[DTB] Vial Goblins

[Mantis]

Okay, I just recently picked up Goblins for Legacy after having played with it a lot in Vintage. Anyway, what's your plan against Threshold on the draw. Would you just run into Daze or play around it with Lackey and Vial? Would you play a first turn Lackey or a first turn Relic assuming you have another good Goblin in your hand? Would you side in Chalice of the Void against Threshold?

So if EE is used to combat randomness it's probably safe to cut it then. In Holland the people generally just play good decks and the bad players might play random decks but I should have no trouble defeating them anyway.

I truly dislike Thorn of Amethyst, you've got better things to do on turn 2 and my T1 experiences with Thorn of Amethyst were really mediocre. And if it's mediocre there (with all the acceleration and lack of creatures in the format), it should be just bad in Legacy if you can't run it out on turn 1.

[ScatmanX]

"So if EE is used to combat randomness it's probably safe to cut it then."

there is: Empty the Warrens, crucible of world, counterbalance, Veldaken Shackles, jitte, vial, SoFI, oblivion ring (and the hole enchantress deck), moxen, and lots of random things. And EE deals with all instances of then, not just 1, like Krosa Grip (dont get me wrong, i like 4 Krosan in the board).
Plus, i think that, taking down 2 goyf and loosing 1 or 2 Piledrivers is a good deal. You can refill your boar way quicker then them.
I'm sad I can't find room for them. Maybe I'll cut the pithing needles and the Auntie (now MD), put 3 EEs, and another goblin.

PS: starting to playwith 1 Mad Auntie main. it rox.

[Mantis]

But only EtW poses a real threat of the things you've listed. You can handle the artifacts with Tinkerer or Hooligan, Oblivion Ring just trades 1 for 1 so that's not too bad. Anyway, I might be wrong as I never tested EE but it just seems very counter intuitive in a deck that is filled with permanents and likes it's cards to put pressure on the opponent asap. With EE you are just forcing the control role and I'm not sure that's what this deck wants. Also, I'm not sure if just Grip and EE are worth forcing the third color and opening yourself up to color screw in an otherwise very stable and consistent deck.

[ScatmanX]

I'm yet to have a problem with land screw. I have 7 fetchs, 2 taiga, 2 badlands, and 1 swamp (wtf? 1 swamp?) yes. It does not die to wasteland, so after fetching the swamp, I rarely need badlands, so i can go for taiga (1 swamp + 1 forest seems a lot riscky though).

Regarding the control thing, I kind of disagree. Goblins is better of as a control deck sometimes. Your CA is so great, You dont need to overwhelm the opponent asap sometimes, just land theats until they have no anwsers for them.

On EE again, I just think your not seeing the picture where it destroy 2+ permanents. Sure Oblivion ring is 1for1, but 2 oblivion ring makes EE looks sexy. Destroying 2 Shackles, 1 Shackles and 1 CoW...

For the record, they are constantly in and out my SB, so i'm not completly sure of it also. I'm just not discarding it.

[Mantis]

First of all, I really don't like a Swamp in the maindeck. I don't really care for Wasteland being used against me, in fact I kind of like them to use Wasteland on me so they lose tempo while I have Vial and Lackey to keep putting threats into play.

I agree with you that you like to play the control role sometimes but I used the wrong words in my previous post. I believe that in Legacy the terms control role and aggro role much less apply because of the nature of the format and the lack of inevitability of decks compared to the opposing decks. Take Goblins for example, even Moat is not inevitabile against us, whereas in a lot of other formats it would be.

Anyway back on EE, I mean it does work against the cards you mentioned but it sucks against the decks that play those cards. Jitte and SoFaI are played by Dragon Stompy, I'm sure as hell not going to put in a card that requires me to have 3 different types of land against a deck that plays 8 Moon effects regardless of if they sided them out or not, I'm not taking the risk. Vedalken Shackles is played by Mono U control and they play B2B so I want to fetch basics here. And still getting 3 non-Port, non-Wasteland lands up is quite difficult. But yes, I am missing the picture I just can't see EE generating that much cardadvantage, if you get really lucky you gain +1 cardadvantage but most of the time it will just trade and sometimes it's card disadvantage. For the huge mana investment required I don't really think it's that awesome. And let's get real here, most of the time it will just trade 1 for 1 with you investing 2 more mana then the opponent. I would prefer Krosan Grip here.

But like I said, I haven't tested it and if I run into a lot of problems with RB Goblins I will definately give them a try in RGB Gobs. If only it was because you said they were good and gave some strong arguments, they will be worthy of my testing time.

[ScatmanX]

Actually, I'm just discussing it, because I think that these tipes os discussions is what makes we get a better vision of our own decks, making us play better. The reason why I'm trying Rbg is because of Krosan Grips, EE was just one idea.

I really liked your argument, especially the par on B2B, and moon efects. That really does happens. You're right.

Abaout the swamp, I'm sticking with it. Wastlanding a Badland isn't as bad for them as is for us. If they run wasteland, they have mesured the pros and cons of it. If they sac it to destroy our badland, they must have a reealy good tempo going on, otherwise, what you say is right.

One more thing: Would you mind posting your Rb list? I ran it for a really short while, and wasant very happy, loosing a lot to CB, Shackles, Humility, Crucible of Worlds... I'd be like very much to see a RB list wich I would be confortable playing with, because right now, I'm thinking tha Krosan Grip and TSH help in a lot more ways then a Taiga makes dificult.

(I have seen and read your explanation on your SB 2 pages ago, so no need for re-explaining it. =])

[Mantis]

My list is pretty straightforward, I'm not sure on the manabase yet. The #4 Port might become #5 Mountain. Also, I am undecided on Sharpshooter, there's not much Fish or WW going on so it probably suck, although it's another way to kill under Moat. Perhaps a sideboard card.

3 Badlands
4 Mountain
4 Port
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Warchief
4 Piledriver
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
2 Siege Gang
1 Mad Auntie
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Tinkerer
3 Warren Weirding

And for the sideboard I will replace the Leylines with the Relics.

Also, I'm undecided on the third color. Really I would love to play Krosan Grip and TSH but I just need to get some testing in. But I'm not even sure Tin Street Hooligan is better than Tinkerer, because you can just drop a Tinkerer and they can never go off with Painter/Stone and they can never set up the CB/Top lock.

[ScatmanX]

Nice list.

The TSH is not suposed (i think) to run in place of Tinkerer, but alongside with it, because, though they "do the same thing", they act very diferently.

The relics are working great for me right now, so i think cuttin LotV is a good idea.

I think the manabase it's ok. I would run my swamp, but I'm the only one to think that way (and my version have more black).

[Ectoplasm]

Just a quick thought for Mantis, but MD'ing a card that turns your fanatics into shocks and potential lightning bolts (sharpshooter) is always a good idea! Couple it with a siege-gang and he just goes nuts.
Sharpshooter looks situational at first, but you can pull off some crazy stuff with him so he'll almost always be relevant. Also he can hit random shit like bob, eternal witnesses, destroy etw/bitterblossom tokens etc, especially if you have a warchief in play already.

[Shriekmaw]

What problems does Engineered Explosives solve? It seems really slow. We already discussed Counterbalance and most found it to be not much of a problem. Bringing in a card that generates a lot of tempo loss when it's Stifled just doesn't seem like a very good idea to me. Also, you have goblins that cost 1, 2 and 3 mana thus you will very often be forced to blow up your own Goblins.

Engineered Explosives solves many problems. It solves multiple plagues, kills goyfs, moongoose, and counterbalance. It's just a good utility card in the board for a lot of other matchups were they might become helpful, all depending on your boarding strategy. I don't board in this card often, but its definetely worth having in there. Also, 3 Krosan Grips just doesn't cut it sometimes to fight through plagues.

Matchups where I board it in: Threshold, Decks/w E. Plague in board, Storm Combo (goblin tokens).

I can't believe people are such noobs when it comes to not only playing goblins, but sideboarding. I believe more playtesting is involved if you don't see the uses of engineeered explosives in the board.

Also, you must know how the matchup of a deck changes after game 1. Goblins is a great game 1 deck to play, but after that it can become very difficult to win when facing multiple hate cards.

[kicks_422]

Thing is, most people aren't packing SB hate anymore for Goblins. Remember when UGW Thresh ran Tivadar's Crusade? And when every deck with black ran 4 Engineered Plagues? That's not the case today.

[Seriously]

on a side note, does anyone have a properly optimized mono red goblins list ? or even just what the land count is for mono red. I currently dont have $160 extra to spend on land just to add 4 warren weirdings.

[Zinch]

I play mono red, because I think is the best configuration in my meta (with so much non basic hate and dreadstill decks with sifle). I play 22 lands:
14 Mountain, 4 Wasteland and 4 Rishadan Ports and I don't have any problem with the mana base. seriously, never. You should try it (I know mono red give less options, but thacosistenci of this mana base is incredible)

[Mantis]

Originally Posted by nickrit2000
I can't believe people are such noobs when it comes to not only playing goblins, but sideboarding. I believe more playtesting is involved if you don't see the uses of engineeered explosives in the board.

I'm sorry, did you just call me a 'noob'? I play this game for over 10 years and have won and T8-ed many tournaments I play. I have never heard this accusation coming from anyone besides people who are considered 'bad players' themselfs (ie people from MWS). I'll just pretend you didn't say that, to avoid flamewars.

But if you read my previous comments closely I already mentioned I need more testing before I can dismiss Engineered Explosives. I was merely questioning it's use. Now that I've gotten a lot of responses from people saying Engineered Explosives is the nut high for them, I will give it a shot. That's why I discuss things in the first place. And if you don't board it in that often, you should keep asking yourself the question 'Is it worth it?' as well.

@kicks_422;
Yes, that's the exact same observation I made. Besides occasional Pyroclasms and the White Stax components, there's not much Goblins hate going around.

@Ectoplasm;
We have played on MWS in the past and I value your opinion highly based on the playskill you presented there. So I will definately give Sharpshooter a closer look, thanks for responding.

EDIT:http://www.starcitygames.com/php/new...cle/16596.html :-\. Opinions on this list? Is this list only good for a combo heavy metagame, is it insane or flatout bad? I think I would replace 2 Siege Gang with Piledrivers. The sideboard looks very odd and different then anything we talked about. Perish doesn't really seem needed with Relics from the board.

[ScatmanX]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/new...cle/16596.html

I haven´t like thins list very much... Maybe for a combo meta, but even then, I would put CotV in the SB.
2 Wort main seems too much.
1 Piledriver is bad (in my opinion)
Think 24 lands is too much.
Don´t like 4 Warren's md (my meta has too much goblins)
Side is very weird.
What I like, was the Mogg Fanatics of the board. I have recently started testing my built without them, and not complaining so far. (meta without Ichorid, though with lots of goblins).

nickrit2000's comment, I think, should be ignorated, since calling people "noob" is not really an argument.

[Shriekmaw]

I'm sorry, did you just call me a 'noob'? I play this game for over 10 years and have won and T8-ed many tournaments I play.

My disagreement isn't with you in particular, but many magic players. A lot of players don't playtest certain cards and just make stupid comments. Even though I don't board it a lot, whenever I do its been pretty amazing to say the least, thats why its in the board as a 2 of.

If you want to run a mono-red goblins deck, then why wouldn't you play the full 8 fetches in it as the posted stated above? Your not going to actually play 14 mountains, are you? I understand building decks on budget concerns, but sometimes you have to spend a little money. I would just focus on building 1 deck, but build it well.

Side Note: Just because you played this game for over 10 years does not make you good. Where exactly are you winning or top 8'ing tournaments?

[kicks_422]

Well, 8 fetchlands just for deck thinning doesn't really help much. The life loss sometimes becomes relevantly bad for you, which is magnified if all you're getting with them are Mountains.

[Seriously]

I play 22 lands: 14 Mountain, 4 Wasteland and 4 Rishadan Ports and I don't have any problem with the mana base.

would you ever run fetchlands in a mono red version, just for thinning ? or is that not needed with ringleader just putting the nongoblin cards on the bottom of the library ?

[Shriekmaw]

would you ever run fetchlands in a mono red version, just for thinning ? or is that not needed with ringleader just putting the nongoblin cards on the bottom of the library ?

The answer is Yes. I used to play mono-red back in 2005 when I went to GP: Philly. I played all 8 fetchlands with a mana base of 23 lands.

The fetchlands are very important in order to draw threats by thinning the deck. It may not seem like a big deal, but the more you playtest the more you will see how of a big deal it is. It also improves ringleader. When you hit 4 mana which is optimal in goblins, you don't want to see any more land, but rather threats.

I think fetchlands are always necessary, it doesn't matter what version of goblins you are running.

[Tacosnape]

@Nick: That was 2005. This is now. This is the era where Burn and Goyf Sligh-type decks are actually played. The life total arguably matters more now. Whether it's enough to warrant including/not including the fetchlands is up for debate, but the terrain's a little different. Although you could make the counter-argument that almost nobody plays Stifle anymore, which makes the fetches better.

Personally, assuming my Mono-Red build ran no maindeck cards besides Aether Vial that weren't Goblins, I wouldn't run the fetchlands. I'd run my 14 Mountains and my 8 Mana Denial Lands and go with it. It's worth noting that with Relic of Progenitus being the new awesome sideboard card for yard hate that it's a lot easier to keep a Tarmogoyf shrunk with Relic's first ability when you aren't putting fetchlands into your -own- graveyard.