Mathematics and Magic Players

[thefreakaccident]

It seems to me that most magic players are also high-level mathematicians...

Is it just me, or is there a correlation here?

Magic is a game of math, with many calculations, simple statistics, and other undeterminable variables.


Is this game more attractive for those mathematically inclined?


A good example to the contrary is my friend, and teammate Colton Geneva, who is one of the funniest guys you could ever know, and isn't a terrible player, but he happens to totally suck at math, but he is the only person I know for this to be true.


I myself happen to be more mathematically inclined however, as it is the only topic I actually enjoyed (until Calc my junior year).

So, I guess it boils down to this:

Since this is a game of math, does it attract people who are good at math?

[Skeggi]

Since this is a game of math, does it attract people who are good at math?

Yes. Not saying I'm good at it, I have computers to do my math

[Nightmare]

Many of the people who enjoy this game are mathematically gifted, yes. If you boil the game down, cutting out all the flavor entirely, the game itself is pure mathematics, which is why some people delve into that aspect so deeply.

[Peter_Rotten]

I hate math. I'm terrible at. In fact, sometimes I'll just blindly swing my critters into combat because I don't feel like adding in my head.

The flavor and D&D feel attracted me to the game. I think the poker-like bluffing and watered down chess-strategy keeps me playing.

But to hell with the math.

[montanhas18]

I started playing Magic about ten years ago. Watched people playing the game in a dozen different countries (watched = reporter at GPs, PTs and Euros). To this day we still get a good laugh out of something we witnessed in those first months playing the game: a high school kid sitting down to play the game with a calculator at his side... because he was playing Pox.

A third. "Round up each time."

[Dan Turner]

There is a really good article from about 15 years ago called "The Mathamatics of Magic The Gathering" I will see if I can find it on the net or if not I have a copy saved on one of my backup hard drives. I have been thinking of re-vamping it for the way magic is played now since strategy and card draw as well as the way we mulligan has come a long way in 15 years.

And by the way I am a total math geek.

[smoky squirrel]

I have one year to go before I get my PhD in Pure Mathematics. So yeah, make of it what you want :) When I got the time I will put my effort in writing some comprehensive mathematical strategy articles about Magic.

[Nihil Credo]

I'm finishing my 3rd university year in mathematics, and what brought me back to Magic and then into serious play (after a brief casual period back in 2000) was finding all those fascinatingly complex strategy articles around the net.

[Taurelin]

Might be true. I, for example, am a teacher of Mathematics. And I do particularly adore decks like Solidarity. But on the other hand, the maths you need for playing Solidarity is something you learn in 7th grade (y = 3*x). And I don't calculate statistics while mulliganning or playing spells.

Maybe it's rather a general mathematic way of thinking, since Magic also follows the rules of logic very much. And as mathematicians we probably have something like an intuitive affinity for that.

Sadly, this advantage is neutralized by my lack of psychological skill (mental gaming). I would also be a lousy poker player.

[Skeggi]

Might be true. I, for example, am a teacher of Mathematics.

Well, you know what people say: "Those who can't, teach." So I guess you're another exception on the rule

[Finn]

I hate math. I'm terrible at. In fact, sometimes I'll just blindly swing my critters into combat because I don't feel like adding in my head.

++

Actually, I am not terrible at it. But I don't like it. Calculating blocking scenarios and return attacks bores me, so I typically take a guess here as well. Oh yeah, and I am a math and programming teacher for profoundly gifted students. Go figure.

BTW, the game's rules are both mathematics and logic on its underbelly. I.e. "the stack" is a programming and computer software concept that functions essentially the same way the game uses it. And also, Mark Rosewater has gone into detail about the mathematical side of card design. But I think that it is a mistake to say that the game can be boiled down to numbers. On the creative facets there is so much more than that.

[Anusien]

Wait... you're telling me over-intellectual geeks are attracted to complex strategy games?

[Dan Turner]

FOUND IT:

http://www.kibble.net/magic/math.php

[freakish777]

It seems to me that most magic players are also high-level mathematicians...

I guess that depends on your definition of high-level mathematicians...

Under my definition of high-level mathematician, most magic players aren't.

[thefreakaccident]

Well, Me and most of my magic buddies are honors math students, with four of us having taken either AP Statistics or Calculus... and the others just being honors math students up until something like PreCal, or something to that extent.


The point was that I am finding that a good deal of magic players are in fact good at math in general... or at least, that is the correlation I have found with this sample (although, there is some bias here, as they are my group of friends, therefore similar intellectual capabilities/interests...).

[Lukas Preuss]

This:

I'm finishing my 3rd university year in mathematics...

and this:

Might be true. I, for example, am a teacher of Mathematics. And I do particularly adore decks like Solidarity.

I too am finishing my third year of university to become a math (and English and history) teacher. The complex mathematical aspect of the game fascinates me the most... one of the reasons why I really like Solidarity.

[jbmulder]

I do have a BA in math, but I don't play Magic because it's essentially a math game.

I do meticulously calculate the blocking/attacking numbers, though. I enjoy reading statistical breakdowns as well, but stats was always a weak point of mine. I'd like to work on that.

I enjoy the math involved in games a lot though. Especially in poker. However, it's no substitute for the moments when you just have to go with your instincts.

@squirrel:
What are you studying? My favorite math classes were always the pure math classes. Group theory ftw

[freakish777]

Well, Me and most of my magic buddies are honors math students, with four of us having taken either AP Statistics or Calculus... and the others just being honors math students up until something like PreCal, or something to that extent.


The point was that I am finding that a good deal of magic players are in fact good at math in general... or at least, that is the correlation I have found with this sample (although, there is some bias here, as they are my group of friends, therefore similar intellectual capabilities/interests...).

Sure, that's probably reasonable. Claiming "high-level mathematicians" though isn't (I definitely don't define high school level math classes, AP or not, as high level, if you're doing grad work in Math, then I'd consider it high level, and for the record, I hold no degrees in Mathematics). That doesn't mean you and your friends aren't good at math.

[Deep6er]

I'm ludicrously fucking terrible at math.

Not going to lie here, but I failed fucking Geometry. No lies. Also had a devil of a time in Algebra 2.

I calculate scenarios for blocking and attacking just fine, but when it comes down to statistics, I'm pretty awful.

I would say that Solidarity wasn't really based off of mathematical principles as much as it was based off of keeping things straight. Knowing how much mana you had floating, how many spells were played, and how many cards your opponent had left in his library were slightly less valuable than playing around your opponent's hate. Then, when you went off under a high stress scenario, it was more a logic puzzle that also included elements of math.

Seriously though, I'm terrible at math, and I hate it. Fuck math.

[Nightmare]

I'm ludicrously fucking terrible at math.

Not going to lie here, but I failed fucking Geometry. No lies. Also had a devil of a time in Algebra 2.

I calculate scenarios for blocking and attacking just fine, but when it comes down to statistics, I'm pretty awful.

I would say that Solidarity wasn't really based off of mathematical principles as much as it was based off of keeping things straight. Knowing how much mana you had floating, how many spells were played, and how many cards your opponent had left in his library were slightly less valuable than playing around your opponent's hate. Then, when you went off under a high stress scenario, it was more a logic puzzle that also included elements of math.

Seriously though, I'm terrible at math, and I hate it. Fuck math.

This just in - I'm more asian than Dave Gearhart.

You've failed your racial profile, Dave.