[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

[emidln]

I went 5-0-3 at a small event today playing UBwg Doomsday. I played the same maindeck I'm playing in the mtgsalvation tourney -1 Volcanic Island, -1 Badlands, +1 Island, +1 Plains. My sideboard was mostly standard with the notable exception of 1 Infernal Tutor, 1 Ill-Gotten Gains in my sideboard against heavy discard or aggro. As it turns out, I played against a lot of combo decks in a rather undeveloped metagame. I beat UB Helm of Obedience Combo-Control, WR Enchantment Solutions w/Painter Kill (I think) twice, BR Spanish Inquisition, and Uwr Landstill/Scepter Chant w/CB+Runed Halo+Scepter via Enlightened Tutor Toolbox between swiss and top8. I.D.'d against UGb Survival Painter and Affinity in swiss and against UGb Survival Painter again in the finals.

[Dark_Cynic87]

@ Trickbind: Damn.

@ Emidln: Nice.

In other news, I got a 1st turn kill (rare for my list) the other day. Opening hand consisted of Doomsday, Top, 3x D. Rit, Fetchland, Chant. After I Doomsday'ed, I flipped the top card of my library, and it was a fetch. I could have gone off turn 2 protected. However, it didn't matter as the guy I was playing was playing Ichorid, and I didn't need protection. I normally lose game one against ichorid, but almost always win games 2 and 3, this time I went 2-0 against him. I was happy.

Pce,

--DC

[Brehn]

On Street Wraith: I've been testing a setup suite of 3 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm, 3 Mystical, 4 Top, 0 LDV and 2 Street Wraith. And I'm impressed. I feel like whenever I have a Street Wraith in hand (instead of another setup spell), my goldfish turn is decreased by one.

On Infernal Tutor: I'm still playing with 1 main, but it's been a looooong time since I've cast it. Moving it to the board seems like a good idea, I don't know if I can find room for a second IGG though.

On Serenity vs. Grudge: I'm sticking with Serenity. It's just so much more powerful.

On Massacre vs. Slaughter Pact: Today I've had a situation with Gaddock Teeg AND Meddling Mage in play against UGw Thresh. Slaughter Pact. Especially if you're playing Pyroclasm or Echoing Truth.

On emidln's manabase: I've tested it a little bit and two islands were often a major annoyance. I'd go -1 Island +1 Underground Sea or Tundra.

[Jaiminho]

On Infernal Tutor: I'm still playing with 1 main, but it's been a looooong time since I've cast it. Moving it to the board seems like a good idea, I don't know if I can find room for a second IGG though.

When I took out the exceding Cabal Rituals and reduced Infernal Tutor to one, it seemed like the deadest card in the deck. I've renegated it to my binder again, but discard decks might force me to sleeve it back for the sideboard along with the 2nd IGG. It's too tight there, though.

On Massacre vs. Slaughter Pact: Today I've had a situation with Gaddock Teeg AND Meddling Mage in play against UGw Thresh. Slaughter Pact. Especially if you're playing Pyroclasm or Echoing Truth.

I'm still pondering on this. What's the advantage of Slaughter Pact over Massacre aside from not having Swamp and comboing from Petal or from LED mana through cantrip? Instant speed surprise kill while commiting to giving yourself a time walk? Or the opportunity to take out a Magus of the Moon?

On emidln's manabase: I've tested it a little bit and two islands were often a major annoyance. I'd go -1 Island +1 Underground Sea or Tundra.

I've always felt as if those 2 Islands were the strongest part of the mana base. I've been keeping it there since day one and I can only see myself taking them out if I really need a different dual land in that slot.

[rsaunder]

I've been running the 1 IT+2 IGG in the MD. I think my list plays a few more rituals than yours, but that's been the best singleton slot in the deck.

Slaughter pact is good because:
A.) Kills Magus
B.) Works in a DDay stack all of the time; even if you don't have the swamp
C.) Although a somewhat less likely reason, is a better kill spell just for general usage (i.e., kills goyf)

And if I ran a 17th land, it would probably be another sea. Having 2 basic islands is nice, but I've been screwed in more than a couple situations when I needed to fetch something else that produced U/B.

[Jaiminho]

B.) Works in a DDay stack all of the time; even if you don't have the swamp

This is what I meant about LED + cantrip and Petal allowing to play B without actually having a swamp. There's no other possible way to do it that doesn't involve bizarre cards from your opponent.

[Omega]

some maths....

sdt + sdt + helm + grape = 5 mana kill. Or...
Helm, sdt sdt + grape = 3 mana kill.

I just read the last few posts quickly and i am not sure why the Grapeshot is sb. Does it has potential as MD?

The only downside i can see is that it requires 4 specific cards (unlike DD pile, that requires only some rituals and DD and draw).

Maybe a quick explanation would be nice. I am thinking about building a FT myself. The deck look intense. And i am always looking for a challenge.

Would you recommend me going to a tournament unprepared, with no experience with it? It's not a major tournament, so i dont mind losing. but will i lose too badly? I am mainly a ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh player.

thank you all for help

Robert

[thefreakaccident]

This deck is probably the most difficult deck to pilot in the format... simple playtesting is not an option... just get as many good players as you can, and play full matches with them until you feel comfortable, but don't get frustrated.

I have only ever played this deck 6 times in actual tournament play to date, 5 of those times were first place finishes at around 15-22 people, and one was a third place finish .


It is funny, as you actually want to play against blue decks, as it is the only challenging thing you can find, and the most fun to play against (if you have practice).


EDIT: BTW, I have been playing a build that seems to be totally ancient technology... I just perfer the Igg loop... I always liked both DDay and Igg as one ofs in the MD (maybe a two of of one of them), and I always ran a high cantrip count and Mtutors...

Can I see your build emidln?

Has this basically turned into a DDAY deck now?

In a meta of agro and black agro-control, which variant is stronger? Why?

Answers are greatly appreciated.

[emidln]

some maths....

sdt + sdt + helm + grape = 5 mana kill. Or...
Helm, sdt sdt + grape = 3 mana kill.

I just read the last few posts quickly and i am not sure why the Grapeshot is sb. Does it has potential as MD?

The only downside i can see is that it requires 4 specific cards (unlike DD pile, that requires only some rituals and DD and draw).

Maybe a quick explanation would be nice. I am thinking about building a FT myself. The deck look intense. And i am always looking for a challenge.

Would you recommend me going to a tournament unprepared, with no experience with it? It's not a major tournament, so i dont mind losing. but will i lose too badly? I am mainly a ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh player.

I don't consider the interactions all that rough anymore, but without some previous combo (or combo-like) experience (particularly something nonlinear like Meandeck Gifts, Next Level Doomsday, or IT) you probably will want to get in some practice first. The actual Doomsday piles themselves are pretty easy (with the standard ones being used at least 95% of the time), the tricky part is blending the cantrips and tutoring to combo out with speed against an actual opponent. Knowing your outs to common threats, knowing what decks will bring in against you (and consequently what to sb yourself), and understanding how to hide cards with Brainstorm, Ponder, and Top are all general skills that are required to win with this deck. If you're playing cards like Lim-Dul's Vault, building your deck appropriately to take advantage of it (for instance, with Infernal Tutor) will win you games, as will an open mind considering what cards you need to win the game. (LDV is hands down the most difficult part of the deck to play optimally.) I have some hints in a partially finished primer on mtgsalvation. You should probably read it.

Grapeshot isn't bad main, but it's probably not necessary. It's best when played in conjunction with LDV (providing you an alternate win condition that you can "accidentally" assemble quite often).

[Dark_Cynic87]

In a meta of aggro and black agro control, I suppose my question is how much control? Do you see hymns and targeted discard everywhere, or is it just some? Doomsday/Top lists are ideal for discard heavy metas, but they goldfish slower than IGG/SW versions. I used to goldfish turn 2 with my IGG/SW version about 80% of the time, but now I goldfish turn 4 with Doomsday, sometimes as late as turn 7 depending on the scenario I set myself up for.

I'd pick a Doomsday version. You may get a second opinion, but I think I'm right.

Pce,

--DC

[emidln]

I've found that if you're goldfishing turn 4, it's always because of poor decisions with tutors/cantrips. This usually has to do with not recognizing stacks that only require one acceleration. With my 4 Doomsday, 4 Duress, 4 Chant list, I'm goldfishing consistently on turn 3.

[Brehn]

I'm still pondering on this. What's the advantage of Slaughter Pact over Massacre aside from not having Swamp and comboing from Petal or from LED mana through cantrip? Instant speed surprise kill while commiting to giving yourself a time walk? Or the opportunity to take out a Magus of the Moon?

Advantages of Slaughter Pact:
1) Slaughter Pact is not affected by Gaddock Teeg. While it's usually not necessary to kill Gaddock himself, there are some decks which can play Gaddock + Meddling Mage or Gaddock + True Believer.
2) Slaughter Pact can kill random creatures at instant speed without having untapped lands. Magus of the Moon, Phyrexian Dreadnought, all-in Arcbound Ravager, suddenly lethal Countryside Crusher, suddenly hellbent Rakdos Pit Dragon, Tarmogoyf, ...

I like having an "insurance" and I've even played with a single Pact maindeck (in the Extirpate slot). In any of the above cases you're "timewalking" yourself (that's not too accurate since you pay 2B to kill a threat that has cost 2R/1U/2+x/1RR/2RR/1G), but you're also not losing.

Advantages of Massacre:
1) Massacre can be used as an out to EtW-Tokens. But: it costs 2BB and is therefore inferior to Echoing Truth and Pyroclasm.
2) Massacre can kill multiple hate creatures (Meddling Mage, True Believer, Glowrider) for free.
3) Massacre kills Argothian Enchantresses.

It's been a huge while since I've seen True Believer or Glowrider. For multiple Meddling Mages, Massacre is better, but often you just have to kill the one that's naming Doomsday to win. And even if you have to kill 2 or more, you're still playing Rushing River.

[GreenOne]

In a meta of agro and black agro-control, which variant is stronger? Why?

In such a meta, I'd play the full acceleration suite and less doomsdays.
Something like this:
// Lands
2 [A] Underground Sea
1 [ST] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [MM] Island (3)
1 [U] Scrubland
1 [U] Tundra
1 [P3] Plains (1)

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [A] Dark Ritual
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
3 [TE] Lotus Petal
2 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
4 [LRW] Ponder
1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
2 [6E] Doomsday
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [AL] Lim-Dul's Vault

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away /discard/creature kill
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 1 [OV] Abeyance
SB: 3 [WL] Serenity
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [PS] Rushing River
SB: 2 slots for an alternate kill: Brain Freeze+ETW or Helm+Grapeshot

Cabal ritual is very good against discard. SDT sets up your draws and hides cards. The Infernal tutors+petals allows you to go off on turn 1/2 more often with IGG (against discard you don't have to worry about FoW). Confidants in the SB are godsend against black. the 2 doomsdays still allows you to easily overcome Leyline and other annoying things.

The mana base is really stable, making you almost wasteland-proof. The artifact acceleration is also good against black if they aim at your lands with sinkhole/vindicate/pox and the like. That's another reason to run petals.

If there are no counterspells at all in your meta, just play less chants and more discard and -1 wipe away +1 Echoing Truth/Rushing river.

[Brehn]

If "black aggro control" means Deadguy-ish/Pox-ish decks and not UGb Thresh/UBx Fish, this is a sketch of with what I'd start testing:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
3 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Street Wraith
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Mystical Tutor
3 Infernal Tutor
2 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Doomsday
1 Infernal Contract
1 Meditate
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Duress
2 Orim's Chant
1 Echoing Truth/Wipe Away

Sideboard:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Serenity
2 Doomsday
2 Orim's Chant
1 Helm of Awakening
1 Grapeshot
1 Rushing River
1 Wipe Away


Notable differences to GreenOne's proposition:
> 2 Ill-Gotten Gains. Against discard-based Decks you really want to be able to go off with the Infernal->IGG->Infernal->IGG chain. This requires 2 IGG in your deck.
> Meditate. Black Aggro-Control and Aggro often use land destruction, so you usually fetch for your basic Island pretty early. When your going off with the standard stack this basic Island will be dead far too often if you don't have access to Meditate. Also, Meditate doesn't require paying half your life again after Doomsday, which is important against aggro featuring burn spells.
> No Lim-Dul's Vault. It stretches your manabase and it sucks against aggro. Testing showed me that a second turn LDV usually doesn't set up a turn 3 kill, but rather a turn 4 kill. This is not what you want to do against aggro and decks with discard. LDV is best against blue-based control.
> Street Wraith. It's good against discard if you're able to draw 2 relevant cards after your hand has been torn apart, and it's pretty good against aggro because it frequently speeds up your goldfish.
> The distribution of 3 Infernal/2 IGG/1 Doomsday is basically what earlier DDFT lists looked like, -1 Infernal. Maybe you can fit the fourth Infernal in. On the other hand, maybe it's correct to go -2 Infernal +2 Doomsday.

Edit to answer more questions:

Can I see your build emidln?

here

Has this basically turned into a DDAY deck now?

Yes. The IGG-Loop always had the problem of a) graveyard dependancy, b) sucking against counters without a previously resolved Chant. It has become a secondary kill at the moment the IGG-Count in the maindeck was reduced to 1, because a lethal Loop usually requires 2 Ill-Gotten Gains to be cast; it has become an emergency backup plan at the moment the Infernal-Count in the maindeck was reduced to 1, because with only 1 Infernal you can't even chain IGG->LED,LED,Infernal->Infernal->Infernal->ToA to do at least some additional storm; and I can see it becoming either a sideboard plan or not a plan at all in the future. When I'm actually playtesting (and not goldfishing) my 1 IGG+1 Infernal-list, in ~90% of the cases I'm casting Ill-Gotten Gains I've cast Doomsday before.

[emidln]

Yes. The IGG-Loop always had the problem of a) graveyard dependancy, b) sucking against counters without a previously resolved Chant. It has become a secondary kill at the moment the IGG-Count in the maindeck was reduced to 1, because a lethal Loop usually requires 2 Ill-Gotten Gains to be cast; it has become an emergency backup plan at the moment the Infernal-Count in the maindeck was reduced to 1, because with only 1 Infernal you can't even chain IGG->LED,LED,Infernal->Infernal->Infernal->ToA to do at least some additional storm; and I can see it becoming either a sideboard plan or not a plan at all in the future. When I'm actually playtesting (and not goldfishing) my 1 IGG+1 Infernal-list, in ~90% of the cases I'm casting Ill-Gotten Gains I've cast Doomsday before.

This is basically correct here. I do Mystical Tutor up IGG a lot, but it's mostly to use it as a Regrowth x3 against discard which will almost immediately set up Doomsday ftw. As far as becoming a doomsday deck, this deck is very much a storm combo deck. I win about 80% of my games by resolving Doomsday, but there is a very real possibility of using Draw4s/accel/IGG/Sensei's Top x2/whatever you have to setup a Tendrils or Grapeshot kill. That extra 20% is very circumstantial, but count for wins anyway.

[Omega]

I just finished a compilation by going through informations of my metagame. Ive excluded all random decks

ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh 10
landstill 8
Burn 6
slivers 4
Goyf sligh/zoo 4
belcher 4
enchantress 3
suicide/mono black 3
rock 3
baseruption 3
survival 2
FetchlandTendrils 2
Goblin 2
stax 2
Dreadnought deck 2
elves 2
43lands.deck 2
slide 2
Aggro loam 1
iggy pop 1
breakfast 1
truffle-shuffle 1
painter.deck 1

As you can see, alot of Control deck (Threshold and Landstill)
dont get fooled by the numbers. Not all lists were competitive
Alot of burn too (burn and goyfsligh). Life loss seem a big disadvantage here

I could use any tips as of what cards to use for SB and some SB strategy. Should i use the same list Emidin plays? (Thnx for the link)

thank you

Robert

[Dark_Cynic87]

I've found that if you're goldfishing turn 4, it's always because of poor decisions with tutors/cantrips. This usually has to do with not recognizing stacks that only require one acceleration. With my 4 Doomsday, 4 Duress, 4 Chant list, I'm goldfishing consistently on turn 3.

As far as I can recognize, it's simply bad luck. I can open a hand with 2 fetches and a blue source and 2-3 cantrips and by turn 3 not have a tutor or a doomsday. I normally have chant or some other disruption in hand along with more than enough mana accel (I haven't gone down to 1x Cabal Ritual).

My list looks like yours other than:
-1 Badlands
-4 Duress

+3 Cabal Ritual
+1 Infernal Tutor
+1 Tendrils of Agony

Do you not ever need to Double-Tendrils any more?

Btw, how do I stack to win with a Brainstorm cantrip? I guess I just have to use 2x D. Rit Instead of LEDs? Does the removal of 3x Cabal Rit make it more difficult to not have a top in play and still go off? Also, another real problem that keeps occuring at least for me is with the removal of IT, I now have a huge problem not being able to find Top.

LMK if there's something I'm doing fundementally wrong. I can't seem to goldfish faster than turn 4.

Pce,

--DC

[Brehn]

Btw, how do I stack to win with a Brainstorm cantrip?

The most common ones are:

Brainstorm + 2 Cards in hand, UU
-> Brainstorm, LED, LED, IGG, Tendrils

Brainstorm + 2 Cards in Hand + LED on table, U
-> Brainstorm, Petal, LED, IGG, Tendrils

Brainstorm in Hand, 2UU/UBBB
-> Meditate/Contract, Petal, Dark Rit, Dark Rit, Tendrils

Does the removal of 3x Cabal Rit make it more difficult to not have a top in play and still go off?

The usual stacks don't include Cabal Ritual. The only thing that's more difficult is to reach the amount of mana needed for going off - but that's true for any stack, with or without Top.

I've found that if you're goldfishing turn 4, it's always because of poor decisions with tutors/cantrips. This usually has to do with not recognizing stacks that only require one acceleration. With my 4 Doomsday, 4 Duress, 4 Chant list, I'm goldfishing consistently on turn 3.

This has to be a straight lie. I don't know what you mean with "consistently", but for me it means ~90%. And that's simply not possible. I'm goldfishing until turn 4 90%, but my turn 3 percentage is between 60% and 70%, depending on the list. I don't think it's because I don't know my stacks. This deck only plays 3-4 real tutors. Do you count "Chantwalks" as -1 turn, or does your goldfish start at 18 life? Then I can see where "consistently" comes from.

[Jaiminho]

Brainstorm + 2 Cards in hand, UU
-> Brainstorm, LED, LED, IGG, Tendrils

Improve this by switching Brainstorm with Top. You get a 1U requirement instead of UU. The same kill is possible if you make the same pile, but with Brainstorm on top, while having Top on the board. You simply spin Top and end up with the exact same state.

[rsaunder]

I think Brehn was giving some examples of brainstorm stacks, although the one with top is really pretty.

EDIT: I'm getting similar "lethal turn" results to Brehn. 4th turn is happening way too much for me.