Yes, the pure-speed deck averages a win by turn 1.5-1.75.I understand your point of view and am not disagreeing with your path but one and a half turns? The protected versions are very solidly turn 3 for me with more turn 1/2 wins than 4+ wins, are you really saying your average turn is 1.5?
Protected versions can improve their ratio by willingly playing the combo without protection in a significant portion of their games (sometimes you don't have a protection piece, or you can only choose one or the other, etc.), and some may find this to be the best way to play (I know there are cases where I'd be willing to do it). In that case, as troopa' put it, "you could just have the protection when you draw it, and when you don't draw it, have more gas."
Almost guaranteeing protection takes a bit more effort though. If you force yourself to play protection before comboing off (and keep records of it), you'll see that the margin widens quite a bit.
The protection strategy assumes that it will be winning aggro/combo matches long before AdN becomes destabilized through lifeloss, remaining undisrupted by discard, and pre-emptively answering blue in the main. And, for the most part, I believe this is true of protected ANT decks. However, in my testing, the lifecost averages of successful AdN's rise as you water the deck down for protection, and AdN can become an unstable engine by turn 3 against many aggressive decks (some aggro decks can even win by turn 3). Additionally, short term disruption cards like Discard, Chalice, Teeg, and E-Canon are more likely to be casted and slow the protected version down long enough to buy aggro decks enough time to invalidate the use of AdN. While we do have IGG, it is not something that can be done with any real consistency.
The pure-speed strategy almost guarantees a win against aggro (and the protection really doesn't), and is less hindered by discard because of its redundancy. Several disruption pieces are often completely avoided because of the odds of winning so early. Short-term disruption strategies (which are eventually answered, but perhaps not before it is too late) are weaker against the pure-speed strategy; additionally disruption pieces that require bounce are actually most likely answered in a pure-speed build as it runs more card quality than another other build. The notable exception would a build that runs 4x bounce like blacklotus3636. Singletons of protection are quite powerful in the pure-speed strategy, and the deck definitely has the most to gain from the 1st protection/bounce spell as there are serious diminishing returns to any further development of protection functions until you hit a certain threshold whereby your deck plays a fundamentally different role.
Here is my basic rule of thumb: Combo belongs in an aggro-heavy meta (at least heavier than usual), and if you aren't there, then you should probably consider another archetype altogether. But, AdN is a strong card, and it can definitely win blue-matches (with and without protection in game 1). I doubt that combo is actually viable in a Legacy metagame that really prepares for it though. Combo winters are just unlikely until your combombs just overwhelm the control cards available to a format, and I definitely don't see that happening in Legacy.
I'd play combo because it is not expected, not because a metagame can't prepare for it.
peace,
4eak
@4eak
What does ESG in your Fast-List mean ?
.
do you think A.N will be banned for Legacy ?
I dont think so by a single statement :
one of the 3 most spells played is FoW ,A.D has no synergy with this card kind of card by its cost therefore if we Legacy players start to play A.N we will reduce the number of FoWs played .the A.N card even clean the format Agree?
And what about the side because having a 50% first turn win The side is quite important, could you tell me
which cards will you fit in and how will you side vs the most meta match ups?
Thanks
ESG = Elvish Spirit Guide
Summon pact + ESG = 1 free mana, storm count +1
@ Pelikanudo
It is the controversial mana-accelerant I use in the deck (I've honestly not found a better choice; it fills a niche).What does ESG in your Fast-List mean ?
I think it is too powerful for the format myself. The instant speed is what puts the card over the top. If they made it a sorcery I would say otherwise. The card encourages non-interactive play, and frankly, that isn't very fun for your opponent.do you think A.N will be banned for Legacy ?
Combo can be answered by the format though, so it isn't like we are going to have a combo winter.
To answer your question directly, I think it is possible that AdN could be banned, but I suspect that if combo became too prevalent, and WoTC had to ban any one card, it would be LED.
We most likely will not see FoW in ANT (although, a singleton is always possible), but I highly doubt any deck will ever reduce the number of FoW's we see in Legacy. In fact, FoW might become even more popular, especially if combo became a more mainstream (DTB and what-not) archetype. FoW is probably the strongest card available against ANT, and I doubt ANT's existence would ever lower the number of FoW's played in the format.one of the 3 most spells played is FoW ,A.D has no synergy with this card kind of card by its cost therefore if we Legacy players start to play A.N we will reduce the number of FoWs played
ESG/Pact/Ponder are the cards you take out for the sideboard.The side is quite important, could you tell me
which cards will you fit in and how will you side vs the most meta match ups?
You'll side in protection. Duress/PoN are my usual choices (I'm considering tampering with the main's mana base to just run my preferred Orim's Chant or an REB). Bounce is also a strong choice against permanent based disruption strategies (obviously). I keep a single Wipe Away, a Rushing River, and 2-3 repeals. If I only have one bounce in the deck, then it is Wipe Away. If I need bounce I'll usually bring them all in.
peace,
4eak
@ 4eak
Well I'm fallen in love with your deck my friend I've tryed it in MW and I've won 7 games from 10 in first turn กกกกกก yeah and in 2nd game you have 15 cards to face hace, well if WoTc decides to ban A.N or LED is because of the development of your deck , I've seen numerous decks about A.N and yours is the fastest and most solid .
I remember the list D.Gearheart made around A.N trying to fit it into Solidarity , the fastest win he got was 3rd turn....
Congratulations.
Could you tell me which is your side please and more detailed how to side vs the different threats and decks in the current format , I'm mainly interested in :
- 3shold
- 3shold (with c.b )
- Dreadnoutgh (also with c.b)
- Landstill
thanks
EDIT :I have some noob questions :
How exactly LED works in order to pay a part of the converted mana cost of Ad Nauseam?
does LED + Dark+ A.N provides a 1st turn win?
and LED+LED+A.N?
Infernal tutor+Elvish Spirit Guide+ LED + Dark ritual is a win too ritgh?
How does IGG and LED works?
Last edited by Pelikanudo; 10-07-2008 at 12:06 PM.
@ Pelikanudo
LED forces you to discard your hand. LED is generally used when you have no hand (or nothing worth keeping) and in response to big spells.
LED is used in 4 circumstances:
1.) LED/IT -- Spend your hand, cast IT, and in response pop LED to go hellbent on IT.
2.) LED to cast Draw phase AdN -- When you will have 5 mana available (and less than 8 or off color) because of LED, and you know you will be drawing AdN, you can play your instant mana spells during your upkeep and pop your LED, float the mana into your draw phase (no mana burn check), draw and then cast AdN. This is very common when you have Brainstorm and Mystical Tutor.
3.) IGG will often target LED/Dark Rit/IT to generate the maximum amount of mana post-IGG
4.) Popping LED in response to AdN can jump-start your mana-supply. Depending upon the circumstances, you may wish to just save your LED and pop it in response to an IT to grab ToA/IGG/Rit. I prefer to use it pre-AdN resolution usually because if I had both ToA and IGG in hand, my LED becomes useless. In this deck, it takes mana to make mana, and popping LED in response to AdN is a powerful play. Don't be scared to pop for blue!
As to winning combinations of cards, here is a quick way to evaluate hands.
Mana:
Lotus petal = +1 mana
LED = +3 mana (must meet above conditions to be popped)
Dark Ritual = +2 mana
Cabal Ritual = +1 mana (rarely thresholded in this version, but if you have threshold, it is +3)
ESG = +1 colorless mana
Summoner's Pact = +1 colorless mana (only on the turn in which you intend to win)
Land = +1 mana (clearly, one per turn)
Chrome mox = +1 mana with a conditional color (requires an extra card, so make a check for a card that you can actually imprint)
Casting Storm Engines:
1.) AdN = 5 mana (3BB)
This is the usual route to victory. Add up your mana and consider the conditions for playing the cards, and you should have no problem figuring out whether you can cast AdN.
2.) IT->AdN = 7 mana (4BBB)
LED is often used in this example, especially since generating the 7 mana is difficult to do on first turn without it.
If you open a 7-mana hand with IT in it, and it makes the color requirements (not usually the problem), then you can cast AdN.
3.) IGG -- this card goes all over the place. It is really the only card that requires thought. This is your 'oh-shit' card, and it plays several roles. It is often used at low life totals.
Storm generation usually includes the use of IT+IGG. For example:
IT->IGG->IT->Tendrils w/LED+DRit = 7 mana (3BBBB) for 7 Storm
IGG is also used to force discards, deal with low storm circumstances where you have ToA in hand and no brainstorm, or retrieving ToA from the graveyard.
peace,
4eak
What about it being an instant makes it unfair? The 10-15 cards are still drawn if it's a sorcery, and I find myself using it in my mainphase most of the time. Also, you're missing the potential interaction with Burning Wish, that would make the deck even stronger. Probably alot stronger.Originally Posted by 4eak
@ troopatroop
I said it was too powerful and unfun, and that being instant speed pushed it over the top. If it weren't instant speed, I don't think it would be as strong.What about it being an instant makes it unfair? The 10-15 cards are still drawn if it's a sorcery, and I find myself using it in my mainphase most of the time.
First, floating LED mana during your upkeep (or even in response to a cantrip after mystical or brainstorm) to draw and play AdN is a fairly common play. This would not be possible if it was a sorcery. The deck's mana-base is just too consistent when it can play its engine at instant speed.
Additionally, even alongside protection, against strong control decks where you can be forced to chain-bomb them in what can be longer games, sometimes you will cast AdN during their End step, tapping them out and blowing their control cards. I've even AdN'd in response to win conditions (as they usually tap out partially for it).
That is ironic because I've been testing Burning Wish as a support card for the protected version of this deck, and many times have I wished that AdN was a sorcery. However, this would be at the expense of LED and anti-control AdN plays, which is something I consider even more broken.Also, you're missing the potential interaction with Burning Wish, that would make the deck even stronger. Probably alot stronger.
Certainly, if AdN were a sorcery, then it would gain strength from being able to Burning Wish for it. I don't think that strength would match the gains from instant speed.
But, hey, I could be wrong. My end point is that I think the card avoids interaction too much, and it can be a very unfun card to play against. It certainly isn't Yawgmoth's Will or Bargain, but it is still just a bit too good.
peace,
4eak
Its interesting to me that combo can never be good. In most people's minds it is either unplayable or broken. At first I thought it was busted too but after testing with it I found it to be just really good. The fact that a deck has to be built around it to make it good means that you aren't going to see it put into every deck. Its definately a turn 2-3 deck with protection which definately speeds up the format at least 1 turn but I think once the format is prepared for it you'll see it drop off unless its banned altogether.
As for the deck I'm not sure about brainstorm. I feel the mana, protection and tutors work well and although brainstorm may be strong it does not find you a bomb like mystical and infernal tutor do. When I test, all I want is mana and a business spell+protection and brainstorm is not really a business spell. It can do neat tricks with LED but it doesn't really do much unless you already have a business spell. It helps sculpt your hand but all you want is AN so you can win. Just my thoughts
To not thirst for power is to be at the mercy of those that do
Heres my new list, It is testing well (not perfect but very well) vs red tempo thresh and dreadstill, as well as UWb cunning landstill. (i have also played red matchups and such as well and so on) It appears to have even to favorable matchups in all these games (possibly his failure to understand the lack of value on stifle in this game)
4 Cabal ritual
4 Dark ritual
4 LED
4 Lotus pedal
3 Chrome mox
4 IT
4 Mystical tutor
4 ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
1 Cabal therapy
1 Rushing river
3 Ad nauseum
1 IGG
1 tendrils
4 underground sea
2 island
1 swamp
7 fetches
SB
4 EE
4 Slaughter pact
3 Cabal therapy
1 tundra
1 Angels grace
2 other (bounce spells perferably)
EE is just so good.... Try it, the threats it doesnt handle in terms of disruption is teeg, and thats about it...
I c h o r i d - my anti blue
Manaless Ichorid- At least its cheeper than standard.
We admit for the sake of the exercise that following is true:
Landstill > Fromat
Non-Basic Hate > Landstill
Basics > Non-Basic Hate
We can therefore logically conlude that
Basics > Format
Hmmm, just to quibble over this : chalice @0 can't be handled neither by EE with your current manabase, can it ?
And if StaX or Chalice-Stompy decks are present is your meta, Serenity -even if a bit slower and less versatile- would be probably better than EE.
I've seen in some topics that you can anounce the A.Nauseam spell and the pop LED in order to pay the mana cost of A.N Can you do ..
a) play D.Ritual ->3 pool
b) play LED , I anounce I'm playing A.N spell and play it having 1 mana in pool and with no hand ?
That does not work because of the wording on LED:
The bolded portion means that you cannot play the ability after the declaration of a spell and before paying it's mana costs since you cannot play instants at that time.Sacrifice Lion's Eye Diamond, Discard your hand: Add three mana of any one color to your mana pool. Play this ability only any time you could play an instant.
therefore there is no way in normal situations to play A.N with the mana of LED
I mean LED doesnt help to get a 1st turn win unless you have infernal tutor in hand ritgh?
There are many ways in which to win on first turn while using LED. Sometimes it is used directly to cast AdN during the draw phase, othertimes in response to AdN, and often in conjunction with tutors or cantrips. Post-AdN, LED is still very important too.I mean LED doesnt help to get a 1st turn win unless you have infernal tutor in hand ritgh?
LED is doing most of its work on T2, but it will still be a powerful card even on 1st turn.
peace,
4eak
You cannot cast AdN during your first draw phase using LED...
Oops. I stand corrected. Let me retract that statement! =)You cannot cast AdN during your first draw phase using LED...
My point was that it has more value to first turn wins than just through IT or even directly casting AdN.
peace,
4eak
My doubts are invading me .....
therefore the only way to get mana from LED to cast A.N is knowing youre goint to draw A.N , This is not a 1st turn win.
I ask if you can cast A.N with + 3more mana open from a played D.Ritual + popped LED in anyway.
Most of all you need LED in play...
I'm not sure if I understand your post correctly but ...
The most likely way to win first turn via LED is land, Ritual, Ritual/Chrome Mox/Petal/CRitual, LED, Infernal Tutor->AdN.
It's also possible, though unlikely, to go land, Mystical-AdN, Petal, LED, another Petal, Ritual, Brainstorm. (The first Mystical can be a Brainstorm if you have no other play and get lucky.)
If somehow you can generate enough storm and have the win in your hand, you can also go land, Ritual, Petal/CRitual, LED, IT->IGG (getting Ritual, Petal, and Tendrils). This needs another two spells - if those two spells produce at least two additional mana, you go off without Tendrils, as you can IT for it post-IGG. If you drew two LEDs and can cast IT, you win as well.
The chances for these plays rise on the draw, obv.
You cannot ever win with land, Ritual, LED, AdN because of LED's errata. You have to sacrifice it in response to a spell you play, most likely Brainstorm, Ad Nauseam, or IT. You simply can't play a spell in your hand with LED mana (unless it has madness).
(And a good thing that is, else LED would be banned with absolute certainty.)
That said the first-turn win is decidedly less likely without LED because it's harder to a) go hellbent, b) produce enough mana, and c) tutor for AnD/IGG without ITutor (which despite being an okay setup spell kind of depends on LED).
Obviously, the above synergies (and more, like the draw step trick) still work perfectly turn 2 which is perfectly acceptable for a deck playing Duress.
It also makes it easier to use the IGG alternative and to find your win post-AdN via IT or even Brainstorm in a pinch, and cast AnD with mana floating.
That said I don't think it's necessarily the way to go, especially in disruption-heavy lists. It is only really good with IT and Mystical Tutor/Bstorm - the draw step trick, however, leaves you open to countermagic and Chant. If this is a big issue in your metagame I'd strongly consider playing another deck, though.
In my experience with other decks, LED has a tendency to be completely busted half the time and sitting around doing nothing the other - it's come up in testing too, though far less often with AnT than, say, my Dredge deck (or Belcher, for that matter).
Still, in the deck's current incarnation, the LED/IT version is what I'll be bringing to a real tournament. The synergies are more numerous here than in other LED decks I've played.
// gah. Had to apply a few errata ...
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