Words of Wind won't target, so you'll need lots of draw skips to make it have your opponent's threats be affected by it at all. If this is your wincon, you should be replacing draws with damage, not bounce. If this is a controlling measure, how in hell does it work?Originally Posted by slaiter
Keep moon-walking.
Words of Wind + Ground Seal for massive board advantage.
Words of Wind + Exploration + 1x Enchantress + 1x Enchantment in hand + a few enchantments on the board and a Serra Sanctum = Win.
Words of Wind + 2x Enchantress effects + 1x Enchantment in hand (or 1x Enchantress effect + Ground Seal) + Enchantment on the board = Win
Words of Wind + Exploration + Enchantress Effect + Sanctum = Massive mana
Words of Wind + Enchantress Effect + Sanctum = Lots of mana
I've been playing around with it for a while. It massively speeds up the goldfish of the deck (down to like turn 4 consistent kills), but I haven't really found that it's worth the cards. The engine pretty much requires running 3x Exploration, 3x or more Words of Wind, and 3x Serra's Sanctum. This really cuts into the toolbox (losing critical cards like Karmic Justice and additional Seals really hurts a lot of matchups).
It's really cool to go off (the combos seem complex, but basically Enchantress Effect + Words of Wind = GG), but honestly, I don't think the deck is better. Words of Wind is quite weak against combo and fast aggro (esp burn), and its only strong MU is control where it relies extremely heavily on having resolved Enchantresses working (which are pretty much GG anyway).
I find that I'd rather have Karmic Justice 99% of the time that I see Words of Wind (or they're both pretty dead like vs. Goblins).
It's unbelievably strong against Thresh, though. Like unbelievably strong.
Let's not let this get to page 3.
Forbiddian, why would the inclusion of words of wind require 3 maindeck slots? Obviously when it's good you want to find it, but if the matchups where it is actually powerful are so few, why not stick it in the sideboard as a one or two of? The deck has enough draw and tutors to locate one in a timely fashion.
To those who played this deck in the Source tournament (Zach and Matt, I believe):
I'm sorry if you've already posted an answer to the following questions somewhere, but I was wondering why the deck didn't perform as expected (assuming you expected it to win, which I can only imagine you did). Was it a matter of play mistakes, or was the deck simply outclassed? If the former is the case, what lessons can be learned? If the latter is the case, what needs to be fixed? Thanks.
I definitely did not play Enchantress at the source tournament. I expected ridiculous amounts of Ad Nauseam Combo (and was relatlively sure that 4 chant in the board wasn't nearly enough to beat it). It turns out that 4 Trinispheres and 4 Chalices weren't enough either.
Anyway, I think that Enchantress just isn't justifiable anymore. Like, combo is getting faster (although that isn't much of a change - we'd lose on turn three just as often as on turn two) and, as a result, the decks that could beat combo (that we could beat, like Landstill) just aren't being played anymore.
Aydunno. I prolly won't be rocking my Savannahs anytime soon.
To answer the questions that I neglected like two months ago, Chrome Mox is amazing. For a deck that isn't worth playing right now. Like, really good.
The E.P.I.C. Syndicate: I mean, if they play a lullaby for babies they should at least play the Monster Mash when somebody dies.
Zach played DS,
Matt ran into some bad luck. I beat him with Ichorid solely on luck.
This message has been deleted by Nightmare. Reason: Boo fucking hoo
Well, some of these I can answer.
Zach played Dragon Stompy. Even though I desperately tried to get him to play Enchantress (Matt was there! This could have been the time to prove your dominance! Well, they were pretty persuasive to me at least), he wouldn't budge.
I know that Matt played against Matt McNally playing EPIC Painter in round two.
Game one, Matt's hand was awful, even after he mulliganed.
Game two, Matt (McNally) walks into Choke.
Game three, Matt (Elgin) mulligans to three.
:(
Since his hand wasn't; Forest, Utopia Sprawl, Argothian, Matt (Elgin) lost.
Matt had some awful luck in the rounds. I saw some of them.
EDIT: Damn, I got super sarnath'd. :(
Last edited by Deep6er; 10-22-2008 at 11:31 PM. Reason: Super sarnath'd. :(
For the foreseeable future, expect to see less of me. I've lost my internet connection, and so I'll only be able to get on by siphoning free Wi-Fi from the surrounding areas. Which isn't always consistent.
Plus, the guy that I used to leech off of has now instituted password protection. This means that I effectively do not have internet at home. :(
That's...really depressing. If chant isn't enough out of the board, is there any way adding abeyances or teegs or something could make the matchup at least decent without ruining other matchups?
Edit: Thanks for the rundown Deep6er. Do you think the poor record had more to do with bad luck, then?
Meh, I'll still play Enchantress because itstill hasawesome MUs against other decks. I would totally just disregard the combo MU and focus on beating Aggro (gobs and goyf sligh mostly), control (landstill, ITF, decks with sweepers), and Thresh. Karmic Justices, additional Replenishes, Choke, Humility, Runed Halos, etc will all increase those MUs. Hopefully combo gets bogged down by all the counters out there and Enchantress can focus on beating those decks. Have faith guys :)
Yeah, TES is a pretty big bummer for Enchantress.
It beats everything Enchantress does better and Enchantress loses to everything TES loses to (other than specific TES hate, but in general Counterbalance, lots of countermagia).
I've gone back to the absolute grassroots of Enchantress in T1.5, when it was a port of the four-color Vintage Enchantress back in 2002. GWB.
I cut WAY back on the Enchantment count in exchange for maindeck Duresses/Thoughtseizes. The aggro MU is a little worse game 1 (mainly because you the Enchantment count is lower, so it's harder to resolve Solitary safely on T3). Still, if anything the control MU is better as is the Aggro Control MU.
It's WAY more susceptible to nonbasic hate (but Epic Painter and Dragonstompy will hopefully be forced out of the meta by TES).
GWB Enchantress still has a bad MU against TES (horrible, actually), but it's a little bit better and it's a little bit better at stopping the countermagia. Even with only 30 Enchantments, a resolved Enchantress is almost always game against control.
I don't see how the GWr version can survive, though. The new meta has way more countermagic and it's much faster (the two banes of Enchantress). The only way I see Enchantress surviving is getting under the countermagic and under the combo clocks by throwing out disruption.
I don't believe enchantress has the same bad matchups than TES. Enchantress has, in fact, not that bad matchup against counterdecks*. Actually, some thresh (and thrash) versions are quite good matchups. Dragon stompy is not that bad as a matchup, too.
Enchantress has IMO fair parings almost against anything in the control and aggrocontrol range, a horrible matchup against combo and a nice/fantastic matchup against aggro. It's sure still a good option for some metas (I'm thinking about the EU) where combo is particularly unplayed, and an overall fair (not fantastic nor horrible) game in almost any meta but combo.meta.
*counterbalance is not the bitch that is for combo decks, when you're playing a deck that has its bombs in the 3cc and 4cc range.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
Maybe we're playing the deck differently or just run a few different cards (esp in the board), but I have a really horrible time against Aggro Control and Control (like ITF) and have a solid MU against all combo decks except TES.
The fact that TES is nearly auto-loss (without like MD 4x Orim's Chants) means that it's going to be uphill playing Enchantress.
TES will probably come up on as much as 20% maybe even 30% of the meta based on low relative cost and high performance against most decks.
Any tips against how to play against control? I typically try to lay out my Enchantresses (Wild Growth on turn 1 to play Argothian Daze-Immune, but if I only have Enchantress's Presences, I cast it on turn 2 whether I'm on the play or the draw). Then I play cards like Choke and Karmic Justice. Then I go into draw mode (assuming they countered my bombs).
It's kindof predictable, and really straightforward, and I think there's something I can do playskill-wise to improve my MU against Dreadstill.
That's not even remotely accurate.
TES and Solitaire have completely different match-ups. Enchantress has a very good match against Dragon Stompy, and about even to favorable matches against most control and aggro-control (although game 1 can be rocky).
Basically, I was tired, hadn't played in a while, and the building was giving me KGB basement vibes, so my ultimate downfall I attribute to giving into The Fear.
I did have some bad draws and mulled to 3(not a good 3, either) on one occasion. But my real problem was playing the deck too defensively. The fact that my deck didn't bail me out of my subpar playing is less relevant, I think.
Although in testing I did find Team America to be an awful match-up. I want to test 4x Multani's Presence in the SB to try to answer that while still being flexible. Probably with 2x Choke and 1x Mesa as an anti-control suite.
With all the mana denial running around, Angel doens't seem as good.
Early one morning while making the round,
I took a shot of cocaine and I shot my woman down;
I went right home and I went to bed,
I stuck that lovin' .44 beneath my head.
I don't see how the comparison is invalid between TES and Enchantress. Specific decks like Dragon Stompy or Dreadstill might prefer TES opponents to Enchantress opponents, but keep these in mind:
1) We lose to TES.
2) We beat the same decks (Aggro) that TES does, and we lose to the same decks (Control Suite) that TES does.
Therefore: The TES push will force aggro out of the meta (our good matchups) and replace it with TES (a disaster) or Control (not great, 50/50ish at best if we brought a good sideboard).
Unless there's a massive flock toward Dragon Stompy or something ridiculous that we happen to beat, it's pretty much guaranteed that Goblins, Zoo, Aggro Thresh and Aggro Loam are going to go down and Counterbalance-based control is going to go up. Enchantress survived on molesting Aggro completely in Aggro metas and then having a decent MU against Control. With TES out, I don't see how a meta favorable to Enchantress survives.
I don't know when Enchantress became a deck that preyed upon Control decks and lost to Aggro decks, but I guess it did?
TES may rise in numbers, but then control and aggor-control numbers will rise as well. This means aggro decks will still have favorable MUs out there. The circle of aggro, combo, and control isn't as relevant today since the lines are so faded, but you can't assume TES will just take over. It still loses to its bad MUs.
Enchantress can be tuned to beat any deck (outside of combo) since it has so many tools. The cards I mentioned help a ton against control and aggro-control. You can even add one more, City of Solitude.
Except you don't fear the same sorts of things as TES. Team America, for example, is a bad match-up not because of the regular control elements, but because of the mana denial elements. You are much less vulnerable to Counter-balance and CotV than TES, and more vulnerable to fast pressure.
Also, I think you may be exaggerating the ascendence of storm combo.
Early one morning while making the round,
I took a shot of cocaine and I shot my woman down;
I went right home and I went to bed,
I stuck that lovin' .44 beneath my head.
The fact is, mana denial decks are often bad matchups of (8 land-auras)Enchantress. Even if they play Karmic Justice or even Sacred ground.
I confess, I did never test Enchantress in the post-AN meta. But I do believe that enchantress can be tuned to beat almost anything non-combo. You can just pack 3 MD Replenishes/Choke/City of solitude against counter decks, or play a lot of Karmic Justices against board control decks, or play loads of Moats/Solitary Confinaments against aggro. Enchantress just can't win against combo. The format is not, right now, combo-based, so enchantress is still a competitive deck IMO.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
Yes, of course you can fine tune Enchantress to beat anything. The fine tune that I suggested is going back to the black splash variant, which would help TES as much as possible and won't be so dead in the control meta as it was in the higher aggro meta.
Enchantress, like all other Tier 2 decks, is a metagame choice. A 10% shift in decks from easy-to-beat decks to hard-to-beat decks will really hurt our chances.
I think I do overestimate TES's impact, but if it has even half the impact I think it will (second place at Source should propel it into the spotlight even more), it'll make Enchantress look much different.
of course, you can prepare your list against certain types of decks, but at the moment there are just too many overpowered decks compared to enchantress. and if you change the deck too much enchantress will be known as a Hate deck and not as enchantress anymore. only matchups we like are aggro and burn, right? we lose against all sorts of storm except solidarity and we especially lose against decks like aggro loam, team america, pox, stax, it's the fear and other decks with some kind of devastating destruction/disruption/damnation. i'm talking about lands.. it's gg as soon as our lands are wasted or our engine is discarded or countered. I've even lost against dreadstill and my build definetely wasn't fault nor did I make any mistakes regarding playstyle, mulliganing or boarding.
There's so much control and storm around i'd suggest just locking enchantress away until either WotC decides to balance Legacy so good ol' decks like enchantress and some aggro decks have a chance again or some new superspecialawesome mythic rares for enchantress show up.
I'm playing Goyf Sligh now. WITH BLACK!
I want a banana this big!
Actually we beat Aggro Loam and Stax. I haven't tested vs. ITF but I woudn't automatically assume the game goes against us.
As has been said, the standard lists have an even to favorable match-up vs almost any control deck.
Early one morning while making the round,
I took a shot of cocaine and I shot my woman down;
I went right home and I went to bed,
I stuck that lovin' .44 beneath my head.
I'm not sure if I'm reading this correctly, but I believe that you're saying that all of these are poor matches. Allow me to disillusion you:
- Aggro Loam
- First of all, here is a video (from the two-man tournament played over this summer)(it's a link to the video so don't feel weird when it links you to another site)(also, this other site is completely safe for work) that shows you almost exactly what Enchantress wants to do against Aggro-Loam.
- If you're too lazy to go watch, the game plan is RESOLVE SACRED GROUND. Or, I suppose, play a copy of Sacred Ground in your board. That shit's mad important, although you can usually get by without it by dropping a Moat or something to stall game one (I'll freely admit that game one will be rougher than the following two) until you can set up a win off of WOW (as Pegasus tokens eat it to DD for 1).
- If you'e not playing Sacred Ground you have the standard "3 Karmic Justice between main and board" plan, which I've found to be pretty potent. Although that doesn't save you from the sacrifice part. In short, friend, always run a copy of Sacred Ground in your board.
- Team America
- This is like Canadian Thresh, only their removial that can't be shot at your Enchantresses also can't be pointed at you. Their greatest threat (I'm treating Tombstalker as that for the time being, as you can chump Goyf with an enchantress if necessary) is also propper answered by Elephant Grass.
- In short, here's the game plan:
- Just walk into Sifle if you have to.
- Always put your Utopia Sprawls and Wild Growths on basics.
- Resolve Choke (Matt and I have both been advocating that as a 1-of pre board for a while now).
- Now, while Choke is on the board, play Elephant Grass.
- Make sure he signs the match slip before he goes to get pizza (universal code for "I done lost").
- Seriously - it's like playing against Counterbalance Thresh, only he can't lock you out with Counterbalance. I wouldn't even board in the Sacred Ground.
- Stax
- Hold on. I want you to say this with me:
- My deck plays 58 permanents, and two cards that brings every good card in the deck back from my graveyard. I will not complain of a poor Stax match.
- Seriously. Chalice is answerable (as you should play 1 2cc and 1 3cc disenchant enchantment main deck, with a third of either CC in the board) and you generate dumb mana to get around 3sphere. Additionally, your curve starts at three.
- It's the Fear
- This plays Counter/Top (bad for you if they pack 3cc spells)(which ITF does), Deed, and an Intuition pile that ends up in recurring Explosives. But worry not! Here's the game plan:
- Resolve Choke before he resolves EE@3 or Deed (with mana up).
- Or, (I suppose this could go in front of that), get City of Solitude down (also played as a 1-of maindeck for years). This shuts down the Top part of the CB/T engine. So, he'll leave it at three like a chump, you'll play three Argothians, play a bunch of enchantments into Counterbalance, then play Replenish.
- OR you could just resolve a copy of Karmic Justice and a copy of Sterling Grove (in order to prevent the savage "EOT Grip Justice, untap, rape your face with Deed" play).
- Remember, you should be playing at least two copies of each card mentioned here.
- You should be fine, grasshopper.
- Disruption Decks (I'm going to treat this example as though it's mono-black/mostly-black aggro)
- Elephant Grass
- You could board a copy of Spiritual Focus (go ahead, look it up. I had to when Spatula suggested it forever ago). That really makes discard poor (but don't freaking argue that "well, they got rid of what they wanted to, so you had to draw a random card" trash. You gained life (important against aggro decks) and drew a card (important against decks trying to keep you hellbent).
- ....Damnation?
- I can only assume that this means "Mono Black Control" decks. Which dont' have a way (save Nevvy's Disk or Oblivion Stone) to answer your enchantments. I pray to run into decks like this in tournaments.
God, I love lists.
EDIT: I suppose that I'll stipulate that Pox is a poor match (if they have white to answer your Sacred Ground). Otherwise, you just aren't trying hard enough, dude.
The E.P.I.C. Syndicate: I mean, if they play a lullaby for babies they should at least play the Monster Mash when somebody dies.
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