[Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

[holkenborg]

These are my opinions on this list.

1) Teferi sucks. The card does way too little to justify play. It can't function as a proper kill, and, even with Sower and Kira, the effect is ignorable.

2) 4 Force Spike is waaay to much. Drawing multiples is very bad. Heck, even drawing a single one is bad in the late game. It's easily the worst topdeck ever.

3) Spell Snare is much better than Force Spike. I'd play 3-2, if I were to play them at all.

4) Echoing Truth mainboard is crap. The card will give carddisadvantage most of the times for not being able to permanently remove a threat from the board. It's especially bad against Thresh.

5) Back to Basics is sick. I really don't understand why you won't play 4. It basically is a must-counter/must-dealwith for 90% of the format. The card isn't even bad in multiples at all, because your opponent will have to deal with it anyway.

I was the one who played the deck and shall respond to your statements:

1. I agree partially. He does not suck (well.. he doesn't finish game like Morphling), but I did not have a second Morphling. If I would have had two Morphlings, I would replace the Teferi.

2. Force Spike I love. Spell Snare is the card of which I am not certain, because it is situational. Back to Basics also is, but he wins games. Propaganda also is (I think) and that is why I moved that cards to the sideboard after the tournament experience. Sure it won me games, but I rather have it sideboard. If you are on the draw, the force spike serves as a T1 spell snare. I used it a lot to counter T1 a spell with CMC 2. Later in the game you pitch it to FoW.

3. I think this has to do with personal styles of playing the game, because the card is situational. Some like it, some don't.

4. Without Echoing Truth you HAVE to counter some cards, because you cannot get rid of them in any other way. Echoing Truth bounces anything you want. Also, I saved my own Kira and Sowers with it! Also you can use Echoing Truth as a Time Walk bouncing the only attacker (often Goyf).

5. Because of two reasons: (1) it is not game against every deck and (2) you don't want to draw two. I think the choice for 4 mainbord is again a personal/meta dependend thing.

After the tournament I changed the mainbord: -3 Propaganda (to sideboard), +1 Vedalken Shackles (1st game I like 3), +1 Spell Snare and +1 Powder Keg.

[DeathwingZERO]

My biggest problem with the fetchlands and Brainstorm play isn't the loss of life, but that is part of it. There's a few reasons I don't play fetches in addition:

-Having 6 to 8 means that's 6 to 8 less "true" Islands in the deck. This can hurt at times where land destruction like Armageddon can cause crippling issues mid to late game, due to a lack of them remaining in the library.

-They can be Needled. Not very common, but a nuisance nonetheless. This deck is so absolutely mana hungry that any mana denial strategy hurts, especially ones that can drop at any time due to insanely cheap mana costs (especially turn 1).

-Blood Moon. The main reason for this: Keg can't get rid of it. That SUCKS. Once it's in play, you have no removal for it. Again, it's going to severely cripple the number of blue sources you have, which could cause problems in both Shackles and spells, or pinch Morphling activations.

While I love Brainstorm, I absolutely MUST have consistency in every deck I play. If I sacrifice my ability to land permanent and always useful mana sources to get more stability and manipulation of the topdeck, it's a hefty cost. I know my deck is a majority of answers and threats, but I don't know if my opponent will abuse my manabase to the point of them being the control player.

[Bahamuth]

Force Spike I love. Spell Snare is the card of which I am not certain, because it is situational.

How is Force Spike not situational if it's only useful in the early game?

I think this has to do with personal styles of playing the game, because the card is situational. Some like it, some don't.

Personal style? As in not being able to counter something with Spike, while you could with Spell Snare?

Also, I saved my own Kira and Sowers with it!

You're kidding right? If your opponent actually wastes 2 cards to kill Kira, you've won already.

Also you can use Echoing Truth as a Time Walk bouncing the only attacker (often Goyf).

Why not run Repeal then? It's better at doing this, and even that card is too crappy

Later in the game you pitch it to FoW.

That's not an argument. I can say the same for B2B.

[4eak]

@ DeathwingZERO

Having 6 to 8 means that's 6 to 8 less "true" Islands in the deck. This can hurt at times where land destruction like Armageddon can cause crippling issues mid to late game, due to a lack of them remaining in the library.

This is generally a good thing as time goes on. I want to be drawing fewer and fewer "true" Islands against the vast majority of decks. As to your example, I can't recall the last time an Armageddon actually resolved against me while I was playing MUC.

-They can be Needled. Not very common, but a nuisance nonetheless. This deck is so absolutely mana hungry that any mana denial strategy hurts, especially ones that can drop at any time due to insanely cheap mana costs (especially turn 1).

Run a 3/3 split on Fetches against Needle. Secondly, I LOVE to see Needle on fetches instead of board control and shackles. Mana denial isn't something that really works against MUC very well (no matter how you cut it) because the deck itself works to deny mana by asymmetrically abusing B2B with a huge number of hard to deny basics.

-Blood Moon. The main reason for this: Keg can't get rid of it. That SUCKS. Once it's in play, you have no removal for it. Again, it's going to severely cripple the number of blue sources you have, which could cause problems in both Shackles and spells, or pinch Morphling activations

Are you serious? 6 fetches is somehow going to destroy MUC's mana base against Blood Moon? Even if you let the card resolve (I probably would think about letting it happen because it is counterbait at best), MUC has plenty of other basic islands to play through it. Seriously, this is very rarely a problem. Blood Moon actually might even help, as your fetches now actually tap for mana, which isn't a terrible thing against decks that run Blood moon.

While I love Brainstorm, I absolutely MUST have consistency in every deck I play.

I'm sorry, I really find this phrase to be funny by itself. Brainstorm does more for consistency than other card every printed in the history of magic. It has a proven track record (95% of the decks that run blue use Brainstorm because it is really that good at making their decks consistent).

Personally, I think Stifle is the strongest card against fetches, but even that would never stop me from running them. MUC players that use fetches properly will not find land disruption to even be a real obstacle.

For the record, I still prefer Brainstorm to Ponder (and every other CQ/CA card you can name) even without fetches. Impulse is the next best card for the function.


@ Bahamuth

How is Force Spike not situational if it's only useful in the early game?

Force spike is useful in more than just the early game. You'll still get plenty of counter usage out of it in mid and late game, especially with B2B. With Brainstorm and Force of Will, this card is very viable. After tons of testing, I agree that Force Spike > Spell Snare. MUC needs a better early game, and Force spike does this better than Spell Snare.

Personal style? As in not being able to counter something with Spike, while you could with Spell Snare?

Let me jump in; instant heavy builds that play draw/go with fewer permanents will make more use out of Force Spike. If you run a bare minimum permission suite, then yeah, Spell Snare is going to look better to you. I would hope he doesn't mean personal style, but rather, the deck makeup or build would call for a different spell. Different builds and strategies will definitely call for different cards.

Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

This card doesn't have a place in MUC. Even some mono blue based tempo deck has better options. Make your win conditions count. Good players do not lose to this card. If you win with this in your deck, it wasn't because 'this was in your deck', but because your opponent needs more practice with 'the magical cards'.

Sower of Temptation

If you really want to use this slot for this function, why not Control Magic? Make them play their creature removal on their own creatures for goodness sakes. Kira is not the answer. I still prefer Shackles.

Why not run Repeal then? It's better at doing this, and even that card is too crappy

Repeal always costs +1 more than your opponent payed. The cantrip is nice (and worth the cost), but the total cost of the spell isn't worth it, nor does Repeal fit the need of the deck.

Bounce is a time walk in this deck, and the mana cost of it matters. Additionally, Echo smashes tokens.

While bounce might look bad on paper, it works wonders for bridging the gap from the early game to board control. And, often times it answers the unanswerable. Test Echo more; I think you'll like it.

B2B

This deck can still win without it. I can definitely see metagames where I prefer this in the sideboard. Most people should be maindecking 3 or 4 though.





peace,
4eak

[holkenborg]

Allright allright.. lets just wait some time for the deck to end up high on tournaments again.

I don't want to make an enormous post, so some short remarks.

My opponent tried to kill Kira as soon as possible because they know Sower of Temptation is following plus that it did two damage every turn.

If you say Force Spike s*cks lategame, I'm gonna use your own argument: if you reach lategame, you've already won.

At least there is some discussion, which is good :D

[Mantis]

Back to Basics is the only reason you would ever play MUC, aside from this being your pet deck or you can't afford a 3 color manabase. Think about it, what does this deck that other decks like ITF or Landstill don't? Right, it punishes decks that overcommit on colors. Thus you play this deck in metagames you know people are seriously overcommiting on colors. I mean, Landstill and ITF play better removal and better win conditions and maybe even a better draw engine. The things you've got going are the most solid manabase in the format (and I can definately see why people don't want fetches in there), and B2B.

Don't bring this deck to an unknown metagame as for all you know everyone is playing Goblins and Eva Green and you got yourself a place in the losing bracket.
You run this deck in metagames where there is lots of 3 and 4 color decks and the rest of the decks are aiming for those manabases like Dragon Stompy. You can handle both, whereas with Landstill or ITF you would have a really though time sticking out of the pack in this type of metagame.

[Doks]

Don't bring this deck to an unknown metagame as for all you know everyone is playing Goblins and Eva Green and you got yourself a place in the losing bracket.

I just experienced the other way 'round. For me, it has proven to be an all around fortress in an unknown metagame.
What are the most played decks?

Probably Landstill, Thresh and everything aggro-controlish running CB / Top, Loam Decks and some aggressive Stompy / Zoo variants, maybe even Goblins, but I've not heard of them for a long time (here in Germany).

MUC is not beaten by the most common stratgies.
CounterTop does not really disturb you.
Landstill and control in general should be good MUs for MUC cuz of B2B.
MUC is not attacked by Manadenial in most cases (Recurring Wastelands, Stifles, Moon effects etc.).

Sure, it's probably not a D2B, but a very resistant archetype.

@ Spell Snare vs. Force Spike:

I always run Snare as a 4of. It's just too important. Other controldecks run spot removal to get rid of that 2nd turn Goyf / Confidant / Meddling Mage or even Lord of Atlantis ;). MUC has Spell Snare.
In addition, it counters all the critical cards, that might make the early game even worse when they'd resolve and cost you the game: Sinkhole / Survival of the fittest / Burning wish and other tutors and even Standstills.
Force Spike can do this, too, but:
Spell Snare keeps its strength during the whole game.

For opponent's important T1-Drops you have FoW and EE / Keg.

[Captain_Morgan]

Concerning Shackles vs. Treachery, is there much difference concerning those two cards with their drawbacks? Or is it by general speed that Shackles is faster than Treachery that lends itself to the evolution?

[DeathwingZERO]

I prefer Shackles over everything else for the sole reason that it allows you to steal a different creature if you should choose to untap it. That in itself is an awesome pro for the card.

[4eak]

@ Doks

I just experienced the other way 'round. For me, it has proven to be an all around fortress in an unknown metagame.

Amen.

And, the more I know my opponent and his deck, the better MUC becomes.

I always run Snare as a 4of. It's just too important. Other controldecks run spot removal to get rid of that 2nd turn Goyf / Confidant / Meddling Mage or even Lord of Atlantis ;). MUC has Spell Snare.

If your meta is fairly set in stone, I could see why you would run Spell Snare. SS is not a building block to the 'fortress in an unknown metagame' in my experience. Force spike does better in this circumstance.

Both SS and FS are two permission spells that belong in different flavors of MUC. I'm unwilling to say either is obsolete, but if I had to choose a general or unknown metagame, I'd pick FS over SS.


@ Captain_Morgan

Concerning Shackles vs. Treachery, is there much difference concerning those two cards with their drawbacks?

Treachery hits anything, but it only targets and resolves once. It costs colored mana, it is an enchantment (harder to remove usually), and is outside of counterbalance curves. It can't be played until turn 5.

Shackles is colorless, switches targets, is reusable, easier to cast and use (over several turns), and the ability is an instant. The drawback of not having enough Islands is actually a rare one when MUC is built and played correctly.

Shackles controls the board; treachery does not. Shackles starts trading immediately and continues to win attrition wars; treachery does not. Shackles is much stronger CA.

I consider Shackles to be the strongest card in the deck (better than FoF, FoW, Brainstorm, and B2B) and the real reason MUC is a viable option. I look at the rest of the deck as building up the point (permission/board clearing/bounce) where Shackles hits play and you stabilize in creature-heavy environments.



peace,
4eak

[Captain Hammer]

Poron, here is what I would suggest trying out. It's very similar to your list actually.

// Mana
22 Island
4 Chrome Mox

// Creatures
1 Rainbow Efreet
2 Morphling

// Permanents
4 Propaganda
4 Back to Basics
4 Powder Keg
3 Vedalken Shackles

// Instants
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Ancestral Vision


I actually think everyone should try out the above build. Chrome Mox is solid. You usually do have extra business spells that you don't need. And the fact that Chrome Mox speeds up your whole deck by a full turn is insane and shouldn't be underestimated.

A turn one Powder Keg, turn two Shackles/Back to Basics/Propaganda or turn three Fact or Fiction can really save your ass sometimes.

[Benie Bederios]

Poron, here is what I would suggest trying out. It's very similar to your list actually.

// Mana
22 Island
4 Chrome Mox

// Creatures
1 Rainbow Efreet
2 Morphling

// Permanents
4 Propaganda
4 Back to Basics
4 Powder Keg
3 Vedalken Shackles

// Instants
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Ancestral Vision


I actually think everyone should try out the above build. Chrome Mox is solid. You usually do have extra business spells that you don't need. And the fact that Chrome Mox speeds up your whole deck by a full turn is insane and shouldn't be underestimated.

A turn one Powder Keg, turn two Shackles/Back to Basics/Propaganda or turn three Fact or Fiction can really save your ass sometimes.

If you play Chrome Mox, wouldn't it be stupid not to play Chalice of the Void, because you have the option of playing it turn 1?

Chrome Mox is an additional dead card( against 24/25 lands) late in the game and it's carddisadvantage is quite bad in the early game.

BB

[someone_unimportant]

The most important plus Force Spike has over Spell Snare is that it counters Goblin Lackey on the play. And sometimes Nimble Mongoose. The second most important plus is that people play around it. That doesn't sound like a plus, but once they know you pack it, you have an asymmetric Resistor. I have had people wait a turn to play Dark Confidant/Tarmogoyf/etc so many times even when I don't have the Spike. If it's Spell Snare, they play it no matter what no matter when. I know this is a weird argument, but the times you don't have Force Spike are better than the times you don't have Spell Snare. But mostly it's the countering Goblin Lackey. Also, I strongly suggest 4 Brainstorms in a MUC deck. Especially for those who are underwhelmed with Ancestral Visions (which I personally dislike as well), Brainstorm is so much better than Ponder, it's not even funny. (I think it's better than AV too, but I've given up trying to convince people of this) Being able to change THREE cards in your hand is roughly 1255326636980x better than seeing the top 3 and only being able to draw one. Obviously, this means you want to run fetches, but fetches do not harm the manabase at all. Why do you care about Blood Moon? That card is all kinds of trash against a mostly-monocolored deck. You should not be worried about Stifle for the following slightly oversimplified reasons:

1) You can crack fetches anytime, so opponent must keep U open at all times, and free SoR = yay. Also, if playing Force Spike, you can make amusing things happen when people play 2 drops on turn 3. Like fetch and if they stifle hit their good threat if you choose.

2) There are far better things to Stifle than fetches (Engineered Explosives/Keg)

3) You usually have more lands anyway. Any tempo gained is counteracted by the fact that they've retarded their board development to keep open to Stifle.

[4eak]

@ someone_unimportant

Can I have your man-babies?

Seriously, it is refreshing to see someone who just plain gets it.

I'd add a few more cards to the "lackey" list, but your argument clearly demonstrates the issue. Relying upon EE/Keg to sweep it is not the answer.

The resistor argument is better than I think many will believe. It is solid tempo in the exact place that MUC needs tempo. It is the biggest kick in the nuts in magic when you eat a Force spike, and it is a solid bluff for a good deal of the game. I just need to live to turn 5. Past turn 5, I'm going to trash my opponent, period.


@ Benie Bederios

Chrome Mox is an additional dead card( against 24/25 lands) late in the game and it's carddisadvantage is quite bad in the early game.

Agreed. It isn't worth the card disadvantage. The only arguments would be that you could drop board control faster, but frankly, I'd rather play counters at 1 for 1 parity and keep my card advantage.


peace,
4eak

[DeathwingZERO]

The problem with Brainstorm is it NEEDS fetchlands to be effective to it's maximum. Ponder needs nothing, just U on your turn (which is far from crucial in most aspects of the match). The fact that Ponder only gets you one cards off the top doesn't matter, it's that Brainstorm throws away 2 pieces of trash that you HAVE to draw again if you don't see a fetch.

Personally, I just don't see the reason to put yourself into positions that could hurt your mana (even if it's not always an issue) just to run Brainstorm over Ponder. Late game neither of them matter, as FoF is the MVP.

EDIT: Another card I was considering in the 1cc draw slot was actually a trip back down memory lane: Whispers of the Muse. Yes, it's only a cantrip early on, and that tends to suck. But with the deck being such a board controlling stall engine, the late game spending the extra mana is really no different than it was roughly 10-12 years ago. It'd take a lot more testing to consider it over being able to see what's coming up, but I really like it's staying power.

[Maagler]

This must have already been discussed, but has anyone tried counterbalance top in this deck? or is everything to high in cmc for it to be viable. I there was already discussions on it could anyone direct me to the pages?

[4eak]

@ DeathwingZERO

The problem with Brainstorm is it NEEDS fetchlands to be effective to it's maximum

At its maximum effectiveness:

Brainstorm > Ancestral Recall

I'm sure you aren't going to require that cards are as good as Ancestral recall before we start playing them in Legacy MUC. I'm perfectly willing to play Brainstorm even when it isn't at maximum effectiveness because even mediocre Brainstorms are worlds better than the other options.

Brainstorm, even without a fetch, is powerful. The instant speed matters, and the way in which it affects your active hand is tremendous. Fetches just make it better, but Brainstorm is quite viable even with a fetch to turn it into awesome-sauce. Brainstorm is just as important as FoF. The card is hands down better than Ponder or jankVision. With that said, I do try to save Brainstorm for fetches, but it isn't necessary (it is just a strong tactic).


@ Maagler

This must have already been discussed, but has anyone tried counterbalance top in this deck? or is everything to high in cmc for it to be viable. I there was already discussions on it could anyone direct me to the pages?

hehe, yeah (I can't tell if you are joking or not, because that question gets asked a whole lot). Just in case you aren't joking...You could search for it, but let me save you the trouble (although, I suggest reading the thread first if you are going to continue posting in it):

Counterbalance will never be played in MUC.


peace,
4eak

[ParkerLewis]

This must have already been discussed, but has anyone tried counterbalance top in this deck?

Yeah. In the opening post.

[Poron]

may I have your opinion for Chrome Mox?

or better, can I have your opinion for Chrome Mox in a list that will surely play Chalice of the Void?

[ParkerLewis]

may I have your opinion for Chrome Mox?

or better, can I have your opinion for Chrome Mox in a list that will surely play Chalice of the Void?

If you want to play Chalices, then you more than need some acceleration, otherwise you'll look quite sad when you'll try playing your Chalice @ 2 by... turn four.

Hence, being mono-blue, I don't think you have a lot of choices except for Moxes. Or City/Tomb.

Does that mean you should play them in MUC ? I certainly wouldn't, for the large number of reasons already discussed. 4 Moxes aren't going to be enough to make your Chalices the least bit reliable (ie : not crap most of the time). You need more accel for that. Hence, City/Tombs. But now, the list still isn't optimal at all, because you have all that consistent accel that the Chalices required to not suck (and sure, now they definitely don't), but you're not doing much with it other than that (not to mention that those 2-mana lands do have their share of suckyness if not actively abused by the decklist). So how can you further take advantage of the TEMPO (you know, MUC being the antithesis of a tempo deck. hint, hint) you're gaining by having so much more mana than your opponent so early ? Certainly not by playing Shackles a turn earlier (well, with only one island in play, they would suck anyway). So ? Well, you play threats, of course ! Hmmm... aren't we just slowly morphing into Faerie Stompy ? Why, yes, we are : )

Don't get me wrong, FS is not a bad deck in any sense... it's simply a (totally) different one. Seriously, FS is a very fine deck. If you want to play Chalices in a blue shell, all chances are it's the best way to do so and you probably should pick the deck up. But in MUC... well, not so much. At all.