Actually I have played zoo before and I always enjoyed playing the archetype especially back in the old 1.5.Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
I consider price of progress better then alternative burn because it wins games on the dime. While lightning helix doesn't quite get there at times. I like to have price of progress on hand especially in a developed metagame. But even in a unknown meta price of progress can potentially be a bomb.
As for the balanced thresh matchup if you don't have the tools and/or the mana curve to play around counterbalance then you probably are going to lose. Technically it doesn't really matter how skilled you are unless of course the threshold player keeps hitting blanks with counterbalance or simply couldn't draw counterbalance in time. However, to be on the safe side that doesn't really happen often.
Team Hammafist!
Other than Nectl I would rather play Goyf sligh, simply because of PoP. But we aren't discussing Gofy sligh. I think that the new 3cc creature actually fits the curve, thats why I would play it. watchwolf doesn't cut it any more.
Really? Your meta must be an interesting one indeed. In any meta I have ever played a resolved PoP is almost always Game Over.
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
+1. I think Price of Progress is the biggest selling point Goyf Sligh has over this deck, and it's a big one. I'd rank the best three burn spells as Price, Bolt, and Magma Jet, although I am not sure about the order. Price is a house; I completely disagree with PulpFiction. Price offers reach that is simply unmatched by any of the other options.
In what matchups is Price not a massive burn spell? Elves? Solidarity? Goblins? The real question is whether Necatl (and possibly Wolly Thing) makes playing White stronger than playing RG and Price of Progress and Fireblasts.
Once a list is agreed upon for three color, it can be compared to Goyf Sligh. It is still possible that RGW will get more goodies out of this set, so I will be curious to see a refined list and test it alongside Goyf Sligh.
As everyone is posting lists, this was the first one I drafted:
4 Mogg Fanatic (or just more burn)
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Figure of Destiny( / Kird Ape)
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Hidden Herd
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Helix
4 Fireblast
2 Rancor
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Ronom Unicorn
SB: 4 Price of Progress
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
Ronom Unicorn seems like a logical response to Counterbalance, no?
Thoughts about Rancor? Plus side, it lets a lot of your guys take down a Goyf on their own. Minus side, if they Swords your guy in response, it makes you sad.
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
If you play Woolly, Grunt might be better: Both come down on the third turn (Grunt sometimes second), with Grunt saving you one mana for another spell that turn. I think Grunt dying after two turns (or three turns) doesn't matter much, as I think Wooly won't be around much longer - they either trade with a creature or removal spell, or deal enough damage in two attacks that you can burn your opponent out.
There is SOME dis-synergy with Lavamancer, I think that shouldn't be overvalued: Even if you draw both of them, one is probably going to be removed by your opponent very soon anyways.
georgjorgeGeistreich sind schon die anderen.
I took this list last night to a top 4 split at my local tournament out of 21 people:
3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kird Ape
4x Skyshroud Elite
4x Watchwolf
2x Goblin Legionairre
2x Anurid Brushhopper
4x Swords to PlowShares
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lighting Bolt
2x Cursed Scroll
2x Jitte
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
4x Taiga
3x Plateau
3x Savannah
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Forest
Sideboard
4x Pithing Needle
4x Pyroclasm
4x Vexing Shusher
3x Ancient Grudge
Here is a tournament report on what happened:
Round 1 - Mono-U Stiflenought
Game 1 - Turn 2 Stiflenought and I don't have Swords, its over fast.
Game 2 - He gets stuck on 1 land for 2 turns and dies on turn 6 after Forcing a Watchwolf and dropping 2 Trinket Mage.
Game 3 - I get double Ancient Grudge, and kill Nought, Nought, Vedalken Shackles and overrun with Brushhopper, Skyshroud Elite, and Shusher.
In this matchup Shusher is pretty good but Ancient Grudge is just > Stiflenought.
Round 2 - Suicide Black (Thor)
Game 1 - Very uneventful, Turn 1 Hippie gets Bolted after and single hit and we both draw lands but I draw Isamaru and Goblin Legionnaire but am held off by his single Mishra's Factory. Couple turns later I draw Lightning Helix for Factory and the game is over shortly after.
Game 2 - He Duresses getting Scroll (FUCK) but all he has in play is 1 Swamp and 2 Mishra's Factory and I combo him out this game after drawing Brushhopper to join my Jitte on the board.
Overall a very good matchup for Zoo, especially since he is playing maindeck Phyrexian Negator! Brushhopper won this matchup, his evasive ability came into play here.
Round 3 - Goyf Sligh
Game 1 - This was a slaughter, I swords his Goyf and drop tons of threats. Eventually he runs out of burn spells and has only 2 Forests in play after Fireblasting my lone Watchwolf. I have Helix and Bolt in hand and he is at 5.
Game 2 - He draws double Goyf and so do I. Swords to Plowshares fucking owns this matchup. He manages to 2 for 1 my Goyfs but I have a Skyshroud Elite and Watchwolf in play with Jitte, 2 turns later thats it.
Against Goyf Sligh it is good to hold back excess lands and fetch basics, i only took 4 damage from Price of Progress both games. Also, Lightning Helix is a nightmare card for this deck.
Round 4 - UGw Thresh-variant-thing
I was already in the top 8 because it was 4 rounds cut to top 8, so I was guarnteed a slot and instead of being smart and drawing so we can go scout what everyone else is playing he decides he wants to play. Since one of my buddies was playing against Landstill I figured Iwouldn't be able to play type 4 for a while so I decide to play instead of giving him the win.
Game 1 - I have a disgusting draw and overwhelm him with threats.
Game 2 - He draws 3 Goyfs and I draw Swords and lands, I lose quickly after counters. It should be noted that I didn't care about this matchup nor did I try hard to win, I just wanted to see how I should sideboard, I kept a 5 land 2 spell hand!
Game 3 - Good game, he draws his entire deck almost and I draw a lot of lands. It was very close but Vedalken Shackles won it for him. Ancient Grudge was certainly MVP here as well. And Brushhopper was amazing, his evasive ability factored in here as well.
Top 8
Quarterfinals - Mono-U Merfolk with Back to Basics in SB
Game 1 - Killed on turn 7 after being barraged with my 2/3 and 3/3 army while dropping a creature and blocking every turn.
Game 2 - I make a HUGE play error. I went for the win, I had a crazy aggressive hand and I only needed him to not play Back to basics on turn 4, by how aggressive his hand was curving out I assumed he didn't have it. I fetched out a Plateau instead of a mountain so as I would be able to unload my whole hand on the next turn and tapped out. Sure enough, Back to Basics comes down and I have a basic Forest in play, the game is over shortly afterward.
Game 3 - This is a slaughter, Pyroclasm fucking owns Merfolk in every way. I fetch basics and slow myself a bit but I have 1x of each basic in play by turn 5 and he is dead by turn 7 from Watchwolf, Goyf, and Kird Ape after Pyroclasm wiped his board.
We do a top 4 split but my opponent and I decide to play just for fun. He was playing Mono-U Wizard Stiflenought.dec.
Game 1 - Killed on turn 5 after dropping a blocker and Forcing a creature. Zoo is pretty sick.
Game 2 - Very anti-climactic, turn 2 Stiflenought gets Grudged but I SB wrong by putting in Pyroclasm, I overestimated the # of creatures he runs and drew 3 Pyroclasm. Bad times.
Game 3 - He missed 2 land drops and dies on turn 5 to a massive army of duded.
Overall I am very impressed with this build. I kept on looking at Skyshroud Elite everytime I drew it and was trying to figure out if it would be better as Wild Nacatl or as Figure of Destiny. Kird Ape is to good to cut for Figure of Destiny so the Elite is IMOP the only creature worth removing from my list. Everytime I cast it it would have been 100 times better had it been Wild Nacatl. I was somewhat reserved about this card but now I am convinced it deserves a slot. Even against Wasteland it is still spectacular. I would run Figure of Destiny over this card except for 1 reason, when you drop Nacatl turn 1, it blocks Lackey and lives and thus gives you a serious tempo swing. This deck has a pretty damn good mid-late game but Nacatyl improves the early-mid ALOT and Figure of Destiny only rocks in the mid-late game and is very mana intensive.
Woolly Thoctor, I am pumped about this card, and it is going in Zoo. Because it is the quintessential idea of the deck, massive threat, undercosted. But after utilizing Brushhopper last night and seeing how good it can be I really have my reservations about cutting it.
I see no reason this deck can't have it's cake and eat it too... from reading the previous posts there seems to be an issue as to why this deck should be played over goyf sligh which has Price of Progress as a finisher... Well then, why not combine the two?
Creatures (20)
4 Kird Ape
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
Removal (16)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Magma Jet
4 Swords to Plowshares
Other (4)
2 Sylvan Library
2 Rancor
Mana (20)
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
SB (15)
4 Price of Progress
4 Krosan Grip
3 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Rancor
3 Honorable Passage
Seems like a nice starting point in merging key aspects of both decks... granted Zoo has less direct damage at it's disposal but gains stp and then can side them out in place of PoPs.
Alright, I see no one is going to agree on the right creatures in Zoo, we will agree on Goyf, Kird Ape, Wild Nacatl and thats it. To those who play this deck and don't run Swords, test it out, I promise it is good and if you choose not to play it don't talk about the deck not being good. Shards teleports this deck into just insane territories. Just as I thought Figure of Destiny had to be in the deck, we get something better, the Nacatl. Figure of Destiny does not suck in this deck but Watchwolf is infinitely better. Watchwolf is good in the early, middle, and late game (and amazing against Goyf Sligh). Figure of Destiny is to mana intensive to be good early on, decent-good mid game, and rocks in the late. Since Zoo actually does have a late game this card may be a 2x of. But since he sucks so bad against Goblins in the early game while on the draw, I doubt he is worth it. A deck that wants to tap out every turn dropping insane threats (except when playing against Daze) doesn't have time to worry about fucking around with pump abilities. This list is just insane and this deck is already tier 1 its just waiting for more people to pick it up:
Creatures (23)
3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kird Ape
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Watchwolf
2x Goblin Legionairre/Jotun Grunt/Figure of Destiny
2x Woolly Thoctar
Spells (16)
4x Swords to PlowShares (MVP #2)
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lighting Bolt
2x Cursed Scroll (MVP of the deck)
2x Jitte
Lands (21)
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
4x Taiga
3x Plateau
3x Savannah
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Forest
SB is all meta depentant but I like:
3x Ancient Grudge (>Stiflenought)
4x Needle (has to be here EE, Belcher, Maze of Ith, Seismic Assault etc.)
4x Shusher (needs no explanation)
4x Pyroclasm (owns any tribal deck that is played)
The reason for no enchantment destruction is simple, there are no enchantments this deck really needs to destroy that are actually played in Legacy. Enchantress is basically an autoloss with or without Naturalize and KGrip so no point is giving that matchup SB slots, just make the good-somewhat bad matchups even better. If people in your meta randomly play Moat in their decks then play enchantment removal, but if the matchup is already absymal, just leave it alone and make the less hideous matches better; unless of course if your meta consists of lots of Enchantress decks, in which case you should probably play Fetchland Tendrils or TES!!
Alix Hatfield and I sat down one evening at the game vault and came up with this:
Land
3 Taiga
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Plateau
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
Critters
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Natcatl
4 Woolly Thoctar
3 Skyshroud Elite
3 Watchwolf
Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Price of Progress
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte
Sb
As always this is meta dependant, but I think you have to run Gaddock Teeg or that new white guy, there isn't really a way to stop combo in this deck. Choke is also an MVP of mine.
That said I recently went 2-2 at a local tourney. All the big names running the big decks were there and testing for some big NY tourney. I felt that I should not have won any matches, being that I built my mana base in the car on the way up....
Match 1 Ichorid build with Greater Gargadon
2-1 Used Jitte to kill the Ichorids, my guys are bigger than his. Plowed the Greater Gargadons and I think there was a play error on his part which allowed me to catch myself and take over the board. Chaining your own Elite, then shooting your opponent for 3 while removing his bridges.
Match 2 B/U/g Eva green with stifle and FoW (Top 8 at said NY tourney)
2-1 Choke and Woolly Thoctar with Plow really slowed him down. Said he sided out the sinkholes cuz by the time he could start blowing up land, he needed to defend. Choke won me games 2 and 3.
Match 3 ANT
0-2 No Gaddock Teeg and didn't know what I was playing against. This was bad and I started to not have fun watching my opponent play spells while I was forced to keep track of his storm count. ugh Both games ended on turn 3.
Match 4 Survival
1-2 I don't remember, but I lost. His creatures were better than mine using shriekmaw and flametongue. Almost had him game 3 where he was at 2, but got me into a lock before I could pull a burn spell. He ended up with like 21 life.
If I actually got to play more often I would probally do better. All in all I went to have fun and with the exception of match 3 I had a good time.
Kird Ape, you are running 4x Thoctar and only 19 lands? If it works play it but there is no way I could reliably cast that card with only 19 lands in the deck. Also, test this build:
Creatures (22)
3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kird Ape
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Watchwolf
1x Jotun Grunt
2x Woolly Thoctar
Spells (17)
4x Swords to PlowShares (MVP #2)
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lighting Bolt
3x Cursed Scroll (MVP of the deck)
2x Jitte
Lands (21)
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
4x Taiga
3x Plateau
3x Savannah
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Forest
This is an updated version of my other Zoo list (2 different slots filled). This is IMOP the optimal list of Zoo. I suppose you could cut down the number of Savannahs to 2 and put another basic in but I always hate seeing basics and only fetch them when I know what I am playing against. I hate seeing the one Mountain in my deck in my starting hand with Nactyl and Goyf in there. 21 lands is the perfect number for this deck, it allow you to be resilient to a Wasteland or 2 as well as the occassional Sinkhole, which you absolutely will see. And the ability late game to activate Scroll and then cast something is huge.
No Lightning Helix is a savage mistake, the life gain alone will make the difference in the Goyf Sligh matchup.
Price of Progress is worthless in a deck that runs lots of creatures. It can't clear the way for attackers. I know the argument "well it deals like 6 damage on average" whatever. It is oftentimes useless and EVERY card in Zoo must do something all the time. When you drop Watchwolf he is a 3/3. Thoctar will always be a 5/4. Helix always deals 3 damage and gains 3 life. Price of Progress my work insanely well and oftentimes it will be totally dead. Every card you draw in Zoo will have an effect on the game. Move it to the board if you want to run it, but not in the main. Goyf Sligh runs it cause its basically a burn deck with 16 creatures. Zoo is all about creatures.
Cursed Scroll is a must in this deck. It is infinitely useful and simply wins games. This card makes the Goblins matchup almost a joke (which it is anyway) and in the late game when you start drawing into a few lands you will still be able to own Goblins or any other tribal aggro deck. It also breaks the inevitable Goyf Standoff and most of the time it makes it so when you swing into an opposing Goyf with your army the opposing Goyf will die almost regardless of who they block with active Scroll.
I like Horizon Canopy and it might be good as a 1-of but in the aggro mirror you will despise seeing it. In all the Goyf Slight matchups I played, I usually won because I was 2ish points out of burn range and forced them to kill my creatures (swing for lethal) instead of being Bolted and Blasted out. It will also suck against Affinity big time, especially in the opening hand. As a 1-of it should be fine but definitely not 3.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
I've always been a fan of 4x scepter 2x chant in GWR Zoo builds. It has the same infinite win as Cursed Scroll, but the added bonus of Scepter-Chant lock that no one expects from a aggro build.
Team ICBE - We're so good at playing Threshold, we don't even play it.
Team Keg Stand - If only the kegs weren't empty...
I had much success in the past when I played T1 with a zoo in an environment where nobody had power, they just used balance, tutor, mind twist, etc... I ran 4 scrolls with 4 moxes (RGW & Diamond) and sol ring. I always found them to be extremely useful and they won me many games. This was before tarm and the new big asses came about. I do not question the effectiveness of scroll, I question if it can be activated consistantly. I also question the lone grunt especially with tarm. Threshold decks don't really beat you with threshold (it helps), they get you in a countertop lock. They control what you cast, their stuff is bigger than yours. There really isn't a way to find grunt if you need to make an opponent's tarm smaller or make mystic enforcer walk or keep them from delving for tombstalker. There is also a toss up between jitte and scroll. They are both mana intensive and having had played them both, I feel jitte is the stronger. I am not opposed to scroll and looking back at my last tournament experience, I don't think that scroll would have got the job done. My main concern is a chalice at one. It's a house as most of my deck is 1 cc. So, I sat down with your list and my own and came up with this:
Land
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Mountain
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
Critter
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Woolly Thoctar
3 Watchwolf
3 Skyshroud Elite (meta is dual crazy)
Spells
4 STP
4 Bolts
3 Lightning Helix
3 Jitte
2 Chain Lightning
2 Cursed Scroll
This is just an idea and I have not had a chance to properly test, but I feel that this is a hybrid of the 2 decks. I took out the PoP and 2 Chains for a Taiga, 2 scrolls, and 3 Helix. I think that Helix is very strong, but in my initial build, I went for the speed of chain over the 3 life bonus. Horizon canopy is very useful as it's a brushland early game and trades for a drawn card mid to late game. I suppose I could run more duals, but magnus and PoP scare me. It is not often that I am sitting there with my thumb in my rear, so I decided 2 scrolls would be enough, partly because main deck there is no other way to get rid of an opponent's jitte. I think the addition of scroll also frees up some SB space which looked like this:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pyroclasm
2 Choke
3 Krosan's grip
2 Pithing Needle
Like previously mentioned Teeg or Ethersworn Canonist is a must for combo. I think Pyroclasm can come out, the goblin matchup looks favorable. Another Choke perhaps, I hate blue. It's all meta dependant...
Very true, SB is all meta dependent but all of the Thresh-ish decks in my meta run Vedalken Shackles so I play Ancient Grudge (there is also a lot of Stiflenought and this card wrecks them) and it is also good against Dragon Stompy. I am not sure what is better against blue Choke or Vexing Shusher. Choke is very one-sided but in general they are not able to deal with it, unlike Vexing Shusher who is sent farming most of the time. However, Shusher makes the Dragon Stompy matchup easier if they get a Chalice @1 and/or @2.
The build that got me started on Zoo ran 2x Jotun Grunt that is why I am still running them. The card is fantastic as a 1-of, the fact that it may or may not shrink Goyf is very irrelevant because if both of those guys are in play you are going to win and Grunt gets in some serious damage or can create standoff where you are able to burn the opponent out.
I REALLY want to play the Canonist, that card fucks up combo a LOT better than Teeg does IMOP. It is easier to cast and it isn't legendary!!! I love this thing.
Now Pithing Needle needs to be at least a 3-of in any Zoo SB. Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed, Vedalken Shackles, and Maze of Ith just stop this deck cold. Especially EE since it is usually recurred by the Ruins.
This is just a personal choice, I never, EVER run Tormod's Crypt in any SB (usually because I play combo :) because 4x pieces of hate is not near good enough to stop Dredge. Crypt really sucks against everything besides Dredge and Lands!, most people think it is good against Aggro Loam and I can assure you it isn't. I used to run Aggro Loam all the time and never once cared about being Crypted, it stalls maybe a turn but generally has no effect.
But the important question at hand is what card is better against Landstill and Thresh: Vexing Shusher or Choke?
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Ok I've been goldfishing this deck a little bit and it is incredibly fast.
I've been wondering if Aether Vial has a place in this deck. It helps you get past Chalice and counters as well as speeding up the clock (which is arguably unecessary).
Wild Nacatl is amazing. It has to be in here.
Shouldn't Zoo be running Gaddock Teeg mainboard to have any shot at beating combo or fighting EE, Humility, Wrath, Snuff-out... and so on.
Co-Founder of Team Awesome - I heard Randy Buehler say a while back that good players give themselves the most number of turns to find the answer.
The Source on MTGO - Predator8785 and RockOut
@ jbmulder: Very true, this deck is sick fast. Someone in my meta (besides me) runs Zoo with Aether Vial and his list is good but Vial is sub-par and actually slows the deck down. If you wanted to run creatures like Serra Avenger you can run Aether Vial but neither are necessary. The reason I dislike Vial is that it is a dead draw after turn 2. You only need 1 vial out and when you opponent is at 3ish lift the last card you want to draw into (besides land) is Vial. There is just not enough tempo gained through Vial to merit its inclusion and genuine shittyness in the late game. Every card in this deck must have an immediate effect.
@ rockout: I totally forgot Teeg fucks with EE. Now I might be more concerned with getting some. Teeg is only SB material, running a bear in the main deck that mill have little-no effect most of the time will not be a good card to run. The same reasoning goes with Magus of the Moon, Zoo doesn't run cute things because they have an impact on the board, everything is about damage, and G/W for a 2/2 is gonna be shitty a lot of the time.
The Teeg argument does bring up a good question. I am really excited about the Canonist because it stops combo better than Teeg and it isn't legendary and allows you to run 4. I suppose you could run 4x Teeg but that just seems terrible. Isamaru is a phenomenal creature and no one ever runs more than 3, thats usually the same with Jitte so ... 3x Teeg. I am still trying to figure out a perfect SB for this deck and I think Teeg goes there over Canonist contrary to my last post, EE and Snuff Out are fucking annoying and then theres that cute effect of no WoG of Force ever again! Maybe something like:
3x Pyroclasm
4x Pithing Needle
3x Ancient Grudge
2/3x Choke
2/3x Vexing Shusher
The only card that truly has to be in the SB is Pithing Needle and everything else is meta dependent but since I really like Choke and Shusher why not run a 2/3 split of them. Probably 3x Choke since it just hoses Landstill.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
The basics are in Mark's list so that the deck can support Price of Progress. That card is literally the only reason to even consider playing RG Aggro (Goyf Sligh) over RGW Aggro (Zoo), so we figured it'd be worth it to make it work in the otherwise superior deck.
Two-mana Lightning Bolts are actually pretty weak. Yes, the lifegain is relevant against Goyf Sligh, but that hardly justifies the card.No Lightning Helix is a savage mistake, the life gain alone will make the difference in the Goyf Sligh matchup.
This paragraph is absolute nonsense. Price of Progress is an extremely powerful spell in any aggressive strategy. It may not be correct to play the card in this deck, but you need to explain your reasoning, not spout useless maxims like "Zoo is all about creatures."Price of Progress is worthless in a deck that runs lots of creatures. It can't clear the way for attackers. I know the argument "well it deals like 6 damage on average" whatever. It is oftentimes useless and EVERY card in Zoo must do something all the time. When you drop Watchwolf he is a 3/3. Thoctar will always be a 5/4. Helix always deals 3 damage and gains 3 life. Price of Progress my work insanely well and oftentimes it will be totally dead. Every card you draw in Zoo will have an effect on the game. Move it to the board if you want to run it, but not in the main. Goyf Sligh runs it cause its basically a burn deck with 16 creatures. Zoo is all about creatures.
I played a playset of Cursed Scrolls in the first constructed-format Magic tournament I ever participated in, and in many, many tournaments after that. However, I eventually had to set them aside for better cards. I don't think there is any way you can rationalize playing Cursed Scroll in modern Zoo, as the card requires much too great a mana investment for too small of an effect. Four mana to deal two damage? Seven mana to deal four? Honestly, it'd be too weak even if it weren't conditional on you emptying your hand to make it work.Cursed Scroll is a must in this deck. It is infinitely useful and simply wins games. This card makes the Goblins matchup almost a joke (which it is anyway) and in the late game when you start drawing into a few lands you will still be able to own Goblins or any other tribal aggro deck. It also breaks the inevitable Goyf Standoff and most of the time it makes it so when you swing into an opposing Goyf with your army the opposing Goyf will die almost regardless of who they block with active Scroll.
Horizon Canopy is amazing for Zoo because it helps turn excess land into business spells. One of the major problems with the archetype is that it suffers from manaflood as a game progresses. This is because it has to have enough lands to consistently curve out in the first three turns (this is even more important with the printing of Woolly Thoctar), but cannot afford to offset this with lands that have abilities other than tapping for mana (things like Wasteland, Mishra's Factory, and even Barbarian Ring). Thus, in every game, a full third of your library becomes virtually blank as soon as you draw your third land.I like Horizon Canopy and it might be good as a 1-of but in the aggro mirror you will despise seeing it. In all the Goyf Slight matchups I played, I usually won because I was 2ish points out of burn range and forced them to kill my creatures (swing for lethal) instead of being Bolted and Blasted out. It will also suck against Affinity big time, especially in the opening hand. As a 1-of it should be fine but definitely not 3.
Horizon Canopy easily slots into a RGW manabase without negatively affecting your ability to access all three colors of mana. The benefit is that when you draw your fourth land in a game, if any of those lands are Horizon Canopies, what was a blank draw instead becomes a new draw (and one that will probably be a non-land card). This makes a huge difference in close games, since trading a land for a burn spell or an extra creature is just like drawing an extra card right when you need it.
The life you lose to Canopy is the only cost associated with playing it, and is very rarely problematic. Zoo is one of the most aggressive decks in the format, so few decks are capable of profitably applying pressure to its life total.
As far as I know, the only reason Mark's first list has three Canopies is because the card looks ugly next to Price of Progress. I do agree that 19 lands is too few, though, so I'd probably find room for the fourth Canopy, regardless.
Lightning Helix is removal and life gain and laughs at Chalice @ 1. Not only the Goyf Sligh matchup is helped but it is fantastic against Goblins, Berserk Stompy, and Burn as well. IMOP it would be a mistake not to run it. Test it out, and if you don't like it don't run it, but don't just dismiss the best burn spell in the deck. Everyone I know who ran it in extended and the guy who plays Zoo in my meta loves the card. You are the only person who seems to dislike the card in the deck.
I thought my paragraph was phrased quite nicely. I have played Burn in the past and Price of Progress is situational. If your meta is filled with shit loads of non-basics, well, I would run Lightning Helix, but a case would be made for PoP (meta all Landstill??). Price of Progress is a finisher and it fills that role fine but it does nothing about board position. When you reach a stalemate with creatures (which will happen against WW or Eva Green/Suicide) it will be a lot better to have a burn spell for combat tricks and removal rather than deal 4-6 damage to the opponent then die to a flyer you can't deal with. Plus there are quite a few mono-colored decks in my meta so I certainly would not run PoP.
The arguments on Horizon Canopy and Cursed Scroll can be clumped together. Late game I would like extra mana to activate Scroll and attack with dudes and you want to draw cards and attack with an extra dude. I run Scroll because it is literally GG against Goblins once it resolves and because it is beautiful to have a permanent source of damage if the opponent has survived the initial onslaught. If you are having problems emptying your hand with a deck that plays 20+ one drops then it is bad times. I also play 21 lands. Cursed Scroll is phenomenal in this deck but it comes down to personal preference. Also, you reasoning for playing Canopy was to avoid excess land drawn, another great reason to run Scroll but it comes down to playstyle and neither strategy is superior, both are effective.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Price of Progress pushes board position. It's not only a finisher, as it can catch an opponent off guard and suddenly make every subsequent spell you cast twice as threatening, since they no longer will have that extra 4-8 life to sit back and let your 2-power guys swing in. It may not kill blockers that are on the board, but it forces your opponent to waste answers and do it earlier than they may like to keep the one or two creatures that cannot be blocked from becoming lethal.
Also, since when does a metagame have to be filled with Landstill to see a ton of non-basics? Rock and it's ilk, ITF, Landstill, MSPaint, Goblins, Thresh/Thrash, Aggro Loam, 43land.dec, etc, etc.... Everything this side of Goyf Sligh and MUC run 4-8+ nonbasics. I fail to see how a metagame, even loaded with people trying to port Type 2 and Extended decks into legacy or random aggro decks is going to fail to have Price doign at least 4-6 if not more to the opponent.
The assumption that Price is only good in a Landstill filled meta, let alone that it does nothing to press board position, is rather weak.
Team Albany: What's Legacy?
You cannot know the sweetness of Victory, without first dwelling in the agony of Defeat.
@ Sims: Ok, this is a pointless debate. I have said my reasoning, everyone has said theirs. I think PoP is shit in the deck and my logic isn't flawed or "weak", it comes from experience with PoP, I don't like the card and don't feel it is right for the deck because it won't always deal damage to an opponent and never damages creatures. If you actually read my post, the Landstill comment was sarcasm, sorry you missed it. Speaking of weak assumptions, you are assuming PoP will always deal 4-6 damage, which it won't. Someone who runs Goyf Sligh every week in my meta sides then out at least once each tournament (mono colors for the win). Who cares, run it in the place of Lightning Helix if you want.
On to cards that actually matter. No one has commented on Choke. Does it deserve a SB slot? Should both Vexing Shusher and Gaddock Teeg be run in SB?
How many lands should be required to run 4x Woolly Thoctar?
Has anyone tested out Figure of Destiny? To slow or is it good?
Does Jotun Grunt belong in the deck? Obvious dissynergies with Goyf but will the opponent live long enough for those to matter? Should Grunt be in the SB?
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote