[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

[Omega]

IF he attempts a turn 3-4 combo (with 3-4 lands)
just counter his high tide. You can always take the risk of letting him start his combo before countering him, but this is a bad idea, especially if he has a very good hand.

If he attempts a combo with 5,6 + lands, you have to counter key spells such as meditate and sometimes REset/turnabout. There is no point in countering High tide wen he has so many lands. You just have to see how many cards he has in hand, how many mana is floating.
Small cantrip, such as brainstorm, impulse and other should never be countered. Unless if he has 0 card in hand.

Stifle : Stifle every fetchlands you can to slow him down or to shut him off (especially if he has a bad hand). Usually, when he comboes out, there are no way you can stop him with a single stifle. Do not hesitate to play agressive. You have to put solidarity on clock, or else he will just wait and have the perfect hand and perfect lands to beat you

[BKclassic]

Has anyone tried out Negate in Dreadstill? One of the things that has always bothered me is that unless you have Counterbalance down, you have to Force of Will cards like Snuff Out and Swords to Plowshares, which really hurts when you have to 2 for 1 yourself just to get Dreadnought into play. I was thinking I would play it either in the Spell Snare/Krosan Grip slot or (more likely) put it in the sideboard REB slot. I think this would be especially good in builds with Spell Snare so that against Landstill and ITF you have Spell Snare as a 1 casting cost answer to Counterbalance, Counterspell or possibly Standstill and Negate to answer removal. I think it would also be great to have 3 extra answers in the board to Orim's Chant for the combo match.

I would than probably cut red from the deck for a more solid mana base which would in theory compensate a bit for the lack of Firespout against Aggro.

So I am going to test this on MWS and get back to y'all.

[TheRock]

Also, this is still a DTW? I suppose it is irrelevant but why is that not enough people have 3/4 'noughts?

The main reason that I haven't REALLY started to test this puppy out is because the current manabases only have 14 sources of blue and about 8 sources of the second color. My initial testing revealed that the manabase wasn't holding up enough, and resolving early Counterbalances was a real pain. Is going up to 22 lands going to work very well?

Currently I only have one Nought, but I shouldn't have too many problems acquiring a few more. I think I'm going to go the white route to start and then just try to learn my way from there by reading through the posts here and just testing online during the weekends. Is 2 Tops the standard number for that color?

[BKclassic]

The main reason that I haven't REALLY started to test this puppy out is because the current manabases only have 14 sources of blue and about 8 sources of the second color. My initial testing revealed that the manabase wasn't holding up enough, and resolving early Counterbalances was a real pain. Is going up to 22 lands going to work very well?

Currently I only have one Nought, but I shouldn't have too many problems acquiring a few more. I think I'm going to go the white route to start and then just try to learn my way from there by reading through the posts here and just testing online during the weekends. Is 2 Tops the standard number for that color?

Hmm, I think that early is the easiest time to resolve Counterbalance because you can fight it through with Daze (You are running 3-4, right?). Also, I play 3 colors with 21 lands and only have to mull to 6 occasionally in real life, but 22 lands should be fine if this isn't working out for you.

2 Tops is standard for any list with Trinket Mage, which is pretty standard.

[Xero_2285]

Has anyone tried out Negate in Dreadstill?

No I haven't tried it but, wouldn't Mana Leak or even Rune Snag be better, so you can hit creatures as well?

[BKclassic]

No I haven't tried it but, wouldn't Mana Leak or even Rune Snag be better, so you can hit creatures as well?

Creatures aren't really a problem because none of them are bigger than Dreadnought. Even better than countering their creatures, just countering the spells that try to remove Dreadnought is right in line with decks game plan of playing Dreadnought. I suppose Dark Confidant and to a much lesser extent Argothian Echantress are exceptions to this idea, but that is why I run Spell Snare. Honestly, this is the most plausible way to deal with Tombstalker that I have thought of so far, other than dedicating SB slots to Wallop, which seems ridiculous.

Also, if there is one area of this deck that I feel needs attention, its in the late game, particularly when you have played an early Standstill and have been sitting under it for awhile. If you can't get Counterbalance down, its going to be nigh impossible to get Dreadnought to stick, since you pretty much have to Force of Will everything.

[Xero_2285]

Creatures aren't really a problem because none of them are bigger than Dreadnought. Even better than countering their creatures, just countering the spells that try to remove Dreadnought is right in line with decks game plan of playing Dreadnought.

True but, I guess what I should have said was, aren't you hindering yourself limiting what you can counter with a noncreature counterspell? Sure you want to hit their targeting threats which Mana Leak and Rune Snag do while at the same time leaving it to where you can counter creatures as well for the same CMC as negate. I agree with what your saying but I don't think Negate is the best option for what your trying to do.

[The_Red_Panda]

Creatures aren't really a problem because none of them are bigger than Dreadnought. Even better than countering their creatures, just countering the spells that try to remove Dreadnought is right in line with decks game plan of playing Dreadnought.

This is not always true. While the dreadnought is huge, and often wins creature wars on it's own, it does not guarantee wins all by itself. There have been multiple times in tournament play where I was staring down an aggro horde, and due to my already damaged lifetotal, the dreadnought alone wasn't going to win it. In these cases, or in cases where the dreadnought will barely squeak out the damage race win, it's important to be able to counter creatures.

Also, if there is one area of this deck that I feel needs attention, its in the late game, particularly when you have played an early Standstill and have been sitting under it for awhile. If you can't get Counterbalance down, its going to be nigh impossible to get Dreadnought to stick, since you pretty much have to Force of Will everything.

I have found the opposite. After drawing a boatload of cards off of multiple standstill turns and the standstill itself, Resolving Dreadnought and protecting it for one turn really hasn't been that bad for me. The entire dreadnought combo costs a measly 2 mana, and with the leftovers I've been able to hardcast Forces and so on to keep the 'Nought on the table. Also, in these cases it often comes up that I'm able to resolve nought and a tarmo, or a pair of tarmos, and they can only deal with one.

This isn't to say that I like going lategame against Landstill&crew, but I don't mind hitting the later turns against aggro at all.


I so want to test wallop right now. No joke.

[kiwi]

If you have 2 trinket mages in main ad 4 Tormods Crypt in the side board , How many tormods crypts will you sideboard againts aggro loam ?

[BKclassic]

This isn't to say that I like going lategame against Landstill&crew, but I don't mind hitting the later turns against aggro at all.

This is pretty much my point. I think that the late game (actually pretty much the whole game) against Aggro is great, its pretty easy to keep a Naught or a Goyf down without to much problem and more counters for them aren't needed. The problem I have is more against WUG Thresh or Team America and slow control decks where they can play Swords or Snuff Out and than match your Force of Will with one of there own and possibly a Counterspell or preempt your counter with Thoughtseize.

@Kiwi: 2.

Edit- I feel like I should point out that if I put Negate in the SB, it would replace Daze in Games 2-3 or Spell Snare in match ups where it does little (Stompy/Stax). If I were to MD it, it would go in the same slot many have devoted to Krosan Grip.

[Rood]

If you have 2 trinket mages in main ad 4 Tormods Crypt in the side board , How many tormods crypts will you sideboard againts aggro loam ?

Only board in two, it's not always going to be TOO helpful but it should hurt them a bit (Goyf and Crusher don't care about it sadly).

@Negate: It's okay but mainly moreso against Landstill and ITF would it be REALLy good. It's possible to be better then Red Blast in those matchups for sure...as well as any MUC-based decks. I will replace REBs with Negates in the board and see how it fairs for me =).

[frogboy]

It's possible to be better then Red Blast in those matchups for sure...as well as any MUC-based decks. I will replace REBs with Negates in the board and see how it fairs for me =).

Counterbalance?

[Enigma]

It's hard to destroy a Counterbalance with a 1cc spell...

@Negate: I find it could actually be better than REB most of the time... Mmh, gotta try it.

EDIT: The only MU REB is better than Negate would probably be CounterSlivers and Epic Painter. The MU Negate is better than REB: Landstill, ITF and ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (do I really side REB against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh?).

EDIT#2: Pretty sure I like and will adopt it in the REB spot.

EDIT#3: I was testing it against myself and just kept my REB as "false Negate" and was thinking its cc was 1... but just realized it was 2cc so I doubt again... lol

PM

[Xero_2285]

This is pretty much my point. I think that the late game (actually pretty much the whole game) against Aggro is great, its pretty easy to keep a Naught or a Goyf down without to much problem and more counters for them aren't needed. The problem I have is more against WUG Thresh or Team America and slow control decks where they can play Swords or Snuff Out and than match your Force of Will with one of there own and possibly a Counterspell or preempt your counter with Thoughtseize.

@Kiwi: 2.

Edit- I feel like I should point out that if I put Negate in the SB, it would replace Daze in Games 2-3 or Spell Snare in match ups where it does little (Stompy/Stax). If I were to MD it, it would go in the same slot many have devoted to Krosan Grip.

OK, but I really don't feel like you have justified as of to why Negate is better than Mana Leak or Rune Snag. Both have the same CMC but Leak and Snag can counter both Creature AND Non-Creature spells. All 3 being the same CMC you have more options with Leak and Snag than you do with Negate. I don't see anyone SB'ing Tormod's Crypt for a Rune Snag and having 3 mana open to shit towards Mana Leak is very hard for some decks and if they do they probably can't play anything else that turn (which is alright for me), because if the payed the 3 they sure as hell can't pay 1 for Daze. Leak or Snag gives you more options rather than just non-creature spells for same CMC. I'm seriously wondering, how is Negate better than Mana Leak or Rune Snag?

I just placed 2nd out of 7 under ANT and above MonoRedBurn with the following list.

Creatures: (10)
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Trinket Mage

Spells: (30)
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
3x Spell Snare
4x Stifle
2x Trickbind
3x Counterbalance
4x Standstill
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Engineered Explosives

Lands: (20)
4x Mishra's Factory
5x Island
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
2x Wasteland
1x Tropical Island
1x Volcanic Island

SB: (15)
3x Blue Elemental Blast
3x Pyroblast
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Pyroclasm
2x Krosan Grip
1x Pithing Needle
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Chill


Round 1: Solidarity, Game 1: 2nd turn Nought/Stifle, 3rd turn Nought/Trickbind, he scooped.
Game 2: Was a little longer. I countered some early key spells that didn't allow him to start searching and he fell to a Nought and Goyf.

Round 2: Chord of Calling Deck, Game 1: He started with little beaters and I resolved Counter/Top 2nd turn, he was done after that. Drew into Nought/Stifle and he scooped.
Game 2: Was even shorter, he mulled to 5 and I resolved Nought/Stifle 2nd turn, he scooped.

Round 3: ANT, Game 1: 2nd turn Nought/Stifle, he scooped before my 4th turn.
Game 2: I resolved Goyf on 2nd and he went off his 3rd turn I believe.
Game 3: Again I resolved Goyf 2nd turn (wich I think was my downfall against this deck) and was unable to counter anything after triple duress and he went off on 4th.

So over all 5-2 or 2-1. Not bad for what I was playing against. I really liked the extra Delta in came in handy more than the 3rd Wasteland and 20 lands worked out great. Thoughts?

[URABAHN]

So over all 5-2 or 2-1. Not bad for what I was playing against. I really liked the extra Delta in came in handy more than the 3rd Wasteland and 20 lands worked out great. Thoughts?

I think you should play more with the deck before you make anymore changes. Keep it intact, run with it a few more tournaments and see how you feel then. I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from a small event with 7 people.

[J.V.]

Round 3: ANT, Game 1: 2nd turn Nought/Stifle, he scooped before my 4th turn.
Game 2: I resolved Goyf on 2nd and he went off his 3rd turn I believe.
Game 3: Again I resolved Goyf 2nd turn (wich I think was my downfall against this deck) and was unable to counter anything after triple duress and he went off on 4th.

Go to see you finally got over to the Source Xero, anyways, basically you hit the nail on the head with your flaw here, just establish control against Storm, wincon is the last thing you care about since once you establish the control game Storm has a really really hard time doing anything, you will usually be able to get there with a single Factory.

Also, any particular reason why you run Pyroclasm over Firespout when you have Green and Red?

[jazzykat]

My initial reaction is how do you get away with 1 green source and 4 goyfs main? I realize there are a million more things to worry about but the most frustrating part of playing UGr was having a goyf and a nought sit in my hand and not be able to cast either. This deck is amazing because of the manabase stability, Hell you can even run magus or blood moon if you want. IMO unless you are facing something that you can't beat then you should be playing the Ur list. If you are consistently having trouble against decks you regularly face and have concluded that you are playing the deck correctly (i.e. no mistakes, assuming correct role beatdown/control etc.) then I would go for more/different splashes. HOWEVER, I would select the splash that most increases your chance of winning vs. that certain deck instead of immediately putting goyfs MD and grips in the board. So if I wanted to hose AdNT I would be playing Urw with meddling magi and possibly chants.

[Xero_2285]

I think you should play more with the deck before you make anymore changes. Keep it intact, run with it a few more tournaments and see how you feel then. I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from a small event with 7 people.

Well I have been consistently Top 4ing in the last month or so now, I just haven't been sharing my rankings with others until I started to get a hang of the deck more. 4 weeks ago took 1st of 6, 3 weeks ago took 3rd of 21 I believe, 2 weeks ago took 4th of 7 with a Ur list, are just a few I can remember. I'm going to keep the deck just like it is for a while, I really like how it's starting to work out for me.

Go to see you finally got over to the Source Xero, anyways, basically you hit the nail on the head with your flaw here, just establish control against Storm, wincon is the last thing you care about since once you establish the control game Storm has a really really hard time doing anything, you will usually be able to get there with a single Factory.

Also, any particular reason why you run Pyroclasm over Firespout when you have Green and Red?

Thanks, good to be here. Is that you Valentine? This site seems to know a little more than most other sites. Damn Goyf, the turn I dropped the Goyf I had the option of dropping Top instead and drawing a FOW with it instead, would have been the better play but I really wanted to start beating his face.

Well the main reason is because I hate investing into standard so I don't have any but also the CMC is 2 which is just easier to play. I probably should pick up 2-3 of them though.

My initial reaction is how do you get away with 1 green source and 4 goyfs main? I realize there are a million more things to worry about but the most frustrating part of playing UGr was having a goyf and a nought sit in my hand and not be able to cast either. This deck is amazing because of the manabase stability, Hell you can even run magus or blood moon if you want. IMO unless you are facing something that you can't beat then you should be playing the Ur list. If you are consistently having trouble against decks you regularly face and have concluded that you are playing the deck correctly (i.e. no mistakes, assuming correct role beatdown/control etc.) then I would go for more/different splashes. HOWEVER, I would select the splash that most increases your chance of winning vs. that certain deck instead of immediately putting goyfs MD and grips in the board. So if I wanted to hose AdNT I would be playing Urw with meddling magi and possibly chants.

Fetch for the Tropical Island 2nd turn. The reason I'm only running 1 green and 1 red source is because I only have 1 of each (I'd be more than happy to trade someone for 1 of each). Which is also the reason I have 1x Crucible in the SB. If I come across Wasteland's and what not I'll have crucible to back me up until I can get my other duels. Didn't really like the Ur list I tried it out, it was consistent, land base was great, I just don't think it was for me. It may not look like it but a lot more thought was put into this build than just adding Goyf's and Grip in the SB. The only decks I've really lost against are Belcher 1-2, Countersliver 1-2, and with the Ur list Solidarity 1-2. So I'm not really having issues losing, I just think I made some wrong decisions against those decks (should have Stifled fetches but chose not to so I can drop Nought on 2nd, things like that).

[Rood]

The only decks I've really lost against are Belcher 1-2, Countersliver 1-2, and with the Ur list Solidarity 1-2.

Yep that's another weakness all the UGR Dreadstill players have to accept when playing Goyf...your combo MU weakens a bit since he's so dead against them almost always. Belcher should never beat you, with 6x Stifle effects, FoW, Dazes, CB/Top and needle from the board...not to mention BEBs/EEs. Countersliver can be tough you really have to know what to counter(Vial.) Solidarity is a horrendously lopsided matchup you should test it some more and see. The UR build I faced against Solid I think i'm some rediculous number like 25-0 on the deck in best 2/3s. But again, I don't have too much experience testing the Goyf build so I can't really say how much harder it is. Oh also a good key to beating Solid, let High Tide resolve don't bother wasting all your resources to counter it...just counter their untappers with Snares/Daze/Fow.

[Xero_2285]

Yep that's another weakness all the UGR Dreadstill players have to accept when playing Goyf...your combo MU weakens a bit since he's so dead against them almost always. Belcher should never beat you, with 6x Stifle effects, FoW, Dazes, CB/Top and needle from the board...not to mention BEBs/EEs. Countersliver can be tough you really have to know what to counter(Vial.) Solidarity is a horrendously lopsided matchup you should test it some more and see. The UR build I faced against Solid I think i'm some rediculous number like 25-0 on the deck in best 2/3s. But again, I don't have too much experience testing the Goyf build so I can't really say how much harder it is. Oh also a good key to beating Solid, let High Tide resolve don't bother wasting all your resources to counter it...just counter their untappers with Snares/Daze/Fow.

It's funny you say that about Solid, that's exactly what I did with the UGr list and stomped him 2-0. I was thinking, should I take it down to 3x Goyf MB and up my Wasteland 1? Not only because of these MU's but I think 4 might be too many, and with the added Delta I have no problems getting color screwed anymore so could I afford to have the extra Wasteland? I just hate seeing Factory and Wasteland in my opening hand with no U sources.