[Deck] Survival

[Al-ucard]

I think that call "free" at "Pay 3W and add a sacrificial effect to put an enchanment into play" isn't the best argument to discuss the inclusion of rector in this deck.

I think I prefer the non-tutor list and focus more in improve the draws adding more copies of the better cards this deck has (goyf, doran, eternal witness, confidant...)

Only my 2 cents

[Daeniel]

Sure, that's one possible direction.. and by far the most "logical" one, don't get me wrong. It's just that, while I like the beatdown version, I just find that other decks that can play that role much better.
Basically what you've is an aggro shell with some more flexibility, and a sort of "long term" plan; that's ok, but of course you're "diluting" the essence of a pure aggressive deck, so...

What I really like in Rec/Survival are the small synergies between different cards; a 'goyf will always be "just" a 'goyf no matter what, while in the other case cards that are much worse alone can really shine. And let's face it, deed and survival.. are these cards really good together? I don't really think so..

[quicksilver]

Almsot all of the Survival lists actually play control, not beatdown. Cards like eternal witness and confidant arn't there for beatdown, and doran and goyf are blockers lots of times. They also have the side effect of beating down if your opponents not doing anything.

[Adan]

Sure, that's one possible direction.. and by far the most "logical" one, don't get me wrong. It's just that, while I like the beatdown version, I just find that other decks that can play that role much better.
Basically what you've is an aggro shell with some more flexibility, and a sort of "long term" plan; that's ok, but of course you're "diluting" the essence of a pure aggressive deck, so...

That's what it looks like, but imagine Goyf and Sakura Tribe Elders to be upgraded versions of Wall of Blossoms and Wall of Roots.
They will gain you time until you find Survival or Deed. For Deed it's then necessary to recover with Eternal Witness.

The thing is that you can abuse Goyfs as beaters, not only as blockers like Wall of Blossoms.

[Al-ucard]

The thing is that you can abuse Goyfs as beaters, not only as blockers like Wall of Blossoms.

Good point, but I will add that they kill opposing attackers too, and the same is for doran.

[bigbear102]

I think that we can all agree on the fact that survival is not pure aggro, and that it is a very control oriented deck much of the time. The good thing about it is that it has the correct tools to move from aggro to control and back again.

In the combo matchup, the discard packages need to be combined with any SB hate that you bring in to control the early game, and then switch gears and accelerate into a more aggro mode to win the game before control can get back on its feet.
Against fast aggro, the deck needs to use its removal and life gain to gain control of the board, and then use the superior engine to become more aggressive to win the game.
The Control match is a bit more complicated as it can either be a war of attrition with Genesis recursion versus their removal, or you play aggro control with discard into quick beats, often it is both.

I think that by adding Rector and the necessary pieces to abuse her, you are weakening both the aggro part of the deck greatly, while only slightly increasing the control due to the difficulty of actually getting everything online.

I also believe that is true for the decks using Enlightened Tutor, but to a much lesser degree. If Enlightened Tutor is used as a method of finding Survival, and as a toolbox for 1-2 MD cards with a complement of SB cards, I can see its inclusion.

Personally, I dislike Deed in most Survival builds because you rely on so many cheap creatures to survive into the mid-game and take control. I believe that having efficient spot removal and the ability to generate CA by recurring that removal is the best game plan when dealing with most decks that Deed would be good against. The main problem with deed is that it disallows that quick shift from control to aggro when it is most necessary.

[Adan]

Absolutely. But I still would like to test it, but I fail at having enough Sakura Tribe Elders. -.-
By the way, Pernicious Deed is - like Burning Wish - a tool that is supposed to help you when you don't have Survival online or are going to be stomped by a horde of ~insert any tribal~.

It's also sick against Stax, Enchantress or Slivers (Crystalline Sliver in particular).

Anyway, the other Survival variant I'd like to test would be RGBSA. I don't know what's so fancy about it, but I'd like to test it.

I'll take Dave Price's latest build as a base since I think it's quite solid.

Questions I have about that:

How does it compensate the lack of Swords to Plowshares? I already lost a few games on MWS to Dark Confidants because they all drew their Dazes and Forces and so on to make Flametounge Kavu suck.
Was this the reason to play Fire Imp in the former builds?
But frankly, Confidants are yet the only thing I'm afraid of.

No Magus of the Moon: Srsly, if I look at the Top8 where he made 2nd place, why is he not playing even a single Magus? It can fist nearly every deck in that Top8 if timed correctly.

The source of CA: Eternal Witness over Dark Confidant.
I see that Eternal Witness is used as a source of CA over Dark Confidant because it generates CA as soon as it enters play since the format has got more creature hate than GY hate, making the GY a more reliable resource for cards.

Maindeck GY Hate - Faerie Macabre:

He's huge since he can be recurred and his effect is for free. But I don't know which decks are there to hate. Since he's playing Leylines in the SB, was the metagame heavy with Ichorid? Because I still assume that no one in the states plays Aggroloam yet. Mirrormatch?

edit: I took a look at his old list. The only thign that has changed was that he kicked Magus for the faerie. I'll stick to Magus, lol.

[quicksilver]

Questions I have about that:

How does it compensate the lack of Swords to Plowshares? I already lost a few games on MWS to Dark Confidants because they all drew their Dazes and Forces and so on to make Flametounge Kavu suck.
Was this the reason to play Fire Imp in the former builds?
But frankly, Confidants are yet the only thing I'm afraid of.

Although it's true confidant can sometimes be a problem you still have numerous answers to it. You can toughtsieze/cabal therapy it out of their hand. Once it hits the table you have FTK and Burning Wish as ways to remove it. You also can drop a survival which can match it's card advantage but gives you much better card quality. I guess you are trading swords for burning wish here, while it's true the wish is slower at killing the confidant it is more versitile. Also since confidant is almost never played, I don't see it as much of a problem.

No Magus of the Moon: Srsly, if I look at the Top8 where he made 2nd place, why is he not playing even a single Magus? It can fist nearly every deck in that Top8 if timed correctly.

I would not want magus against that top 8. Against the three thresh decks it's aweful. They can chose to ignore it a good amount of time (they can jsut send burn to your head if you are at low life), and besides the large amount of counters they can easily remove it. Best case senario against them it's a 1 for 1, sometimes all it does is chump a goyf or goose.

Against the landstill deck I might bring it in. He runs a good amount of basics and a low amount of man lands, the chances of it seriously impacting him are low. Plus he has a ton of ways to stop it, it would probably be just a 1 for 1 agianst this deck.

Against the epic painter it would probably be just as good as against the land still for the same reasons.

Against the sliver deck, they would probably have too much pressure on you to be wasting you time casting gray ogres. They have numerous ways to stop it and if you are in a losing bord position, it's pretty bad for you.

Against the other survivla deck it affects you just about as much as them, unless they play particularly badly.

In all I say cutting magus was definitly the right call for the tournament. I did not miss it. Almsot every deck these days can easily play around it.

The source of CA: Eternal Witness over Dark Confidant.
I see that Eternal Witness is used as a source of CA over Dark Confidant because it generates CA as soon as it enters play since the format has got more creature hate than GY hate, making the GY a more reliable resource for cards.

He is one of many sources of card advantage. Besides the obvious survival, you also have FTK, hardcast shriekmaw, wickerbough elder, tin-street hooligan, big-game hunter, and burning wish to gain you card advantage. Also if you want to look at that top 8 again, almost every deck ran 1 mana ways to remove the confidant, which nets you no card advantage, witness almost always gives you card advantage.

Maindeck GY Hate - Faerie Macabre:

He's huge since he can be recurred and his effect is for free. But I don't know which decks are there to hate. Since he's playing Leylines in the SB, was the metagame heavy with Ichorid? Because I still assume that no one in the states plays Aggroloam yet. Mirrormatch?

The Faerie's uses are pretty random. I have certainly beaten dredge game one with it. It's good against survival mirrors. It's good against intuition. It's good against life from the loam. Of those top 8 decks I would want it against: the other survival deck, landstill (he played eternal dragon), and epic painter to stop academy ruins. Sometimes he's just a 2/2 flier, but when he is useful, it's normally game breaking (just like magus only decks normally can answer magus, you can almsot never answer the faerie).

[hungryboi]

Dave, How does your deck fair against goblins? I recently converged my deck from RGB to RGBw and the goblins game has become easier. Although they can mess with your land, I am able to at least deal with a turn 1 lackey. The goblins I test against is a r/b version which is a better version against survival than a rbg version.

[AngryTroll]

I'd run FTK over Fire Imp, because Kavu can kill Painter's Servants and Fire Imp can't.

Against Thresh, Landstill, and Slivers, Magus seems like a bomb. True, Red Thresh will burn it away, but they are forced to burn it away before they can continue their plan. If you are low on life and they are holding a handful of burn, well, you are out of luck; in any other situation, it is going to soak up three damage and can buy you some turns.

Here's the list I'm running. I've been very happy-it feels more streamlined than many of the builds I've played with, and the mana base is better than the four color version.

Edit: after checking that link to Dave's list above, I'm a whopping two cards off. Rawr parallel development!

4 Birds
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Eternal Witness
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Shriekmaw
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Flametongue Kavu

1 Anger
1 Squee
1 Genesis
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Rofellos
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Flex Spot...I've been running a Gigapede or a second Rofellos, maybe even a Tin Street Hooligan


2 Divining Top
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
4 Survival of the Fittest

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
3 Bayou
7 Forest

Sideboard:
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Rough/Tumble
1 Gleeful Sabotage/Hull Breach
1 Primal Command
1 Haunting Echoes
3 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
Feel free to replace the Gleeful Sabotage and Haunting Echoes with Reverent Silence and Shattering Spree.

Top is great against control, great when you don't have Survival, and great when you do. It is mana hungry, so I only run two, but it is amazing. I still really, really like Burning Wish. The ability to get Pyroclasm, Chainer's Edict, artifact or enchantment removal, or a card like Haunting Echoes or Primal Command to just win the game is strong. I keep trying versions without Wish, but I always come back to running at least three. They are rather slow, and can feel a little clunky at times, but the flexibility and strength they donate to the mainboard is pretty significant.

[quicksilver]

Dave, How does your deck fair against goblins? I recently converged my deck from RGB to RGBw and the goblins game has become easier. Although they can mess with your land, I am able to at least deal with a turn 1 lackey. The goblins I test against is a r/b version which is a better version against survival than a rbg version.

I'd say it's about 50/50, better for you if they arn't running port. Althogh you may not have as many wasy to stop a lackey from hitting you turn 1, you can burning wish for pyroclasm which is extremly strong against them, often negating any lackey triggers they have and then some.

[hungryboi]

I'd say it's about 50/50, better for you if they arn't running port. Althogh you may not have as many wasy to stop a lackey from hitting you turn 1, you can burning wish for pyroclasm which is extremly strong against them, often negating any lackey triggers they have and then some.

The thing is that I play against versions of gobbos that run both ports and wastes. When going for a burning wish turn two, and then pyroclasm turn 3, it takes a total of two turns to wipe the board. After wiping board, they go, and have good chance to restock due to you spending so much time getting the pyroclasm. Depending if they go first, there are a lot of options they can do after the first turn lackey; mainly port/waste your land which will most likely end the game right there (lackey hitting + you losing a land and potentially a turn). Plus, even if they can't slow the pyroclasm down, they will most likely bring your life total below 10 due to a early rampage and your fetches which is reasonable to say that they are in range of killing you.

[Al-ucard]

Against ports you can't do anything, but anyway, if they use them they will be slowed too, but against wastelands you have to search basic lands with fetchlands and only go for the other colors lands when you have enough lands or only at the moment you need this color.

Finally I have to say that maybe sakura tribe elder helps a lot against this matchup.

[bigbear102]

Port does not slow goblins down very significantly. They have 4 Vials and 4 Lackeys, plenty of ways to get around having to tap their lands to actually play spells. And sometimes port can be doubly bad for you because while they are using it to slow you down, they are not overextending onto the board so your pyroclasm becomes weaker.

In my testing, STE is decent against goblins for the mana ramp it gives you while fighting port, and on the play is a fragile answer to Lackey. I would not argue in favor of STE as a good card to add just to fight goblins, but if you are playing the more control-oriented build and already have it, it is not a bad card to see.

@Deed: Obviously you aren't going to cast/pop deed unless it is advantageous to do so. I think that Burning Wish does everything you want Deed to do, and does it better. Wish for artifact removal against stax, Reverent Silence against Enchantress. Crystaline Sliver is about the only example that deed is better at killing, since they will normally have a muscle out to put it out of clasm range.

The big upside to Wish is that it is a tool you can use WITH survival online. It's not a card you will draw and wait for your opponent to screw up your plan and then use. It is a card that can stop your opponent from screwing up the plan you have.



So, after talking up Burning Wish, I want to play it again. I really want to play a list that has way too many non-creatures in it. Ideally, it would include:

4 Survival, 2 Top, 4 Thoughtseize, 3 Therapy, 4 Swords, 3 Burning Wish. Having half the deck not be creatures just isn't feasible, but I like all of those cards so much. Oh well.

[Waikiki]

Crystaline Sliver is about the only example that deed is better at killing, since they will normally have a muscle out to put it out of clasm range.

I've been using firespout as a wish target for this problem. In my meta there will always show some tribal decks.(merfolk/gob/sliver and elves)

[hungryboi]

@Deed: Obviously you aren't going to cast/pop deed unless it is advantageous to do so. I think that Burning Wish does everything you want Deed to do, and does it better. Wish for artifact removal against stax, Reverent Silence against Enchantress. Crystaline Sliver is about the only example that deed is better at killing, since they will normally have a muscle out to put it out of clasm range.

The big upside to Wish is that it is a tool you can use WITH survival online. It's not a card you will draw and wait for your opponent to screw up your plan and then use. It is a card that can stop your opponent from screwing up the plan you have.



So, after talking up Burning Wish, I want to play it again. I really want to play a list that has way too many non-creatures in it. Ideally, it would include:

4 Survival, 2 Top, 4 Thoughtseize, 3 Therapy, 4 Swords, 3 Burning Wish. Having half the deck not be creatures just isn't feasible, but I like all of those cards so much. Oh well.

I currently run deeds instead of Burning Wish mainly because of Counterbalance. I do think I should test burning wish in deed's spot which will decrease my dependency on black. I playtest with a friend who uses a variety of decks and whenever he has an option of destroying my land, he goes for the bayou in most cases.

This then raises the question of decreasing my Bayous from a set of 4 in my deck to 3 and increase my count of Taigas from 2 to 3. I'm not sure how this deck would do against goblins if it required red, black, and white equally since gobbos has ways of denying you certain colors.

If anyone has playtested these idea out, I would be happy to know what the findings are.

[Al-ucard]

Anyway, the main problem is that while you get your pyroclasm with burning wish or you can activate pernicious a fast deck like goblins has deal you enough damage to win the match easily. Maybe this deck need some 1 or 2 drop creatures that can give you this 1 or 2 turns to set up. (sakura or wall of roots are good examples I think, and walls with doran are awesome!)

[Jak]

Goblins is so difficult if you can't stop Lackey. Pretty much unwinnable. Adding Mongoose and Swords helped in the MU tremendously. It turned it around and I expect to win the MU now.

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
5 Forest

4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Sensei's Diving Top

4 Birds of Paradise
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Rofellos

1 Squee
1 Genesis
1 Anger

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Nimble Mongoose
2 Eternal Witness
2 Shriekmaw
1 Masticore
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Wickerbough Elder

This is what I have been running lately. When I do put Confidants in, I cut 1 Eternal Witness, 1 Quirion Ranger, and 1 Kavu. I feel more comfortable with this list vs Goblins with the 2 Rangers and Kavu is awesome.

My Sideboard looks a little something like this:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Plague
2 Gaddock Teeg / Extirpate / Hierarch / 4th Grip

Last 2 slots can be anything really and I switch them around a lot. Currently, I have 1 Hierarch and 2 Extirpate.

[hungryboi]

Just curious in why you'd run Wicker Elder over Harmonic?

[Tacosnape]

Just curious in why you'd run Wicker Elder over Harmonic?

Wickerbough Elder beats Blood Moon. Harmonic Sliver also requires white mana.

Goblins is so difficult if you can't stop Lackey. Pretty much unwinnable. Adding Mongoose and Swords helped in the MU tremendously.

Mongoose doesn't seem like a particularly good solution anymore in the world of Warren Weirdings. I'd rather run Mogg Fanatic. Fanatic answers Lackey and Fanatic gives you an awesome weapon against Ichorid. It's also sweet in Survival mirrors to take down opponents BoPs and, if they run them, Confidants.

Has anyone sat around and given any consideration to Lightning Bolt (Or even the more janky Firebolt) in BGR builds, rather than splashing white for Swords? It handles the Lackey problem. It gives you reach and works nice with Witness. It kills Painters. And it lets you bluff swing at things. And if you're running Shriekmaw and Big Game Hunter, there's very little that doesn't die to one of the three.

In my mind, white only offers Swords to Plowshares as a must now (Or Doran, if you're going the Rock-Survival sort of route). Other options include Loxodon Hierarch, Gaddock Teeg, and if you're me, Serenity in sideboard. Harmonic Slivers can often be Wickerbough Elders now. White's offering less and less.