so much depth to the game - it allows each player to interact with the whole table, something that's just never doable in a normal tournament. It's no coincidence that the best players of all times (Finkel, Budde) both happen to favour limited formats, and likewise post most consistent results in limited.

[Jaiminho]

Anyway, there's a big difference you gotta between playing a format and being innovative within a format. It is not hard to design Block constructed decks, it in insanely hard to play them right, due to the fact that they are all quite evenly matched (best matchups in current block constructed is 60/40), so it all comes down to player skill. In legacy, one can (and often does) just netdecks and build a belcher/ichorid/fast combo list and plays it brainlessly to a top-8 at a tournament. That doesn't require much skill.

Block is the most random format. There are so few very good cards, and by very good I mean cards that stand out as so much better than the rest of the crappy format, that whoever draws more of them stands the best chance.

And good luck trying to autoplay combo mindlessly in Legacy, specially when you have no idea of how to trample hate, which is, as far as I remember, the number 1 reason for why combo is not on the top of the format.

[Elficidium]

Have you ever played or judged a Vintage event? I haven't seen you at a Vintage event so I think you are drawing a conclusion on a different experience. Don't think that Vintage players trying out Legacy and asking stupid questions equals stupid Vintage players. Both formats require very different skill and even rules knowledge. I know the stack like the best, but don't ask me to make some tricky combat decisions.

Should've discussed this with you yesterday then =)

Anyway, you probably have a point, I suppose that vintage players are few and far between, especially in regards to rules knowledge.
It's just that yesterday I had someone with power on the table look at me unbelievingly when I told him that FOW costs mana to play under Thorn/Trini. These kind of sitiations, and stories from other judges give me a general sloppy impression of Vintage players.
Also, a complete idiot can pilot a combo deck to top 8 in an unprepared legacy meta. Playing through hate is very difficult, but stuff like belcher can just plain goldfish if no hate is present.

[Nightmare]

I stopped reading this thread when it got into the whole "How many good cards are there in each set" thing. I'll answer this by the interpretation I can best give. Here are my rankings, based on the following criterium:

If I were to try and qualify for a Pro Tour through a large event in each format, which would be the easiest, and hardest, to do so in?

Easiest - Block/Standard

While this format contains the most difficult opponents, with the most familiarity with the cards, the small card pool allows you to prepare for (within reason) the entire format without much difficulty. There is, with few exceptions, little to think about outside of combat math and what tricks your opponent may have. I enjoy Block right now, but it's not exactly the most diverse format ever. With a good deck selection, and tight play, I think these are the easiest formats.

Second - Extended

Extended is much like the previous format, although there are some differences due to the enlarged card pool. It's probably the most difficult of the constructed formats that actually can get you on the tour.

Third - Vintage

Vintage, while containing the largest card pool, contains one of the smallest viable card pools. The power level forces bad cards out, and good cards in. It's this reason more than any other that you see the same 35 cards in every vintage list. If it weren't for the swinginess of the format, this would rank much easier. Since it can sometimes be an unforgiving format (again, due to power level), it ranks harder.

Runner up - Limited

A large event in limited is a Sealed deck swiss, with a top8 draft. This is an incredibly difficult format. So much rides on whether or not you get a decent pool in your Sealed, it seems like it's extremely difficult to overcome mediocrity in this type of event. That luck factor - you having good cards, and your opponent not having the nuts - makes it extremely difficult to make the stars align in limited. That being said, this is probably my favorite format these days.

Hardest - Legacy

Anyone who thinks Legacy is an easy format is kidding themselves, and will scrub out after their fine-tuned deck loses to Elves, or Burn, or Wombat, or (god forbid) Trix. This format is about as random as it gets, and it's simply impossible to prepare yourself for everything that could be thrown at you. It's easily the most difficult format over a span of 5+ rounds, simply because the format is WIDE OPEN. Literally anything can be 3-1 going into round 5, simply because it managed to dodge all the decks that are bad for it.

[Solaran_X]

Should've discussed this with you yesterday then =)

Anyway, you probably have a point, I suppose that vintage players are few and far between, especially in regards to rules knowledge.
It's just that yesterday I had someone with power on the table look at me unbelievingly when I told him that FOW costs mana to play under Thorn/Trini. These kind of sitiations, and stories from other judges give me a general sloppy impression of Vintage players.
Also, a complete idiot can pilot a combo deck to top 8 in an unprepared legacy meta. Playing through hate is very difficult, but stuff like belcher can just plain goldfish if no hate is present.

I'm sorry, but a complete idiot won't be able to pick up a combo deck (Belcher, TES, TPS, Fetchland Tendrils, Iggy Pop, Solidarity, Ichorid, etc., etc.) and just take it to Top 8. With no knowledge of the deck or it's tricks or the intricacies of how the deck operates, random-jank-aggro.dec will just pound him. There are so many tricks you have to know to play combo in Legacy that it is just disgusting.

When do you play Brainstorm over Ponder?

When do you play Ponder over Brainstorm?

When do you pop Lion's Eye Diamond?

Do you play your Lotus Petal on turn 1 or wait for it?

These are decisions you can't just practice by goldfishing. These are decisions you make on the fly, based on knowledge of your deck, knowledge of your opponent's deck, knowledge of what your opponent has played, knowledge of board position, etc., etc.

I'm sorry...but no rook is gonna just pick up Belcher and waltz into the Top 8 with a 5-0 simply because he netdecked it.

[Jaiminho]

His sentence only makes sense if he's saying "an unprepared meta" means a casual meta.

[nitewolf9]

Well, here goes (in order from easiest to hardest):

Standard/block: Seems to always have a defined metagame due to the smaller card pool and is generally straight forward.

Vintage: It seems that this format has the greatest desparity between the tiers and your deck choice seems to be the most important thing. After that this is the format with the least amount of interaction due to the power level.

Legacy/Extended: I think these two formats are tied with each other as far as difficulty is concerned. There seems to be almost as much random in extended as there is in legacy, but extended also seems to attract a greater concentration of "good" players (not that good players aren't attracted to legacy, but it seems to be the format that most are unfamiliar with) because wizards actually supports it. Legacy is less forgiving however when it comes to deck/card choices as the decks are more powerful and their strategic differences are exacerbated. I love both of these formats and consider them to be on relatively the same level.

Limited: Hands down the most skill intensive format. Most will agree with me.

[yawg07]

EASIEST

Standard - OMG it is the most simple format, but that is why it is fun, I can play / beats and be very successful!
Combat math can get pretty complicated, but not to ridiculous amounts.

Extended - Really not that much more complicated than Standard, and I love it because no FoW = combo, which = Easy wins :D
I've never played a creature deck in Extended because I don't see the point, TEPS (even post rotation) beats the piss out of the creature decks, and a lot of the control decks.



MID-RANGE

Legacy - Lots and lots of decisions to be made. What to do/not to do and when to do/not do it.
Combat math is simpler, but you have to be reading several turns ahead, especially when you're playing around Counter-top.



HARD

Vintage - Every decision is extremely time-intensive and important. Like in Legacy where the first 3 turns are the most important, Vintage has a 2 turn threshold.
You NEED to have done something important in the first turn, and then have made your board presence known by turn 2.
Decks have to be very carefully constructed and prepared for the insane metagame.



TOUGHEST

Limited - OMG what a fun, yet incredibly tough format. Combat math, combat math, combat math.
You never know what you'll be playing with or what's going to happen next, you're walking into downtown New York blindfolded.

[Eddie]

It's just that yesterday I had someone with power on the table look at me unbelievingly when I told him that FOW costs mana to play under Thorn/Trini.

Well, that's obvious an idiot and I doubt if it was a real vintage player. Owning power does not mean they know how to play vintage. There where 4 vintage players at the event yesterday so you are either talking about me (although I didn't need a judge all day), Mitchell, Ilja or Tim. I'd be surprised if they didn't know this. I played against Tim with Thorn on the table and I payed a mana when FOWing his lackey... I don't even think they brought their power so I don't know whom you are referring to. But this is a public place so maybe it's best if we didn't discuss this and keep our thoughts about all formats to ourselves ;-)

[Isamaru]

Nightmare's the only one who I agree with so far.

(I think Vintage is actually not as hard as Legacy... in Vintage, you can't as easily suddenly be surprised by a deck - things are a bit closer to rock paper scissors.)