Extirpate is definitely a situational card that should be only included in SBs, if that. But has anyone tried abusing it with Isochron Scepter? I'm pretty sure that if coupled with discard and removal it might actually be pretty decent on a stick. But that's probably a horrible idea anyway.
For starters, let me say that my wireless network card at home is causing me issues so I can only reply at work. So I have to be brief (and likely come across as rude, they aren't meant to be), and won't get as many chances to respond as I'd like.
For the record this entire post pertains only to Extirpate vs. Ichorid.
You haven't been paying attention (re-read earlier posts).Originally Posted by Deep6er
Scenario 1. You draw hate, they don't draw an answer. I specifically said "Tormod's Crypt can be rebuilt from. There is no rebuilding from Extirpate, those cards are gone." Granted in that argument you aren't reducing them to nothing, but my previous argument stands, with Extirpate they 5~6 cards a turn (or more) they're seeing are significantly worse, with Tormod's the 5~6 cards they're seeing are just as good as before.
In this scenario, in my opinion Extirpate has a slight advantage over Crypt.
Scenario 2. You draw hate, they draw an answer that prevents your hate from doing anything.
In this scenario, in my opinion there's no difference, you get destroyed (hence it was left out of previous reasoning, I'm only interested in games where we can measure the differences).
Scenario 3. You don't draw hate in your opening hand (keep the hand) and then proceed to draw it later, they draw an answer. This is one of the scenarios I focused on because Extirpate has a tremendous advantage here. If they draw Needle, they play it. Nothing Crypt can do about that until you draw Deed/EE/Chain of Vapor/whatever, giving them the tempo your hate card is supposed to buy you. With a discard spell though, they're going to play it immediately, they aren't going to sit around waiting until they think you've drawn Extirpate, and if they do, you're playing it in response at that point.
In this scenario, in my opinion Extirpate has a monstrous advantage over Crypt.
Have you been paying attention to Ichorid in Extended? They have the exact same graveyard hate cards for it (Jailer, Extirpate, Crypt, Leyline). Just about every play in Extended is packing 8 SB cards if they want to beat Ichorid. Seeing as how we have Brainstorm, I've cut to 6.Extirpate being your only grave hate is a reasonable assumption. Why in the fuck would you have Crypt AND Extirpate? Or Leyline? Or Jailer?
Do you feel confident enough with a less than 40% chance of seeing your most relevant cards after a game 1 loss?
I'm not.
Ok, let's rank cards revelance, because I think you're undervaluing some staple cards against Ichorid.Plus, they can overwhelm you easily because they no longer have to shift their plan. You have few relevant cards, and they can go about their business waiting for you to do something mildly irritating.
Extirpate/Crypt/Leyline/Jailer are the most relevant cards in this match.
After those, Swords is very relevant because they force the opponent to dredge another Ichorid (or Narco is you had to off Narco first). Swords in conjunction with Extirpate can be extremely powerful. A hand like:
2 fetch, 2 Swords, Extirpate, etc
if you manage to Extirpate Ichorid should be hard to beat as you'll end up Swordsing 1 or 2 Narcos (or Putrid & Narco) in their draw step, preventing them from being able to make any sort of relevant token army. If you manage to Extirpate Bridges instead and Swords still solves Putrid and still keeps Ichorid off for good. I'm not interested in cards by themselves. I'm interested in 60 cards working together. Swords + Extirpate (where I can play in whichever order and likely maximize them, Extirpating a Narco and Swordsing an Ichorid, or whatever) > Swords + Crypt (where I have to wait to Crypt first, kinda like playing Wrath, then Swords afterwards).
Tarmogoyf while nowhere near as relevant as the hate or Swords still provides a blocker that Ichorid has to get around. 2 Goyfs + Extirpate on a Bridge can also be powerful as they now need to get in around your blockers. Tarmogoyf + Extirate (here you constantly block) just a little bit < Tarmogoyf + Crypt (here you Crypt and beat for a turn or two and then return to blocking).
EE/Deed in the worst case scenario where you activate them are a Fog (not very relevant). In conjunction with Extirpate on Ichorid, they are now a full on Wrath of God, or a Wrath that leaves them with a couple 2/2s (if you hit Narcos/Putrid with Deed). EE/Deed + Extirpate (they don't rebuild after Extirpate, making EE/Deed a Wrath) > EE/Deed + Crypt (they rebuild after Crypt, EE/Deed as a fog).
Leyline does in fact stop their entire plan (and forces an answer). Crypt does not. Crypt simply cause them to "combo twice." Now "comboing twice"/rebuilding is a pain, but it doesn't "stop their entire plan" in the long run.They don't have the same worries of Crypt or Leyline stopping their ENTIRE plan,
A decent Ichorid player will have at least 1 Dredger in his/her hand after you activate Crypt to get going again. You have yet to address this argument.
Not all card advantage is created equally. Let's say that without Extirpate having resolved, 3 of those 6 cards (50%) are relevant (10 dredgers, 4 Ichorids, 4 Bridges, 4 Narcos, 4 Therapies, 3~4 Deep Analysis, am I missing something? 29~30 cards we want in our graveyard, 13~14 of which are only good for putting more cards in our bin and don't directly affect the board or opponent's hand, they indirectly affect it if they mill "something good"). Taken to the extreme, if I Extirpate Bridge, Ichorid, and Narcomoeba, you really should not care one bit how many cards Ichorid dredges a turn. Clearly we don't (typically) play in extreme situations, however that doesn't change the fact that with 4 Ichorids/Bridges/Narcos taken out of the equation that of those 6 cards, we're now only at 44% of them being things that are useful in our bin, and on top of that, one fourth of the "something goods" (Bridge/Ich/Narco/Therapy) can't be seen ever, and the other "something goods" become substantially worse. This is gigantic. And you have yet to address this argument.but just have to deal with you hitting one card while they're still drawing six or so.
See above.Since you're not stopping them from dredging, they're going to "draw" more cards than you.
For reference, this is usually only relevant coming out of the board of a deck that plays Dark Ritual. I neglected to put in a "(if you're playing Eva Green)" at the end of that sentence.I've tried Extirpate and Engineered Plague. Generally doesn't work very well.
I do not take shortcuts on mulligans. In a tournament setting I almost always look at my entire hand and consider whether the individual hand is good enough against my opponent's average hand. This is because I don't care about individual cards, but my 60 cards being able to work together to beat my opponent's 60 cards (obviously some of those 60 cards are better than others, and some work better in conjunction than others).You haven't said whether or not you would mulligan for Extirpate.
I really cannot answer that question well. If you want to post some example hands (given a 60 card postboard deck) and ask if I'd mulligan, I'd be happy (though it will take a while given no internet at home temporarily) to give a Yes/No and some reasoning.
Generally, my hand has to be exceptional to not keep without a hate card against Ichorid.
Irrelevant. If I'm keeping an exceptional hand (without hate), I fully expect to draw into a hate card before they're able to mount an overwhelming position.Therefore, if your first couple turns are just using the good cards you already have, they're going to have full access to those good cards that Extirpate would hit.
And end up getting smashed when you can't deal with them Chaining Leyline or Needling Crypt.I would absolutely mulligan for Crypt/Leyline though.
Leyline yes. It is also easier to answer and requires you to mulligan to it and then get smashed when they answer it.That's because those cards have a much bigger impact than Extirpate.
Tormod's no. It has a bigger impact immediately. Extirpate has a bigger impact over the long run. It doesn't matter if you get rid of 2 Bridges and 2 Ichorids if they just dump 2 more Bridges and 2 more Ichorids in. It does however matter if you get rid of Bridges entirely. Unlike the examples of "Extirpate on Threshold's Swords, wow they can't draw another now" and PR's response of "you don't know if they would have drawn another during that game!" claiming that "you don't know if Ichorid will mill another Bridge or not" is awful. Unfortunately I think this argument will eventually come down to heavy statistical analysis as to when Extirpate is useful, and I have neither the time nor the energy to attempt to come up with a percentage of the time that you Extirpate a card against Ichorid that they would have seen another 1 copy, 2 copies, and 3 copies had you not Extirpated.
What you're missing is the very important part of Magic theory where mulliganning (general speaking) is awful. Again, I'm of the opinion that against Ichorid, there is no trump (that can be played in a timely fashion, Solitary Confinement might count if you somehow couldn't be Therapied), there are no silver bullets. As such, you mulligan because your hand isn't strong enough or keep it because it is. You don't mulligan because "gee I didn't draw my 'trump.'" If you do, that leads to the scenario with Shady and kirdape3, except replace Leyline with Tormod's or Extirpate or Jailer, and replace Chain with Needle, Therapy or Darkblast. You just get smashed when you overvalue your hate cards.What you're missing is the very important part where you won't always have Extirpate because mulliganing for it is awful.
Stinkweed costs 3, and swings for 1....Stinkweed Imp actually kills Tarmogoyf, while all of their creatures (with the exception of Golgari Grave Troll) are pretty cheap.
Are you joking?
If they're hardcasting Stinkweed, they're not in a winning position.
Without Bridges or Ichorids it's significantly harder. And you have yet to address this argument.They can just throw a ton of guys at you which will eventually get through or stabilize the board.
I wouldn't in a million years Extirpate GGT there. Ever.I've always targeted those cards mentioned. Except for one game where my opponent mulliganed to three and went land, Careful study, discard Grave Troll plus something useless. I Extirpated Grave Troll there. I still lost (I didn't get above two mana for the entire game).
So you're saying you would have won if you didn't Extirpate the GGT right (in actuality I know this isn't certain)? You would have been able to Extirpate the Ichorids instead if you hadn't. He can only dredge 1 guy a turn (not too bad). You Extirpate in their draw step hitting whatever target they flip first. At some later point you draw an play more Extirpates. The Stinkweed and Putrid would never be hardcast there as long as there are guys to dredge (no lands for 3 mana, no Putrid in opening hand so it isn't in hand ever).He beat me to death with Putrid Imp, Narcomoeba, Stinkweed Imp, and Ichorids. I Extirpated all but the one Narcomoeba that he hardcast, and all of his Bridges.
Please address the points I want addressed. Disclaimer again: I am likely coming across as rude, I don't meant to be.
Indeed. The comparison to Cremate remains valid. Cremate's marginally useful against every deck, but where is it good? Where does it win games?
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Why do so many people just assume Ichorid rolls over and dies to one resolved Extirpate, this is not the case. If you remove Bridge they can still get Nacromoebas and Ichorids and just animate some crazy big Grave Troll, they can still play Stinkweed Imp and Golgari Thug. If you Extirpate Dread Return they can still use their Therapies to make tons of Zombie tokens and attack you with Ichorids and Moebas. You can also Extirpate their lone Dredger if they have just one in their graveyard but this is no assurance they don't get another one in the grave and still go crazy.
Against Leyline, they just have to pray they have a land, a card to remove Leyline, a Dredger and a discard outlet in their hand (or draw the missing components later on) or they will flatout lose. I mean, it's quite a decision to throw back a stable hand (for example COB, COB, Cephalid Coliseum, Dredger, Dredger, LED, Ichorid) and expect all the components plus Leyline removal.
While this is an interesting remark, it's hardly a reason to justify Extirpate over Leyline.I'm not interested in cards by themselves. I'm interested in 60 cards working together. Swords + Extirpate (where I can play in whichever order and likely maximize them, Extirpating a Narco and Swordsing an Ichorid, or whatever) > Swords + Crypt (where I have to wait to Crypt first, kinda like playing Wrath, then Swords afterwards).
I'd much rather have 2 fetch, 2 Swords, Leyline against Ichorid than 2 fetch, 2 Swords, Extirpate for the reasons mentioned above. I mean STP doesn't lose it's relevance if you decide to run Leyline. So the only thing you did was create a scenario where you would win anyway, Leyline or Extirpate doesn't matter much which one you run. That said, there are scenarios if the rest of your hand is junk, where Leyline would win you the game where Extirpate would not like I explained above.
Hey look! A way to kill a bunch of time!
What exactly is the non-ichorid player doing all the time while the Ichorid Player is "rebuilding?" Sitting there with their pants down? In my experience, the Ichorid player laughs off one Extirpate, and is annoyed by two. The first will make them find avenue #2 to win through, which is either making guys and flashing back Therapies, or swinging with 3/1s, whichever is available. With Crypt in the same scenario, they start over, with no Dredgers in the yard, less than 7 cards in the hand, and get to play either the draw, go game, or they find a discard outlet ASAP. I've had many times where they've been left without a Dredger in hand or in the yard, and have floundered while trying to find one. Meantime, I'm swinging with any guy I can, be it Goyf or Bob, or even fucking Painter, because their deck is a pile without their yard.
I give the edge to Crypt. Every time.
We can measure again, based on likelihood of them drawing relevant hate, but it doesn't matter. Let's call it a wash.Scenario 2. You draw hate, they draw an answer that prevents your hate from doing anything.
In this scenario, in my opinion there's no difference, you get destroyed (hence it was left out of previous reasoning, I'm only interested in games where we can measure the differences).
The funny thing is, I'm not looking to gain tempo in the Ichorid match. Wizards gave me the opportunity, way back in 1994, to play a card that costs no mana, and literally wrecks that deck. WRECKS. I generally have enough cards in my arsenal (see counterspells, blockers, etc.) to stall the game until I can find a way to deal with their Needle. At which point, I remove them from the game. The good thing about Crypt is, even without the possibility of using it, you can still run it out there to prevent them from making you discard it.Scenario 3. You don't draw hate in your opening hand (keep the hand) and then proceed to draw it later, they draw an answer. This is one of the scenarios I focused on because Extirpate has a tremendous advantage here. If they draw Needle, they play it. Nothing Crypt can do about that until you draw Deed/EE/Chain of Vapor/whatever, giving them the tempo your hate card is supposed to buy you.
In this scenario, in my opinion Extirpate has a monstrous advantage over Crypt.
No, I have not been paying attention to Ichorid in Extended. That format has two distinct differences from Legacy which make me not care about the matchup there, AT ALL. 1) Force of Will. 2) Lion's Eye Diamond.Have you been paying attention to Ichorid in Extended? They have the exact same graveyard hate cards for it (Jailer, Extirpate, Crypt, Leyline). Just about every play in Extended is packing 8 SB cards if they want to beat Ichorid. Seeing as how we have Brainstorm, I've cut to 6.
Do you feel confident playing the matchup with only 4 relevant cards in your deck after board? How's that 0% game 1 going? Why would you build a deck with no cards that are relevant at all against Ichorid that aren't in the MD? Let's consider my Painter deck. Ignoring the MD Crypt (it's probably not staying MD anyway), you have at the very least, 4 FOW, 1 EE, 1 Echoing Truth, and a bunch of blockers to remove Bridges. This doesn't even count the Trinket Mages to tutor up EE, nor the LDV to find the hate cards. Post board, I go up to a whopping 2 EE and 2 Crypt. That's it! And yet, I've lost a grand total of 1 sanctioned match to Ichorid with the deck, out of at least 10 matches. That 1 loss was to Zach Tartell, who answered my turn 1 Crypt with Needle off the top, with a turn 1 win in hand. We've already chalked those type of wins up to luck.Do you feel confident enough with a less than 40% chance of seeing your most relevant cards after a game 1 loss?
No argument here.Extirpate/Crypt/Leyline/Jailer are the most relevant cards in this match.
So swords, which does not put a creature into the yard, is good with Extirpate, which needs cards in the yard? Also, swords is in a color which provides you little to no relevant disruption to the Ichorid deck. Why would I go out of my way to use it in this matchup?After those, Swords is very relevant because they force the opponent to dredge another Ichorid (or Narco is you had to off Narco first). Swords in conjunction with Extirpate can be extremely powerful.
That's because you're playing shitty cards that rely on other ones to make them worth playing (see: Extirpate). I want my trump (and Crypt vs. Ichorid is as close to a trump as you get in this game) card to WIN THE GAME.I'm not interested in cards by themselves. I'm interested in 60 cards working together.
EE is one of the most versatile cards against Ichorid if you're playing Crypt. Their out to Crypt is Needle. Needle dies to EE. If you draw no Crypt, but draw EE, you get to play it on 0 and wipe out their army. If you time it correctly, this can prevent them from ever having the men to Dread return.EE/Deed in the worst case scenario where you activate them are a Fog (not very relevant).
That's because it's a misleading statement that's borderline untrue. Even if they DO have one, it's extremely unlikely that they have 7 cards in hand, and will be able to discard one immediately to continue the chain. Even if they do, they're still down whatever progress they've made up to that point.A decent Ichorid player will have at least 1 Dredger in his/her hand after you activate Crypt to get going again. You have yet to address this argument.
Even if you only get one or two draw steps with which to do so?Irrelevant. If I'm keeping an exceptional hand (without hate), I fully expect to draw into a hate card before they're able to mount an overwhelming position.
Meanwhile, you've Extirpated Ichorid, and have gotten straight rolled to hastey 3/3 zombies. See how fun pretendie-time is?And end up getting smashed when you can't deal with them Chaining Leyline or Needling Crypt.
The HEART of the issue. There's no calling you back in, since you've begun from a misconception, and can't arrive at the correct decision from said invalid start.What you're missing is the very important part of Magic theory where mulliganning (general speaking) is awful. Again, I'm of the opinion that against Ichorid, there is no trump (that can be played in a timely fashion, Solitary Confinement might count if you somehow couldn't be Therapied), there are no silver bullets.
Extirpate (n. x-tur-pate): 1. A Magic: The Gathering card used in Legacy control decks to provide a means to stopping graveyard or recursion-based strategies, often based on the power of a single card, that the control player would have incredible difficulty stopping otherwise.
Hahaha, QFT. Also hilarious signature.
I thought I'd add more substance to my fanboiism.
This is from the Ichorid thread about how to beat Crypt:
Also, nobody has discussed a combination of Crypts + Extirpates. 2 Crypts, 2 Extirpates seems quite powerful (although more of each is obviously better).Crypt baiting basically comes down to putting things in there that will kill him if he does nothing and will slowly progress your dredging, while at the same time your hand contains cards that will get you right back in. I usually harrass my opponent something along the lines of: attack with a lonely recurring Ichorid and a Bridge, while dredging a Thug, and playing and flashbacking Therapies while I can. Try to play the game but at a slower pace.
If your opponent plays a gazillion cantrips, or can search out Crypts, or can make it recurring (through Academy Ruins for example) you may want to be more aggressive; dredging faster to force him to use it, but always have some backup left in your hand! Otherwise you're in topdeck and that's a pain in Ichorid.
A Crypt or two with a good clock on your opponents side is usually very difficult to deal with though. But I've won games wherein my opponent succesfully activated three crypts. Remember that Putrid Imp is MVP, so is having two dredgers in your hand (so you get to keep one), hold on to Bridges if they're in your hand, etc.
What I noticed is that a lot of people don't even know when to blow up the crypt, but you shouldn't rely on that.
To disagree with a lot of people, I think Landstill is not such a great MU. They have multiple ways of dealing with your aggression and the slower you play them the more time you give them to set it up.
On the Ichorid recursion, I bring them back whenever it is beneficial for the game state. I won't bring it back if my opponent has a Propaghanda in play and I don't have the mana nor a Bridge in my yard. I'm also hesitant to recur it when it eats away my last dredger (which I usually try to avoid because Dredging hits more food).
Basically, Ichorid is awesome because he deals damage, is food for Therapy and Dread Return and makes tokens.
The situation you mentioned with the Factory, Crucible and Crypt is a difficult one though! It makes Ichorid underwhelming at the least. There're no conditions you have to meet before recurring Ichorids, just don't do it when it doesn't make sense to do it :)
Ichorid usually wins game 1. Then you bring in between 4-8 dedicated hate cards and win game 2. Game 3 is the game that actually matters, because Ichorid knows what your hate is and Cabal Therapy is that much more powerful (and they're on the play and likely not to mulligan a hand with a Turn 1 Therapy).
A combination of Crypts and Extirpates means that your game 3 percentage should go way up (even if you risk being slightly weaker G2).
I think that extirpate is more versatile and a strong sideboard card in multiple matchups, but I don't understand the groups that would refuse to run even 1 copy, if only to throw off Cabal Therapy (the ONLY answer for Extirpate, so obviously if you cast your singleton Extirpate G2, they're gonna therapy for it).
Staying late at work on a Friday night, so I can talk to people on the internet. Awesome!
If you mulliganned to Crypt as Dave is suggesting, yes.What exactly is the non-ichorid player doing all the time while the Ichorid Player is "rebuilding?" Sitting there with their pants down?
Obviously our experiences are different.In my experience, the Ichorid player laughs off one Extirpate, and is annoyed by two.
No graveyard hate card (yet printed) also takes out an active discard outlet (or on that's in hand, unless you're dumb enough to Extirpate Breakthrough or something...). In my experience after you Crypt them they have a decent chance of still having Putrid/LED in play, or Careful Stufy/Breakthrough in hand and a dredger ready to go.With Crypt in the same scenario, they start over, with no Dredgers in the yard, less than 7 cards in the hand, and get to play either the draw, go game, or they find a discard outlet ASAP.
This has happened for me as well, but it's not the norm in my experiences.I've had many times where they've been left without a Dredger in hand or in the yard, and have floundered while trying to find one.
I worded the scenario a little oddly.We can measure again, based on likelihood of them drawing relevant hate, but it doesn't matter. Let's call it a wash.
In this scenario we can break it down further if you like.
With Extirpate: They need Therapy or Unmask (Therapy being agreed upon, Unmask not), potentially 8 ways to get it, and even more likely if they're dredging to get Therapy. However if they're dredging to get Therapy, they're also increasing the chances that Extirpate hits them beforehand.
With Leyline: They need Chain (or Ray of Revelation) and they have to draw it.
With Crypt: They can draw and play Needle or they can draw and endstep a Chain of Vapor (depending on how good of a position they're left with afterwards and depending on whether or not they think you're going to pop in response). They can also just play through it, slow rolling their dredges. I've seen a number of games where the Ichorid player lets the opponent sit on their Tormod's Crypt (trying to maximize it) while the Ichorid player just lets his 2/2 zombie tokens accumulate off his 1 or 2 Ichorids with 1 Bridge in the bin with the dredge cards safe in his hand.
What exactly is it that you think Tormod's Crypt is doing to Ichorid? This is a legitimate question. Yes it's card advantage (which is why you're seeing it as a "This Wrecks Ichorid" card, because its superior at controlling the game and winning through card advantage then your other maindeck cards), but I also would contend that it's stealing tempo from Ichorid.The funny thing is, I'm not looking to gain tempo in the Ichorid match.
If they shift gears (to the above strategy which is similar to how an aggro player will play out 2 threats and then wait for Wrath to hit the board before playing more dudes, except in this case it's before dredging more cards) because they see Tormod's on the board, you're generating tempo which you now have to use to generate blockers, Deeds, EEs, Brainstorm into Crypt#2, etc.
The times I've played against Needle (naming Crypt), I've categorically lost to 2/2s afterwards regardless of whether or not I've been able to deal with Needle. I draw EE? Great, they still have 4 2/2 zombies in play. I draw Deed? I played Crypt on turn 1 (to avoid Therapy/Unmask/the nuts turn 1 kill) so Deed gets rid of my Crypt also...I generally have enough cards in my arsenal (see counterspells, blockers, etc.) to stall the game until I can find a way to deal with their Needle.
It costing zero is good, but I'm not sure how strong this argument is. Let me think about this for a bit.The good thing about Crypt is, even without the possibility of using it, you can still run it out there to prevent them from making you discard it.
I don't think these impact the the Aggro-Control/Control vs. Ichorid anywhere near as much as access to Brainstorm does. LED is another discard outlet (granted it provides mana to go nuts with Colesium and DA), which makes Ichorid extremely more powerful in Legacy, while FoW basically isn't very impressive in the Ichorid match. It's generally only useful in your opening hand, and even then only if they only drew 1 discard outlet. I know it stops Dread Return, but if they're going for the combo, they're ripping your hand apart first with Therapy. As such, without Brainstorm, I think 8 graveyard hate cards (or potentially 4 with Plagues if you're playing Dark Rit) would be correct if you wanted to ensure the win against Ichorid. With Brainstorm I think we can go down to 6, possibly 5. Four, in my opinion, leaves too much to chance.No, I have not been paying attention to Ichorid in Extended. That format has two distinct differences from Legacy which make me not care about the matchup there, AT ALL. 1) Force of Will. 2) Lion's Eye Diamond.
Uh. No? Which is why that entire section is an argument for more than 4 graveyard hate cards post board. I'm not really sure what point you're attempting to make here, I never claimed a 0% game 1 (I was attempting to get across that by the numbers you're less likely to win game 1 against Ichorid than you are to lose).Do you feel confident playing the matchup with only 4 relevant cards in your deck after board? How's that 0% game 1 going?
Again, Swords, Goyf, Deed, EE, Fanatic, Lightning Bolt, and other staples are all relevant cards against Ichorid with varying degrees of relevance.
Some of my arguments have been directed towards ITF and Dave in particular. The gigantic difference there is that that deck doesn't have blockers (barring mising the Witness) to trade with Ichorid (Goyf will always be too big) to take out Bridges.Post board, I go up to a whopping 2 EE and 2 Crypt. That's it!
In any event, blockers are tempo as well, fitting into my original argument of trying to take enough tempo away from Ichorid to allow you to actually play a game of Magic against them.
Sounds lucky to me. Again, I'm afraid the only way to "resolve" an argument like this would be with an extreme amount of stastical analysis that I'm fairly sure no one want to do.And yet, I've lost a grand total of 1 sanctioned match to Ichorid with the deck, out of at least 10 matches. That 1 loss was to Zach Tartell, who answered my turn 1 Crypt with Needle off the top, with a turn 1 win in hand. We've already chalked those type of wins up to luck.
Comparatively speaking (to Tormod's), yes.So swords, which does not put a creature into the yard, is good with Extirpate, which needs cards in the yard?
I have Crypt + Swords. I have to wait until after I Crypt to maximize Swords.
I have Extirpate + Swords. They dredge Narco, I swords in their drawstep (keeping Extirpate safe for another turn from Therapy), then they dredge Ichorid, I extirpate it. Or Swords Ichorid, then Extirpate Narco. Or Extirpate Narco, then Swords Ichorid. Or Extirpate Ichorid, then Swords Narco. All 4 of these are optimize your card usage (note there's a difference between optimizing card usage and optimal situations, here Extirpating Ichorid and Swordsing Narco is the optimal situation). Compared to Swords + Tormod's there's only one 1 to optimize your card usage, which is to Crypt them and follow up with Swords.
Obviously you don't want to be forced to Swords an Ichorid and then Extirpate Ichorids. Just like you don't want to be forced to Swords and Ichorid and then Crypt them afterwards. Swords and Extirpate drawn individually present you some scenarios to optimize your card usage that Swords and Crypt don't.
If you're strictly talking about Painter, then there's no reason to change the colors you're playing. If you're already playing a deck with White in it, and 4 maindeck StPs, why would you ever take them out against Ichorid?Also, swords is in a color which provides you little to no relevant disruption to the Ichorid deck. Why would I go out of my way to use it in this matchup?
I think you're out of your mind if you think Swords is a shitty card (yes, this means even in the Ichorid match). It does it's job, which is to RFG an Ichorid in upkeep, or RFG a Narco in draw step, prevent Therapy from being flashed back, and keep 2~3 Zombie tokens off the board.That's because you're playing shitty cards that rely on other ones to make them worth playing (see: Extirpate).
I obviously can't argue with what you want. I'll stand by my statement that I think there are no trump cards against Ichorid, and that if that's the case focusing on trump is very likely to be wrong.I want my trump (and Crypt vs. Ichorid is as close to a trump as you get in this game) card to WIN THE GAME.
For 1 turn. Then Ichorids come back and make more dudes on their endstep.If you draw no Crypt, but draw EE, you get to play it on 0 and wipe out their army.
That argument carried over from a previous argument. In my experience decent Ichorid players have both the Dredge card and the discard outlet ready to go against Tormod's if they're expecting Crypt (or expect Needle to be answered).That's because it's a misleading statement that's borderline untrue. Even if they DO have one, it's extremely unlikely that they have 7 cards in hand
Tormod's Crypt also somehow gives you 10 life? Why didn't anyone tell me?!Even if they do, they're still down whatever progress they've made up to that point.
See Brainstorm.Even if you only get one or two draw steps with which to do so?
4 Narcos, 1 Putrid Imp (at most), and 4 Bridges yields 20 Zombie tokens. If they manage to mill 3 Bridges they have to have 3 guys for 8 Zombies (-1 because they have to Therapy naming Force of Will first). Clearly not impossible, but it seems to me to be harder than just "Play my deck like I would normally" after Needle on Crypt/Chain on Leyline.Meanwhile, you've Extirpated Ichorid, and have gotten straight rolled to hastey 3/3 zombies. See how fun pretendie-time is?
Silver Bullets/trump are termed as such because they straight up make the game unlosable via your opponent's strategy. They don't get answered. They don't get played around. They don't get rebuilt from.The HEART of the issue. There's no calling you back in, since you've begun from a misconception, and can't arrive at the correct decision from said invalid start.
Double Engineered Plague straight up trumps a mono-red Goblins deck with no way to boost toughness (Goblin King) and no guys with toughness over 2.
Moat straight up trumps a deck without flyers (or ways to give creatures flying), without enchantment removal, and without Counterspells.
Tormod's crypt does not, and never will, straight up trump Ichorid.
I like the debate between mulliganning for Leyline and not mulliganning for Extirpate. Both sides seem to think that this makes their card superior.
One side is arguing that doesn't NEED to be in your starting hand to be effective. Basically if you look at your top 7 and it's a strong anti-Ichorid hand (like Force + two Swords), you can keep the hand and still have the ability to draw into your hate.
If a player playing Leyline of the Void kept that hand, he'd be in a lot more trouble. At the very least 0 chance to draw his hate and 4 dead cards remaining in the deck.
The other side argues that because you are forced to mulligan onto Leyline of the Void, you improve your starting hand quality overall because you were better off mulliganning for the hate in the first place.
I think that this argument is ridiculous and probably based on an inability to understand the mulligan. If the Extirpate player is better off going to 6 cards to try to dig out an Extirpate, then he'll go to 6 cards.
Nobody here on the Source really gives a fuck about probabilities because of whatever reason, but here are some probabilities, because probabilities are good:
Assuming 4x Leyline in a 60 card deck, the probability of getting a Leyline of the Void in the opener:
7 card hand: 39.95%
6 card hand: 35.15%
5 card hand: 30.06%
4 card hand: 24.68%
3 card hand: 18.99%
2 card hand: 12.99%
1 card hand: 6.67%
Probability of never getting a Leyline after going all the way to 1 card: 13.50%
If you mulligan ANY hand without Leyline and keep ANY hand with Leyline:
Probabilities of starting the game with each of the following hand sizes:
7 card hand: 39.95%
6 card hand: 21.10%
5 card hand: 11.71%
4 card hand: 6.72%
3 card hand: 3.90%
2 card hand: 2.16%
1 card hand (with Leyline): 0.0964%
1 card hand (without Leyline): 13.50%
Average hand size ("aggressively mulliganning for Leyline of the Void"):
5.09 cards. 5.09 cards! That COUNTS Leyline of the Void as one of your 5 cards (so it's really a four card hand + a hoser). I don't know what deck you're playing, but I can't think of a deck that would be happy sitting on a four card hand + a bomb.
This is usually after losing G1, btw. You not only have to beat Ichorid once with a 4.09 card hand, but you have to do it again when Ichorid is on the play usually.
I dunno how much this adds to the debate, but aggressively mulliganning for Leyline of the Void is not a strategy that pays off in the long run. With 6 ways to counter it (usually Chain x4 + Ray x2 hardcast, although they need two land), the deck should have a plan B if Leyline doesn't show up in the top 7 and certainly when Leyline doesn't show up in the top 6.
Like what?
I think I know a thing or two about playing control decks. Against what card or strategy do I want Extirpate where it's not strictly worse than Tormod's Crypt? I'll even leave Haunting Echoes aside for now.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Life from the Loam.
Crypt against Life from the Loam + Cycling Land only slows them down a little, Extirpate against Life + anything assures that they won't be out-card-advantaging you any more. (At least until they find a Burning Wish which you then can counter. If you don't play counters, Extirpate will still stall more than a Crypt.)
For sure Haunting Echoes is pretty damn impressive against Life from the Loam based strategies, but you have to keep in mind that it's pretty horrible against Ichorid as you'll be dead by the time you can cast it. Tormod's Crypt, on the other hand, while pretty impressive against Ichorid doesn't do much against Loam.
Even if we assume that Extirpate is inferior to Tormod's Crypt against Ichorid (which it might be) and worse than Haunting Echoes against Life from the Loam (which it might be), Extirpate is still the jack of all trades, the more flexible choice, and therefore the correct choice - it is just more useful in more matchups than either Crypt or Echoes. With the format being so diverse, I'll rather go with the more flexible card than with the narrower but more powerful card against a particular strategy because I can never make sure that I'll actually face the matchup I prepared for rather than another one where the more powerful choice will be a dead sideboard slot.
Long story short: versatility > power in Legacy.
Team SPOD - ...land of the brave...
Which is why people play Funeral Charm over Thoughtseize or Swords to Plowshares.
Oh, wait. Nobody does that.
Versatility rarely trumps power in actuality, hence why cards with cycling 2 or the word "charm" in them rarely make a big splash.
Also, I question how often Extirpate is really better than Crypt against Loam from a control viewpoint, given that
a) They run B. Wish, and
b) Crypt goes a long way to nullifying their creatures.
People talk about how bad Crypt is against Loam, but I've never noticed it. They still have to start rebuilding their graveyard from scratch.
Also, a single card would be the worst reason ever to run Extirpate in Legacy. Next you'll be justifying Lava Dart because it's so damn good at killing Lackies.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Krosan Grip is a competely dead card against Goyf Sligh, Ichorid, Sui-Black, Doran Rock and virtually all of the Storm combo decks that are going to go off just as it's becoming playable or just before that on the draw. It's a tremendously weak card against Aggro-Loam, Goblins, Elves and generally speaking aggro-rush decks. It's no guarantee against EE or Deed, because a smart player is going to deploy those and use them without passing priority.
To steal your paragraph from above: Extirpate can be a bad peek (except that you actually get to remove 1 to 4 problematic cards from the opponent's gameplan), but sometimes it's Thoughtseize without the life loss and sometimes it's decent to amazing card advantage. It can remove problematic lands from the opponent's hand and gameplan.
I understand the wide swing of opinion that we've all had on Extirpate. It's really not a good maindeck card, even in a deck playing a fair amount of discard. However the same can be said for any number of cards that currently hold tenuous main deck slots in Legacy, and Krosan Grip is the primary example of that class of cards in my opinion.
Any card that you can hold in your opening hand that is potentially useless against a third of the meta is probably a bad maindeck inclusion.
I'm going to add a caveat to the point above: if you are playing a highly defensive gameplan like Landstill, with a fair amount of card advantage in it, then obviously you get a bit more leeway in what you can potentially have in your opening hand without giving up too much advantage in the match.
When the difference in power isn't as evident as in your examples, you should consider the more versatile option.
Also, just as an aside, if you read Legacy-France.com you'll find some of the French Legacy players are actually advocating Piracy Charm... (link)
A) This is obviously an issue but compare them having to find one of their 3-4 Burning Wishes (depending whether they had to use their first Wish to get Loam) to them having to Dredge for 2-3 turns to get their yard full again in terms of tempo gained from resolving Extirpate/Crypt.
Also, depending on which deck you play, this is much less of an issue as you have access to permission and/or are going to be hitting Wasteland, which they have no possibility to recover, with Extirpate anyway.
B) Tormod's Crypt against Aggro Loams' creatures: it's not more than a tiny speed bump - it doesn't do anything against Countryside Crusher and is likely to pump their Goyfs. I'll give you that it will shrink their 2-3of Terravores by approximately 60% though.
So if I get this point correctly, I could reformulate it to read: 'If Lava Dart is only good at killing Lackies, it's not worth it' which would be moot in the first place as it could be applied to Tormod's Crypt just as well (if it's only good against Ichorid, why bother with it in the first place?).
As stated above, Extirpate is rather versatile - you can board it against anything relying on a single threat to win (e.g.: Tarmogoyf for NQG, ITF, Survival, Stifle for Dreadstill etc.). For sure you have to deal with one copy of the card first but if your control deck struggles at doing that, it probably is pretty bad at its job in the first place. After resolving the Extirpate however you're in a much better position to win the game as the opponent will have to play a sub-optimal version against a mere card disadvantage of 1.
Team SPOD - ...land of the brave...
Except the difference in power levels is evident. Crypt nukes graveyard based decks. Loam decks, unless they already have a threat on the table (in which case Extirpate doesn't do anything and Crypt likely does), are going to be at the very least Time Stretched by Crypt. For zero mana. What the fuck are you playing in your deck? This is the problem with these arguments, you act like you have no relevant threats or cards at all besides said graveyard hate. I know I usually do pretty good in matchups where my opponent loses two or three turns of growth at once.
You say that Extirpate is versatile, but you haven't named a card besides Life from the Loam where I really want it. If it's a control card, what else should I be controlling with it? This is a serious question. Loam decks aren't dominant. I can't think of any other situation where Extirpate is desirable.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Here are my extripate targets when I'm playing Funkbrew:
Any Loam deck- Loam then Devastating Dreams
Threshold- Goyf, Counterbalance, then a vindicated dual
Fetchland Tendrils- The LED after they tried to IGG loop, or Ritual Effects
Landstill- Humility or board control cards
Ichorid- Bridge or Ichorid
That's about all I would board in against.
This is my Signature
Crypt nukes 'all-in' decks that rely on their graveyard (read: Ichorid), that's true. Extirpate is weaker here, I never said anything opposing that, I'm rather arguing that the loss of strength in the Ichorid matchup is made up by the gain in strength in other matchups.
Situation A: the Loam player has no threats on the table.
Tormod's Crypt: stall for 2-3 turns until they have their engine going again
Extirpate: fully get rid of their engine i.e. make them fight on equal terms
Extirpate is the better card here.
Situation B: the Loam player has a threat on the table.
Tormod's Crypt: shrink the threat if it's called Terravore, otherwise: see above.
Extirpate: see above.
Tormod's Crypt is very slightly better here, I don't call that nuking and Timestretching though.
Which control deck has relevant threats in the early game? Especially threats that can abuse two to three turns so well that you have won after that time? I just don't see this, especially not if you consider that activating Tormod's Crypt does not equal casting double Timewalk: it just costs them two mana a turn while getting them ahead in landdrops and in board position if they have any excess mana.
Especially when playing control decks, I'd rather get rid of something for good rather than having to deal with it again some time later.
Also, from a concept point of view, the card that is better when you have no threats on the table is also the better card when you do have threats on the table - nothing to argue there.
I've said it before, I'll say it again: you can use Extirpate against any one of those decks that has made itself close to totally dependant on Tarmogoyf (NQG, ITF, maybe Survival - you get the picture) or any other single threat (Dreadstill, Landstill etc.).
It's also decent in the combo matchups when coupled with permission.
Aggro Loam's rise in popularity (in Europe) would like to have a word with you.
That's probably why you despise Extirpate: you're not playing against Aggro Loam often enough. In Germany, on the other hand, Aggro Loam is always a significant part of the metagame so that I'd rather want to be prepared for it.
Team SPOD - ...land of the brave...
To answer what I'd get while Loam tries to recover from Crypt; either a combo kill or a Haunting Echoes, respectively.
I suppose if you ping with a Mishra's Factory for ten turns as your win...
The problem with nuking Tarmogoyf, or Counterbalance, or basically anything that's not a graveyard-based strategy is that Extirpate does nothing to help you in that scenario until you've already dealt with the threat the first time (not via StP, hopefully). So you need to wait until you deal with an important card, and then spend another card making sure that they don't draw another copy of it.
That's terrible. Extract never saw any play, and Extirpate is a very minor step up the power curve.If you run Witnesses and Volrath's Stronghold, you could recur it three or four times until it's good. Or you could just play Haunting Echoes and have an actual win condition that's worth expending a card on. You could argue that Echoes costs more, but Extirpate isn't reliably faster since you have to wait until a relevant card gets ditched. It's certainly less potent.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
One thing that I don't think has been mentioned is this: what are you siding out to bring Extirpate in against non-graveyard tools? You're making it sound as if bringing Extirpate in causes you to cut more effective spells from the maindeck; but that shouldn't happen.
We all know that it's better to take out an opponent's creature rather than remove his chances of drawing more copies of it. We all know that it's better to have two Duresses in your deck than a Duress and an Extirpate, because you can't be guaranteed that you'll see the Duress before the Extirpate (Mystical Tutor shenanigans aside).
Thing is, it isn't always possible. I'd love to bring in tons of sweepers against creature decks, tons of Krosan Grips against lock pieces, tons of countermagic against Storm combo's Chants.
But the sideboard only has 15 slots. And this is where Extirpate shows a small extra side of itself - in addition to being a slightly worse Crypt against Ichorid, a worse Echoes against long-term recursion, a worse Earwig Squad against combo, and the best against Loam, I mean.
Against any deck whose threats can end up in the graveyard, Extirpate has a chance to cut down drastically on the number and quality of threats your opponent will draw in the rest of the game. It's worse than the flat "-1 to threats drawn" that a simple one-for-one answer provides (how much worse depends on the variance of your opponent's threats: the more concentrated they are - hello ITF! - the greater Extirpate's potential effect); but it's certainly better than either a dead maindeck card or a useless Crypt or Leyline.
[You probably want to ask: when will a deck have more dead MD cards than cards it wants to SB in, so that bringing in Extirpate becomes a +EV move? The most common scenario happens when running against a creatureless or near-creatureless deck: not only do you take out anything dealing with the combat zone, but in all likelihood also some cards that lose their purpose against your opponent's particular path to victory (expensive flying finisher against Storm combo; Counterbalance against a wider mana curve; Stifle against a deck with no meaningful targets; and so on). Usually, the more reactive your deck is, the more likely it is to have dead baggage against strategies that come out of left field - and in no format is the left field as large as it is in Legacy.]
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
It's funny how people speak about the card disadvantage that Extirpate supposedly brings.
Yet, I still see people place Force of Will. Perhaps card advantage isn't the only fact to consider when rating a card?
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