I don't know if Tier 2+ Decks are considered in this discussion, but in my Opinion Extirpate is created for Pox.
A slow controlish Deck that has the ability to put every single card of an opposing deck into the graveyard, and then extirpate it. (I'm not speaking of maindecking it, because the card has certainly a different degree of effectiveness against the different decks.)
Extirpate against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh can be nuts, because of the small number of relevant cards it plays. If you take one of their creatures, or their splash color dual, or swords, or whatever hurts you most you can seriously cripple their deck, because all cantripping around wont bring them back their cards. And nobody can tell me that ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh isn't able to draw multiples of a single card in a midrange to late game with all their tops, brainstorms etc.
Extirpating a warchief or piledriver can also be a big relief, because the amount of pressure goblins can apply then decreases dramatically. And they also can easily draw into multiple copies of those cards with ringleaders, or search for it with matrons.
What I agree on is that extirpate as a standalone is a bad sideboard choice against ichorid. It only makes sense in decks that run different hate as well, like mass removal (deed, damnation, explosives) or other relevant hate (for example engineered plague)
In Aggro Decks like Eva Green, leyline seems to be the better choice.
Ringleader into Balloon Brigade, Digging Team, Artisans, Snowman.
It is simply a sideboard card against certain decks that gives you the ability to remove up to 4 key threats from Hand/Library/Graveyard.
The return of a Legend(in his own words)
Is Cremate useful? For the people who don't know the card: Instant, B, Remove a card in target graveyard from the game, draw a card.
I never see it and I'm not sure how good it is, but if you think this card isn't playable, it's pretty unlikely extirpate is. 3 cards out of someone's library vs a card? I'd know what I'd choose. The fact that it's counterable seems kind of insignificant. Like: who would FoW that? Maybe on a Loam, but who plays Loams AND FoW's.
Team Nijmegen
I agree: you win wars of attrition and can often beat even better control decks like 4 color landstill if you find your extirpates before they do (I've run into them although not everyone playing landstill uses them, obviously).don't know if Tier 2+ Decks are considered in this discussion, but in my Opinion Extirpate is created for Pox.
To be "good" against Factory, you need to kill it first (probably Wastelanded)Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
To be "good" against EDragon, you need to have the opponent cycle it first or you have to kill it.
To be "good" against Decree of Justice, well, Decree has to be in the yard. If Decree is in the yard, it was very very likely cycled for a bunch of soldiers marching on your grill.
Extirpate doesn't solve a single one of those cards. Each card was able to be used - a to produce a likely useful effect - before it gets Extirpated.
Extirpate is amazing at denying specific threats to a combo deck. I use it for this reason in FT. In FT, it takes hard counters out of the equation allowing me to resolve Orim's Chant/Abeyance and win the game from there. It's also useful for the Peek effect in the control matchup. As for other uses, it's good at stalling vs Ichorid (specifically, if you can extirpate Cabal Therapies or Narcomoebas) for enough time to combo out. I did win agame once due to Extirpating a fetch out of my deck for the shuffle effect I've won games due to forcing my opponent to shuffle their deck with CB/Top in play. I'm sometimes able to KGrip + Extirpate enemy combo decks out of the game as well.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
And I bet for every time you did that you lost 5 games to extirpate being a waste of a card.
It's very good for you.
No they do not. Ichorid must find a proactive answer to Extirpate (a discard spell) as opposed to reactive answers to Crypt/Leyline (Chain/Neelde). Furthermore (this is a minor argument, so don't focus too much on it), with the most played discard spell in that deck (Therapy) there is a non zero chance they whiff against Extirpate in game 2 if they don't know what hate you brought in (while I think if you play Crypt you should play it immediately against Ichorid, not everyone does).However, Leyline and Crypt force the same issue. They have to slow down until they find an answer to it.
A key difference here is that if you do not draw Leyline or Crypt in your opening 7 but those 7 are playable, and Ichorid draws its answers to Leyline/Crypt, they haven't been slowed down at all (because they simply drop Needle naming Crypt, or worse still they just go off because they don't see Leyline). However if you're playing Extirpate and they draw the Therapy, when do they play it? Do they play it immediately? If you didn't draw the Extirpate, they whiff, think they're in the clear and start going nuts. If you then proceed to draw Extirpate you still get the utility out of the card (not the case with Crypt when they just drop Needle on it).
When you do draw the cards, Leyline is worse because it forces you to mulligan to find it, resulting in losses because they just Chain it while you're sitting around wishing you'd mulled to 5 to try and find Leyline, Force, and a blue card over the 6 you kept with just Leyline. Tormod's is worse because it can be played around (Putrid + Dredgers in hand means they rebuild).
There is no rebuilding from Extirpate. Those cards are gone.
Extirpate only needs to hit one relevant target.However, Extirpate is guaranteed to only hit ONE relevant target.
Again. Wrong. First, who says Extirpate is the only (graveyard) hate card I'm bringing in? Second, no, they really can't overwhelm you with what's left over after you Extirpate a Bridge/Ichorid, and overwhelming you without Narco is feasible but harder. Especially not if you've built correctly and have other general answers (Swords/Bolt for the first Ichorid/Narco, EE for zombie tokens, Deed for zombie tokens, if they slow roll against Deed, you eventually get to use it for 2 against Narcos, or 4 against Ichorids, hit Bridges with Extirpate, ok cool I'll land Plague naming Horror, good luck trying to beat me with Narcos and Dread Return, Extirpate Ichorid/Narco with Mogg Fanatic in play, which is far stronger than playing Crypt with Fanatic in play). Third, the second Crypt can still be rebuilt from. After the second Extirpate the game is literally over.That means in game three (when they know that Extirpate is the only graveyard hate you have), they can just go as fast as possible, because getting Bridges/Narcomoebas/Ichorids will overwhelm your Extirpate(s). Thus, weakening the card.
You're focusing on the hate cards like they're silver bullets, and this is incorrect. The hate cards for Ichorid should simply be part of an overall scheme to out "relevant card" them (just like any other matchup).
Aside: Trump very seldom exists in this format (due to the existance of Sinkhole, Wasteland, Moon effects, and Wizards typically pricing cards mana costs fairly), it definitely doesn't exist against Ichorid since they can answer every hate card.
Back on track: Only your relevant cards have to remove their relevant cards from the game. Bridge is the most relevant card in their deck. It enables the explosive combo kill. It enables savage beats, and endless chumpblocks if the dredge Ichorids.
This is where your argument hinges, and ultimately where it breaks down.or you'll blow one and they'll continue to draw five or six cards a turn.
Those 5 or 6 cards a turn become significantly worse without the cards that now aren't in their deck/graveyard.
Ichorid is a good card. It's significantly worse without Bridge from Below (ie, it's manageable with Goyf/Swords/Grim Lavamancer/Plague/etc, eventually they run out of black creatures or you run into another hate card).
Narcomoeba is an Ok card. It's terrible without Bridge from Below (at best it beats for 1 a turn, Flashes back Therapy, or with 2 other creatures brings back a sizable GGT which eats Swords anyways).
Bridge from Below is rediculous. It's worse without Narcomoeba (any free creature that doesn't recur) and it's downright terrible without Ichorid.
If you disagree with the above 6 sentences, than I'm left to believe that Parcher and Anwar have "talked you into" losing against them (convinced you that Ichorid is an unwinnable match, when it is winnable) to boost their own prizes and prolong the playability of the deck.
With Leyline yes, they must find a Chain or hope Putrid gets there (not happening). With Crypt, it's temporary, as they'll simply apply enough pressure to force you to blow it, and then rebuild with the dredger still in their hand.With Leyline/Crypt, it's much harder because they don't have the ability to "draw" as many cards as they can normally.
No argument there. My point was simply that Leyline is terrible.Also, I think for the example that you used, Shady should have definitely been playing Crypt. Leyline is difficult to replay for decks that don't have access to Dark Ritual, and I generally advise that decks that can't quickly replay Leyline should be playing Crypt because dealing with Pithing Needle is generally easier than dealing with 2BB.
What are you targetting with it?I'm glad that you haven't lost to Ichorid with Extirpate yet. I've lost enough for both of us. Coming close to forty or so times. Out of about sixty games. Extirpate is not enough. Experience tells me this.
One final point about Extirpate and Therapy. If they have yet to bin Bridges/Narcos/Ichorids and have binned a dredger and they Therapy you, and you're sitting on Extirpate and, you shouldn't respond. There is a nonzero chance that they misread and name Swords/EE/Deed/Goyf/etc instead forcing them to draw/dredge another Therapy (and if they somehow haven't dredged a target by then, then you can respond and take out Therapies).
EDIT:
Having played against emidln, I'd bet you're wrong.
I agree that a lot of players lose by playing their own cards incorrectly (Extirpate specifically), I don't think emidln is one of them.
Some empirical data:
I have lost to Ichorid after removing their bridges. I have won with Ichorid after having my bridges removed.
I have lost to Ichorid after Extirpating Ichorid. I have won with Ichorid after having my Ichorids Extirpated.
I have never lost to Ichorid after successfully Crypting them. I have never been crypted and won while playing Ichorid.
I'm not saying these are the ultimate scenarios or deal make- or breakers. I'm just giving you some background.
I've found, on the whole, that there are 4 cards that answer Crypt in the Ichorid player's arsenal - 4x Needle. There are up to 8 that answer Leyline - 4x Chain, and 2-4 Ray of Rev or Emerald Charm. Both of these cards basically wreck the matchup in your favor if unanswered. Both can be countered, and the Needle can be EE'd, which you should be bringing in anyway.
There are between 4 and 8 answers to Extirpate - 4x Therapy, up to 4x Unmask. You can counter them, certainly.
Let's say that the Ichorid player has the ability to draw 1x relevant spell in its opener, but if it does, the fastest it can win is turn 3. I realize this is optimistic, but I think its accurate enough to work with. So, you have one hate card also. In almost EVERY situation, I would rather have Crypt than any other card in this situation.
Play against lands. Dont extirpate thier LFTL, and win without price of progress/combo kill. Extirpate is either game breaking or totaly terrible.
Although i sopose it could be good vs decks like say "its the fear" because when they go "Intuition at your EOT for Deed, deed, deed" or "CB,CB,CB" you can extirpate them still at end of turn. It isnt useless but it definately isnt as strong as some seem to think it is. This actualy would bring up a question "is cranial extraction playable?"I still think not (unless you duress them and use it as an expensive mega discard spell.)
EDIT: although prehaps extracting tendrils on turn 2 in demon stompy could be the answer to stomping storm combo.
I c h o r i d - my anti blue
Manaless Ichorid- At least its cheeper than standard.
We admit for the sake of the exercise that following is true:
Landstill > Fromat
Non-Basic Hate > Landstill
Basics > Non-Basic Hate
We can therefore logically conlude that
Basics > Format
When I see Extirpate, I invariably win the game. It's just that good when you don't completely suck building magic decks and playing magic decks. I can't actually remember the last time I boarded in Extirpate, saw it, and lost. Extirpate really is a house against blue-based control for combo decks. I don't board in Extirpate when unnecessary because I understand what my role is in matchups.
Against Aggro Loam, I have to win the game before my opponent deals lethal damage in a very quick manner. Extirpating LFTL doesn't stop the Terravore from smashing face. Consequently, I don't waste time boarding it in.
Against Ichorid, Extirpate pains with Orim's Chant to provide me enough time to go off in a manner free from cabal therapy. Extirpate stops Zombies from smashing my face by not allowing Zombies to get into play. It allows me to avoid losing my hand/chants to Cabal Therapy.
Against Landstill, I simply need to gain Chant advantage versus their hard counters and chant effects. Thus I use Duress and Extirpate to fish out Counterspell, Force of Will, and Orim's Chants until I resolve my own Chant unabated. I'm in it for the long haul here.
Against CB Aggro-Control, I'm looking to gain advantage by taking hard counters or counterbalances (meaning I won't need to find extra krosan grips). If I can make them go aggro, I'm in a much better position to resolve Chant and win the game.
Against non-CB U-based Aggro-Control, Extirpate functions very much like it does against Landstill. I hit Force of Will and they can't stop Orim's Chant. It pairs nicely with Duress and extra Chant effects in this matchup.
Summary:
When I see Extirpate against blue, I win the game. When I see it against Ichorid, I win the game. I don't see it against anything else because I'm not stupid enough to board it in.
@ Undone
Extirpate on Tendrils won't beat TES or FT. Both have alternate win conditions in either ETW or Grapeshot and FT, the only one that needs to sb it in (TES has access to both main), brings it in against black decks anyway.
@ Nightmare
Chain of Vapor on Tormod's Crypt is another option. It's fairly viable (you can crypt in response, but the Ichorid player hasn't put anything worthwhile in the yard yet either) and happens quite a bit in Vintage. I'd consider any Ichorid player who doesn't see this as a suspect pilot.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
@Emidln: Chaining Tormod's Crypt would only be good if you could win that turn. Otherwise, they'll just replay it. Since you likely boarded out the combo, that's going to be difficult. If you have good enough cards in your 'yard to win in one turn, then they'll just Crypt you.
If Extirpate is so good, then why don't you play four? Your build (as of September 26th) only contains two. If you're guaranteed to win the game every time you see it, then you should be playing four.
Your arguments neglect to mention that losing a card is even more painful for a combo deck than it is for a control deck. Sure, if you hit Counterbalance with Krosan Grip or Duress then Extirpate it, you don't have to worry about Counterbalance. But, you're also down two cards. Against a deck playing Force of Will and Daze (possibly Thoughtseize as well). With a swift clock.
@Undone: I would still say that it's bad because the triple card happens pretty rarely. I would only do it if the board was particularly bad for me (triple Deed) or if the board was empty (triple Counterbalance). Neither of those situations strengthens the card. In most other situations, it's not really going to help.
@Nightmare: That is the exact same data that I have Nightmare. I agree wholeheartedly.
@Freakish: You're crafting the scenarios in a very biased manner. You're assuming that they always have the answer to Crypt/Leyline, but go retarded when you have Extirpate. That's an unfair representation. I could answer your biased scenarios by bringing up anecdotal evidence where Anwar has beaten Extirpate (in some cases double or even triple Extirpate) with Ichorid. Quite a few times, actually.
Extirpate being your only grave hate is a reasonable assumption. Why in the fuck would you have Crypt AND Extirpate? Or Leyline? Or Jailer? That doesn't make any goddamn sense. Plus, they can overwhelm you easily because they no longer have to shift their plan. You have few relevant cards, and they can go about their business waiting for you to do something mildly irritating. They don't have the same worries of Crypt or Leyline stopping their ENTIRE plan, but just have to deal with you hitting one card while they're still drawing six or so. That's a trade I'll make all the time. Plus, if they're Therapying and missing, yet you still have Plague, what kind of Ichorid player are we talking about? Since you're not stopping them from dredging, they're going to "draw" more cards than you. Those cards include Cabal Therapy. Generally before turn 3. I've tried Extirpate and Engineered Plague. Generally doesn't work very well.
Those six sentences are pretty true. However, they are also misleading. You haven't said whether or not you would mulligan for Extirpate. Therefore, if your first couple turns are just using the good cards you already have, they're going to have full access to those good cards that Extirpate would hit. I would absolutely mulligan for Crypt/Leyline though. That's because those cards have a much bigger impact than Extirpate. What you're missing is the very important part where you won't always have Extirpate because mulliganing for it is awful.
Plus, there's quite a bit of evidence (anecdotal and otherwise) that indicates that they can still function as a shitty aggro deck that will beat you. Stinkweed Imp actually kills Tarmogoyf, while all of their creatures (with the exception of Golgari Grave Troll) are pretty cheap. They can just throw a ton of guys at you which will eventually get through or stabilize the board. Both scenarios are bad for you.
I've always targeted those cards mentioned. Except for one game where my opponent mulliganed to three and went land, Careful study, discard Grave Troll plus something useless. I Extirpated Grave Troll there. I still lost (I didn't get above two mana for the entire game). He beat me to death with Putrid Imp, Narcomoeba, Stinkweed Imp, and Ichorids. I Extirpated all but the one Narcomoeba that he hardcast, and all of his Bridges.
@Master C: What's important though is that Pox has to operate on limited resources. Losing a card is a big deal to them, and throwing out cards that don't affect the board/hand is going to be even more problematic. You already have so much card disadvantage that you're destroying your topdecking capabilities. Every Dark Ritual, and every Extirpate are bad draws when you're facing down a single creature and no board.
For the foreseeable future, expect to see less of me. I've lost my internet connection, and so I'll only be able to get on by siphoning free Wi-Fi from the surrounding areas. Which isn't always consistent.
Plus, the guy that I used to leech off of has now instituted password protection. This means that I effectively do not have internet at home. :(
With Ponder, Brainstorm, Sensei's Divining Top, and Mystical Tutor, I don't need four copies of Extirpate to see one in the games where I want to draw Extirpate. The clock of Threshold isn't really all that swift anyway, baring double goyf. Daze is completely worthless past countering turn 1 Top unless the combo deck is mana screwed to begin with (or the deck is packing both Stifle/Waste and CB/top, which is highly unlikely). Force of Will, moreso than CB, is the card Extirpate is meant to hit vs Threshold. CB are taken opportunistically, but Extirpate is fine if it only deals with Force of Will (leaving me only needing to find KGrip/Wipe Away to resolve Chant).
Being down two cards to be able to cantrip freely is a fine deal, one that I'll take anytime I'm given the option. Being able to optimize with cantrips and then only dealing with Force of Will/Stifle (given that you still have Duresses and Chants) is a far better situation than watching Threshold use an identical cantrip engine to land a second CB (and praying your second card, instead of extirpate, is another KGrip/Wipe Away).
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
They can also Ray the Crypt hardcast or off of FB. I was going to point the chain of vapor thing out, although it's much weaker in Legacy because you can't go like:
Bounce your hate end of turn, activate Bazaar, win off of a second bazaar activation during my upkeep.
@ Deep6er: You're obviously failing to see the forest in the trees. Obviously cards like extract are terrible. Obviously peek is awful. That proves nothing and we're both stupider for being forced to read your list of spells-that-do-1/100th-as-much-as-Extirpate.
"Grizzly Bears is a bad card. If you agree, why would you play Tarmogoyf? It's just a little bit better it's SOOOO conditional! Grizzly Bears is always there for you, but sometimes Tarmogoyf is just a 0/1.
I've never lost a game after resolving Grizzly Bears in a T1.5 game. My friends have never lost games after resolving Grizzly Bears in recent years. Everyone I know has lost dozens of games after resolving Tarmogoyfs. Clearly, Grizzly Bears > Tarmogoyf."
See how that statement is totally fucking meaningless? Well, mine's not, because it sarcastically points out the flaws in the previous arguments, but the previous arguments are arguing that sample sizes of like 10 games with questionable opponents and situations is a strong replacement for evidence.
Extirpate is more than just like a conditional counterspell or something with dubious impact on the game state. It's a combination of a number of factors that make it into a powerful card. Although individually those factors have a small (although non-zero) impact on the game, each adds another possible situation where the Extirpate player comes out on top and that eventually adds up to real card advantage. I can’t believe I have to point this out, but here goes (again):
If all Extirpate ever did was remove a single card in a graveyard from the game and then remove the three library copies, it would be a terrible card.
If all it did was let you see their hand, it'd be a terrible card.
If all it did was let you see what cards they boarded in or which tech cards to expect, it'd be a terrible card.
If all it did was hardcounter top tutors and hard intuitions, it'd be a terrible card.
If all it did was marginally mess up your opponent’s land to business ratio (and mana curve in general), it’d be a terrible card.
If it did nothing but was uncounterable, it'd be a hilarious and terrible card.
Fortunately it does all of those AND it gives the ~25-45% mean probability that they have extra cards in hand. Lets look at an example where you Extirpate Force of Will blind.
If they did not mulligan and Force of Will does not affect their mulligan habits at all (a slightly unfair statistical assumption, but bear with me) and they brainstormed to keep Force of Wills on turn 2 (so they've seen 7 starting cards + the draw on turn 2 + the brainstorm and kept every Force of Will), and they Force of Will your card not pitching the other Force of Will, there's a 33.3% mean chance that they have an extra Force of Will in hand that Extirpate knifes. (Yeah, the situation is pretty specific, but I wanted to start with a tangible value like 33%).
This is Extirpating blind, if you have something like you saw a card or two in your opponent's hand because your opponent dropped his cards shuffling or you can read your opponent, or you have Thoughtseize or Duress, the odds change go up in your favor for being able to grab a second copy.
Anyway, yeah, 33.3% chance to knife a card is not good. It’s horrible. I agree. But it does more than just 33.3% chance of duressing my opponent.
I also remove any chance that my opponent could counter my spells when he's tapped out. I also remove probably 50% of his countermagic entirely. The confidence that I can play with, knowing for a fact that he can do nothing while tapped out is worth a lot. I don't waste my time and my cards baiting the wrong spells. This makes the way I play better, just knowing that he could never ever have another Force of Will (except off of Cunning Wish, which would just make it the worst Counterspell every printed).
It also forces my opponent to compensate. He knows that I know that if he taps out, he's fucked. He also has half the expected counter magic. He can no longer afford to "throw away" counters at my strong-but-not-gamebreaking magic, and he's likely to lose most counterwars anyway. He also can’t afford to go balls-out on a mainphase play because it opens the door up for everything in my hand to come down. He probably can, but he might erroneously choose to play it safe, giving me free tempo.
Of course in addition to that (still for the low, low price of 67% of a card), I get to know exactly what's in his hand. If I see crap, I don't waste my Thoughtseize just yet. I know exactly which threat to counterspell (and I know exactly what his options are for the next turn (and most of his options for the next few turns). I could see that he did not have the threat support to ride a Goyf, and he was trying to bait into a Back to Basics. Also, if I see any card like Force Spike, Disrupt, Divert, Misdirection, you know -- the tricky shit, it'd save me AT LEAST 1 card because I could just play around the Disrupt the entire game. Or he might reveal two counterbalance and a sensei's divining top so I know to counter or get Grip ready.
A benefit I haven’t mentioned but that IS important is that Extirpating Force of Will increases his chance of drawing a land slightly. Against a 24 land opponent, if you extirpate non-land, he’ll draw 3% more lands than he expects (equivalent of running 2 extra land in the deck… like 26 land instead of 24 land). If you extirpate land, it’s doubly effective because he’s already fetched one (or you killed one), so his land count is already down and he could be in danger of mana screw. If you run 24 base and you lose four to extirpate, it’s the equivalent of running 19.5 land (and potential color screw).
Lastly (other than obscure things like time issues which rarely come up), I get to look through his entire deck and see if he boarded in anything tricky. He might have an alternative win con or I might find out that the Mana Leak that owned me game 1 and that I was playing around all of game 2 was a singleton, and that I shouldn’t worry about it. Or that he has Divert and Disrupt in for this game. Or that he boarded out his Swords and my factories are safe except vs. Keggers.
It’s really hard to quantify all this stuff, but don't pretend that there's a 0% chance that he has a second FoW in hand. And that there's a 0% chance that he has a critical surprise card like Daze, Force Spike, Disrupt in hand. And that there is a 0% chance that he is baiting for something (or just as importantly he’s not baiting for anything). And that there's a 0% chance that he has a combo that you weren't expecting. And that there’s a 0% chance that he boarded in anything fun. And that you never get an opportunity to really abuse Extirpate by knifing a Life from the Loam or Intuition or Tutor or Bridge or whatever else.
THOSE assumptions are completely ridiculous and they’re assumptions that almost everyone seems to take for granted about the Extirpate debate (which has boiled down to whether Tormod’s Crypt or Extirpate is stronger against Ichorid).
Somebody earlier pointed out that Extirpate is a card where it’s easy to see where it wins you the game and it’s hard to see where it loses you the game, and so that people way overvalue Extirpate.
I tend to think it’s the opposite. Sometimes you get a really flashy win off of it, but a lot of the wins are because you wrote down the contents of your opponent’s hand and used that information to help you develop a winning strategy, or you reduced your opponent’s deck’s synergy and cohesiveness in the long run, allowing you to win the slow battle of attrition (even though you started the race down a card).
Something funny jut happened, I lost to extripate on mws and decided to troll and found this. I think extripate is a good card against certain decks. In the instance that I lost I was playing tempo thresh and they extripated a goyf, leaving me with no more kill conditions.
I also have been playing Ichorid for a while, and have never been hindered enough to loose a game with one extripate. I have found that the extripate need backup, like a tormods or another extripate to hinder Ichorid enough to win.
summary:
+1 for extripate against deck that have few kill cons
-1 for extripate doing a great job against Ichorid
I don't have anything to bring to this discussion other than Extirpate is the new Lava Dart.
QFT. Man, this is an old skool reference.
The giant fucking problem with Extirpate is that it's not reliable. That makes it bad. Unreliable cards are bad as a rule. Leyline and Crypt do exactly what you want them to do; destroy graveyard based decks if they're not answered. Often the answering gives you the time you need to win anyway, because, hey, those cards are both free. It's a huge tempo swing at worst.
Also, Relic of Progenitus. It's not tempo-free, but damned that card looks sexy.
Grizzly Bears does what you want it to do, reliably. It's always a 2/2 beater. It's still terrible, but it does have the advantage of reliability.
Extirpate? You don't know what the fuck Extirpate is going to do. Maybe it removes the 4-of your opponent needs to win! Maybe you shuffle away some bad cards he couldn't get rid of with Top! Maybe you spend a card and a mana reducing the odds of him drawing a marginally relevant card (and perhaps increasing the chances of him drawing a more relevant card) for the remaining handful of turns before the game's over.
It's a coinflip card in disguise. You don't play Fiery Gambit, why the fuck would you play Extirpate?
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
The card is a real ass wooper if you know how to use it the right way or iuf you stick it in the right prototype.
I was even daring enough to slip in a full play set in my main prototype that everyone dismissed as always.
I'm weeping tears of apathy.
Extirpate is a strong card, there's no arguing that, but I absolutely love playing Leyline. It wrecks Survival. Keep in mind that I play funkbrew... I love dropping leyline forcing survival to get harmonic and kill it, while i vindicate or deed away their survival. It's not dead later on in the matchup either. I really like Leylione but that's me. I've thought about joining the extirpate club but I want to destroy Ichorid.
Nightmare: How fast was your kill after your ichorids and brisged were destroyed. That affects a lot of the arguability too.
This is my Signature
The first two are fairly easy, because as you point out Wasteland is a fixture in the format with even a higher presence in decks splashing black, and EDragon gets cycled a lot to get white mana on the table, particularly against decks playing Wasteland.
Decree of Justice is another story, although it gets cycled occasionally to provide chump blockers against a Goyf it can easily sit in the opponent's hand until forced out by events or emerges to win the game when the opponent has the upper hand.
My point on Extirpate against Landstill is that many decks that would employ Extirpate in that role are at a real disadvantage in the Landstill matchup and unlikely to win without some way of turning the tables in a big way and Extirpate represents one way to do that which is very hard to handle for a Landstill player.
I actually sided in Extirpates in my last tourney against Landstill and after winning game one I lost two in a row with two Extirpates in the mix, including a recurring Extirpate in game two that removed Force of Will, Decree of Justice and Eternal Dragon. The problem? No Wastelands in the two games and a Landstill player who would not put Mishra's at risk after seeing Extirpate used. A Wasteland in either game and I win the match but it just didn't happen. Not Extirpates fault, my fault for not having Ponders in the list, a late change that proved disastrous.
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