[Out of Ideas for --->] Ur Control [Help]

[Poron]

I want to build a solid UR list, but I'm quite out of ideas.
I'm here for some brainstorming *_*

something we surely agree on:

20-22 lands

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire//Ice
4 Electrolyze
4 Brainstorm
x Pyroclasm or Rolling Earthquake or Earthquake

now:
counter/cantrip list?
Counter Top, suitable here?
Gelectrode, hot or not?

pretty hard to make a good list with these colors but I'd really like to do it

[Team-Hero]

Magus of the Moon or Ruination help.

[Mordenkaynen]

If you want to play multiple burn in non-burn deck without proper beaters, try Isochron Scepter.

[blacklotus3636]

I personally think of pure control in legacy as an obsolete concept because of the power level of the cards. Its difficult for me to say because I love blue based control but it is just not as good as other things you can do that are cheaper and faster. I can tell you from experience that force, stp, chalice and counterbalance are light years better when used proactively with cheap threats the way threshold and fairie stompy does rather than sitting around waiting for the next threat to answer. My advice would be to find a way to make it fast or play something else. You could try something like dragonstorm but I'm not sure how its much better than other slow blue combo like solidarity.

[Poron]

nono the idea is not to sit waiting for threaths the idea is to play burns/creatures, cheap counters and cantrips and go to win.

a sort of burn but more realiable with some strong "button" to control the board.

CounterTop Engine + Isochron Scepter here can be cool.
the same for Gelectrode if we can protect them

I would also consider the new Hell's Thunder, a flying Ball lightning 4/4 that returns once with Unearth. not bad.

Goblin Assault has to be considered also

[FoolofaTook]

UR Stompy Aggro Control

Creatures (20, 17 if Shushers are sideboard)

4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Magus of the Moon
3x Trinket Mage
4x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Vexing Shusher (can be sideboard but it works MD too because of Chalice)
2x Venser, Shaper Savant

Spells (19, 3 Pithing Needle MD if Shushers go sideboard)

4x Ponder
4x Force of Will
4x Stifle
3x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Chalice of the Void
2x Engineered Explosives

Land (21)

4x Wasteland
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
4x Ancient Tomb
3x Volcanic Island
3x Island
1x Academy Ruins

Sideboard

4x Tormod's Crypt
3x Pithing Needle
3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Pyroclasm

It plays very well against most themes, with a bit of weakness against a dedicated aggro rush like Elves, Goblins and Slivers. Not a huge weakness there, just not a very favorable matchup.

[Elfrago]

Regarding the last list posted:
CotV and 12 CMC 1 Spell != Combo!

Regarding the original post:
UR Control has already been discussed, and it still has the same problem: it has huge problems aganist a resolved Tarmogoyf . Fix that and maybe you will have a deck worth developing.
Or look into a more hybrid strategy, something like Control Slavery.

[Adan]

UR Control... I don't know whether I would recommend it, but UR Landstill sounds appropriate for this discussion. I'll show you my old list for food for thought:

// Lands
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [10E] Faerie Conclave
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [UG] Mountain
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
2 [UG] Island
4 [B] Volcanic Island

// Spells
2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
3 [GP] Repeal
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [B] Nevinyrral's Disk
3 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal
4 [B] Lightning Bolt
4 [AP] Fire/Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 3 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty

Meanwhile, we could play Spell Snare in the slot of Disrupting Shoal.

This variant of Landstill has to be understood more as an aggro-control deck that utilizes tempo-cards to gain speed (i.e. Repeal, Fire//Ice, Disrupting Shoal) and so on. Disrupting Shoal seems to be fine to me as it was important in teh Flash- and Goblin metagame to counter 1st Turn Aether Vials ftw. or to ensure that Flash does not resolve.
I think we could go back to Counterspell.

The Counterbalance Engine in the Sb is there to improve the weak lategame and because this deck can actually utilize the tempoadvantage Counterbalance generates. It also improves your combomatchups.

This is another good thing, you have less dead cards against combomatchups and have ways to dispose the few dead cards in a useful way (the 3 Thirst for Knowledge beside Brainstorm).

The sideboard can also be tunes like you want, of you expect a lot of control, play REBs, Pyroclasms and BEBs against a lot of Goblins and so on...

The only reason why I am a littlebit afraid of playing the deck again is Tarmogoyf since he's hard to handle with Burn.

edit: Found the old article of hi-val where he was wrinting about my Landstill last year:

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/new...cle/13901.html

Proof for that I have utilized the Academy Ruins-thing earlier than Clemens, hihi (Phyrexian Furnace because it had some synergy with Ruins and because BG Rock with their Ravenous Baloth were an issue. No kidding, the deck was frequently played in our region back then).

[Poron]

mm nono it's not something that plays the game as I would like.

My strategy is straighter, just set the opponent's life to 0 while soft-controlling the board

we can say this is a "try" to make a usable Burn deck that doesn't scoop to a single Chill

[Poron]

I would play something like

4 Sensei's Div Top
3 Counterbalance

4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice

2 Pyroclasm

4 Brainstorm
3 Magus of the Moon
4 Crag Puca
2 Mana Leak

22 Lands

I know the list is pretty bad, but this goes a little more in the direction I like.

CounterTop shell
Burns
Cantrip

soon +2 lands and +4 Mox diamond to support Shpranel Blast and fix mana base with Magus

[Adan]

mm nono it's not something that plays the game as I would like.

My strategy is straighter, just set the opponent's life to 0 while soft-controlling the board

Then what's wrong about my deck? You have manlands to beat the opponent under Standstill, Burn to the dome and Disks and Engineered Explosives and Repeal for boardcontrol.

we can say this is a "try" to make a usable Burn deck that doesn't scoop to a single Chill

My deck doesn't scoop to Chill, but whatever. Counterburn sucks hard.

[Mordenkaynen]

soft-controlling the board

Here threads of disloyalty go. Opposing Goofy is bad and yours is cool.

Mogg fanatic is not bad. It deals it's 3-4 damage usually, but also can remove some goblins tinkerer, nomads en-kor, confidants etc.

As opposite, magus of the moon is not what you want, because it's not straight-forward, but sometimes hard-locking.

And let us know about why do you want cantrips to be in the deck as appropoiate/important part? I can see the point in Thresh - sometimes with low amount of threats they control, dig and then win fast when the road is clear. You are not going to clear the road, so what's the point? If you want to be straight, you want to be fast and not waste mana and turns to draw.

[FoolofaTook]

Regarding the last list posted:
CotV and 12 CMC 1 Spell != Combo!

It's much less != Combo than you'd think when you play it. Chalice mostly drops at zero early on and then at two in the midgame. A lot of the time Chalice doesn't drop at all though, it really only goes down when you need it badly against the opponent's plan, that's why there are only two of them in the deck but five ways to find them.

People think that Chalice has to be a focal point of every deck it's in, but really - like Moat - it doesn't. I had a singleton Chalice kicking around in one of my idea decks awhile back. The deck wasn't very good but Chalice did help it beat FT two games in a row in a tourney, the first game by the blind luck of having it in the opening hand and dropping it turn 1 at zero because that's what you do in that situation and the second game by tutoring it up with Enlightened Tutor and dropping it for zero on turn 2.

[blacklotus3636]

I think what you are talking about is a counterburn deck. Burn can really only be used effectively in 2 ways. One is a source of control to burn creatures to buy time for something else which would be a poor strategy at this point because of goyf and friends and the other way is burn to the head. I think you are trying to have it both ways with a burn deck. If you build a burn deck you have to accept that hate is going to be very good against you. Playing burn is alot like playing slow combo, the more you try to add flexibility the slower it gets. Mono red burn is already a turn 4 comboish deck which is about as fast as other slow combo decks. Slowing it down anymore to add control elements or ways to deal with hate would make it strictly inferior to more traditional decks that are already about as fast and have better disruption tools. If you are trying to build a control deck however I think there are better tools in other colors.

[Team-Hero]

My favorite card against Goyfs when I play blue is Submerge. It's really nice when they use a fetchland, Survival of the Fittest, or any shuffle ability and you in response play Submerge. It's also nice tempo because if done early, you practically Time Walk them. Threads is also really good against Goyf. The only way you can deal with Goyf using red is to use cards like Threaten, Unwilling Recruit, Starke of Rath (I know... silly). I mean, seriously, You kill Goyf with Starke and your opponent:
A) Uses Starke to kill himself
B) Hits one of your creatures/artifacts (a creature/artifact you would of happily traded for killing a Goyf if the first place). Gives you back Starke
C) Does nothing and uses Starke to attack. In which case you bolt and play a second Starke

Bad tempo, but you can always use Starke and after he goes to the darkside, bolt his ass. Or brand.

I know, red has no real ways to deal with Goyf.

(Brooding Saurian + Starke of Rath is a fun combo)

[Poron]

eeehm are you all joking me? *_*

Resolved Tarmogoyf?
Mind Harness or Threads of Disloyalty

[Mordenkaynen]

What about current list?

[Poron]

4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
2 Rolling Earthquake

4 Brainstorm (so cool with fetchlands and Magma Jet)

4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 FoW
4 Threads of Disloyalty

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
6 Island
4 Mountain

[FoolofaTook]

I don't think that's going to work. Too many times you'll be holding half counters and half damage and be unable to maintain tempo with the opponent.

There's almost no disruption at all there to put the opponent back on his heels and you have no way to guarantee critical mass on damage with only 24 damage sources in the deck (3 in your opening hand on average and then drawing 2 every 5 turns thereafter.)

You will definitely win some games with the list but not consistently against tier 1 decks.

You'd be better off using blue for card advantage and filter instead of counters or alternately using red for more permanent damage sources to protect with the counters. Both options would increase the consistency of the deck since the card advantage and filter would get you to the direct damage more quickly and in context and the red permanent damage sources would give you increased return on the counters you use to protect them.

[jericohs@cottage]

Sounds like you are a begginer at Magic, BURN is a good start since it puts your opp on a clock and leaves the games intricacies behind.


Here's a low-budget (almost pauper deck) that was very viable in Legacy FNM. It's a little off topic though cause its a BURN.dec centered around COMBO and Not CONTROL

I used to play this Rw burn deck that played around the idea of getting your opponent to 10 life, then casting Hidetsugu's Second Rite. It's an instant speed spell that reads: "if your opp is at 10 then he is now at 0. Good Game."

What i would do is cast a timely lightning bolt on turn one, suspend rift bolt turn 2 or play lightning helix/incinerate at the end of opp's turn. Shock + another two points with another burn card on turn three at the end of ops turn. Any combination of burn that can effectively get your opp down to 10 on the dot. Pay attention to his fetches. Then I would cast at the end of my opp. turn a seething song into Hidetsugu's Second Rite or simply the later.

Funny deck to play cause it makes burn a combo deck. Plus since you playing all the burn as instants at the end of your opp turn, he can't counter anything. Also, spread your burn incrementaly (28 diff burn spells = 4 x 1dmg, 10 x 2dmg, 14 x 3dmg)

Then add 3 Seething Song, 4 Hidetsugus Second Rite (HSR), 4 Shrapnel Blast, 1 Beacon of Destruction. Shrapnel and Beacon is to help you kill your opp if your forced to get him lower than 10 life (Once in a while the math doesn't work). HSR is the combo finish.

Play with the Red & White Artifact lands and 12 other basics.

Oh, one last thing. Fling all burn at opp and not creatures. Only in very unlikely circumstances have I ever had to shoot a creature.


PS... WHY IS THIS POST IN A COMPETITIVE FORUM?