[Deck] Elf Glimpse Staff

[cletus]

Here's a hypothetical list built purely for speed.

12
9 Forest
3 Gaea's Cradle

30
4 Heritage Druid
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Regal Force
1 Eternal Witness

18
4 Land Grant
3 Crop Rotation
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact
2 Weird Harvest
1 Grapeshot

It has no disruption or silver bullets, just tries to combo out as soon as possible, ideally turn 2. Lotus Petal could fit in somewhere - that along with the Spirit Guides let you play the Regal Force with no mana floating, because instead of drawing more Forests you draw mana that can be played that turn to continue going off. Its just another line of play that opens up when you don't have as many lands.

[Wobbles The Goose]

Ok, but you could just have them discard it.

True, but I think the deck still wants some sort of win condition. Chanting them during the upkeep is the closest you get to a straight time walk, which is what you need to win. Discard is great before going off and pretty good after, but it doesn't seal the game.

You don't want to lose to a brainstorm putting pyroclasm on top of the deck after you've gone off.

All the thoughseizes in the world do not protect against that, only Grapeshot, Goblin Bombardment or Orim's Chant will. Probably in that order. It's kind of like Flame-kin zealot in ichorid. Do you need to have a zealot in the deck? No, not really, you can just pass the turn with a million zombies in play. But the ability to topdeck answers to such a swarm are so numerous that you can't rely on 4x Cabal Therapy to win the game for you.

@cletus
Is land grant better than a sac land? You are going to draw hands with land grant and a gaea's cradle that aren't going to have a first turn play. While it might untap nettle sentinels once while going off, additional copies are going to be just the same as lands. It also makes it a lot harder to play around force of will because you can't bait spells effectively. Also, sometimes it gets countered. Reducing the land count is great in theory, but much worse in practice

Vitalize vs Crop Rotation: First, I don't think the deck probably has room for either of these cards. Even minor disruption is too important. That said, Vitalize is going to do basically everything crop rotation does, and: if it gets countered you don't lose your cradle, you can block, and it allows for a bigger attack once you've payed for your pacts.

Lotus Petal: You can usually cast Regal force with little to no mana floating, because it's going to untap your nettles anyway.

That said, speed isn't the answer to everything. The vast majority of turn two kills are on the draw, giving you opponent plenty of time to play cards like chalice or counterbalance that you can't possibly beat with a pure speed build.

[DalkonCledwin]

Cursed Totem- Doesn't see considerable play, as it does little to any other deck. Bigger artifact problems are chalice for 1 or trinisphere. Builds have been running 0-3 Veridian Shamans maindeck to deal with these threats. If this is a big deal in your metagame, the inclusion of more veridian shaman in the SB is necessary, with the option of krosan grip or indrik stomphowler also being thrown around. Obviously, build the deck to your metagame, especially if you expect to see such specific hate cards.

In the Build of Red Death that I am working on, I fully intend to be running Cursed Totem, as it helps against Aluren, affinity (to a lesser extent), the flash-hulk variant that has recently popped up in my local meta... as well as this deck. Though I do agree, Viridian Shaman does appear to be the best answer to Cursed Totem. However by the time you manage to get a Cursed Totem destroyed, the damage may already have been done, as the deck that I run, (namely Red Death) could very easily have a Engineered Plague in play killing all of your other elves as well, or a second Cursed Totem. Also if this deck does take off, I seriously think it will see considerable more opposition in the form of hate cards such as Cursed Totem and Damping Matrix....

Engineered Plague- This is an interesting one. The first thing to realize is that this card has really fallen out of favor of late. Look at the lists running black that are top 8ing. They aren't running plague in the main or the side. That said, it's still at least a potential problem. Popular answers include krosan grip, stomphowler, or a lord (usually elvish champion or wilt-leaf liege) in the sideboard. Fortunately, no popular deck is running plague in the main anymore, so a main deck solution isn't that important. Your meta may vary.

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20927

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20564

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20271

just 3 suicide lists that did fairly well in the past 2 months, all of which ran differing amounts of Engineered Plague, but they ran them none the less. I realize Suicide may not be the "Most Popular" but it is still popular by any stretch of the imagination, and still features Engineered Plagues.

Stifle (assuming it is a storm version of the deck)- Two good responses to this are either witness grapeshot back into your hand or attack the next turn with all your elves. Even if they get a chance to survive, you've likely played out a lethal amount of elves to attack with the next turn, with plenty of blockers as well. Stifle's more likely to be pointed at Regal Force, which is a pain, but no worse then having it countered. Which leads me to:

Some form of counterspell countering the Glimpse of Nature or other enabler-
Ah counterspells, bane of combos existence. No easy answer to this. Some builds are running 4x thoughtseize 2x chant to protect themselves when going off, but more adventurous builds throw chance to the wind. The thing to remember is that you can often restart the combo at a moments notice, combo off through a single counterspell, or just start beating down with elves. Unlike, say, infernal tutor getting forced after you LED, you still have a game plan after you've played out your hand: attack with elves.

Fair enough...

Swords to plowshares, Lightning Bolt, Snuff Out, Mogg Fanatic- It's fairly hand dependent. Sometimes killing the right creature at the right time is brutal, sometimes it even wins the game with a pact. Sometimes there never was a right time to kill any given creature to really stop them from going off. Most of the time though, it's annoying more than anything. Most builds have 6-7 tutors in the deck, as well as a considerable amount of card drawing. The loss of a given creature isn't that bad. Maindecking Thoughtseize and Orim's chant really decrease the risks of this, but it's an issue for the deck. I don't think it's enough to make it not viable, and the deck isn't as reliant on a single creature (heritage druid) as it might seem. I personally don't like the chords of calling builds that focus on finding a devouring monster to win for this reason, but I don't think it throws the archtype out.

What about those builds that only run 1-of's their win condition (such as 1-of Predator Dragon) or whatever? What happens of that gets destroyed? I do see your point about Thoughtseize and Orim's Chant... and those are some very good cards to be running.

In general those "specific cards that totally obliterate your combo and quite nicely" are big problems. How much they impact the win percentages of a given matchup is too early to tell. There is no "standard decklist" yet, and no strong gauntlet data. But do give the deck a play, it's a lot of fun and it's hard to appreciate the complexity of the play decisions with out it.

I would love to give the deck a try. Unfortunately I am not particularly skilled with fast combo decks (Aggro / aggro-control are more my speed).

@Cathal83: Sorry about that. I realized you were asking a legit question, I just was still pissed about debating with people over the damn altered cards/copyright bullshit.
I was out of line, my bad. This is a new deck, so questions are gonna come pouring in, I have to be ready for that.

Understandable I suppose.

[Wobbles The Goose]

In the Build of Red Death that I am working on, I fully intend to be running Cursed Totem, as it helps against Aluren, affinity (to a lesser extent), the flash-hulk variant that has recently popped up in my local meta... as well as this deck.

If you're running red death, I would not be too concerned about this deck. It is almost certainly your easiest possible matchup, as you've got hymn, targeted creature removal, wastelands AND e plague out of the board. As I said way, way back on the first page "Decks like eva green, deadguy and red death are just horrible matchups. I seriously doubt that this deck can win those matchups without considerable luck." I mean, unless that "flash"-hulk list is particularly strong, there's gotta be a better sb card than cursed totem (Leyline of the void?).

In such an environment, maxing out on Wilt-leaf liege seems like the way to go, if you were really gung-ho on playing elves. Still, not a hospitable environment for the deck and it'd probably be better to bring another deck. So it goes.

[Sims]

Also if this deck does take off, I seriously think it will see considerable more opposition in the form of hate cards such as Cursed Totem and Damping Matrix....

I would seriously choke on my Pepsi if I started to see lists rolling in at deckcheck running Cursed Totem or Damping Matrix in any capacity. There are, I believe, much better hate cards to be running than the above. Totem will shut down the mana production en masse and bounce abilities of symbiote, but that leaves an army of elves that are still being played, perhaps even with Champions/lords in games 2 and 3. They may be underwhelming without their mana abilities to swarm the table but it's still a lot of dudes to contend with, thus I would think that the generic sweepers, plagues, and overall spot removal on key components would be more helpful than a card which is not useful in very many matchups. Granted, if your environment is chock full of Survival, Aluren, and things of the like that rely on their creature abilities then by all means, Totem it up.

Damping Matrix on the other hand, falls to a significantly worse problem. With matrix on the board I might not be able to activate a Symbiote, but all of the Druid and Ranger tricks are Mana Abilities (unless I am sorely mistaken?) and thus Matrix does nothing to them.

[DalkonCledwin]

there's gotta be a better sb card than cursed totem (Leyline of the void?).

Oh I run that as well :D

I would seriously choke on my Pepsi if I started to see lists rolling in at deckcheck running Cursed Totem or Damping Matrix in any capacity. There are, I believe, much better hate cards to be running than the above. Totem will shut down the mana production en masse and bounce abilities of symbiote, but that leaves an army of elves that are still being played, perhaps even with Champions/lords in games 2 and 3. They may be underwhelming without their mana abilities to swarm the table but it's still a lot of dudes to contend with, thus I would think that the generic sweepers, plagues, and overall spot removal on key components would be more helpful than a card which is not useful in very many matchups. Granted, if your environment is chock full of Survival, Aluren, and things of the like that rely on their creature abilities then by all means, Totem it up.

Damping Matrix on the other hand, falls to a significantly worse problem. With matrix on the board I might not be able to activate a Symbiote, but all of the Druid and Ranger tricks are Mana Abilities (unless I am sorely mistaken?) and thus Matrix does nothing to them.

You got me on the Damping Matrix, that does indeed not affect Mana abilities... However on the other hand, yes my local meta does run Aluren, and it has a deck that is essentially a slower version of Flash Hulk that utilizes Carrion Feeder and Mogg Fanatic as its primary path to victory. So actually having the Cursed Totem does seem to be a viable answer. Not to mention that there is an affinity deck in my meta and to a lesser extent Cursed Totem does shut down parts of the Affinity deck (namely the Ravager).

However might I ask, how you are playing more than one or two elves a turn if you can't use your elves activated abilities via the cursed totem?

[Sims]

Sometimes all it takes is one or two a turn. It'll be slow and small clock at first, but it will gain strength the longer the opponent gives it. Glimpsing before casting an elf or two will help locate shaman or a cradle, which significantly speeds up the deck even at a few critters a turn. Weird Harvest or Pact finds Shaman easily, which in turn, makes the Totem goes away, and then the deck will explode. Even if you are running Totem maindeck and it neuters my game 1, game 2 will likely see Champions and/or Wilt-Leaf Lieges brought in, making every creature cast a threat.

I see Totem as a significant speed bump, that will assuredly slow the deck down to a crawl, but not beat it single handed, nor would I expect to see it hardly ever as it seems much to narrow a hate card to see play outside of a few very specific metagames (mine not being one of them). In any case, even one to two critters a turn can stall and chump block long enough for a Cradle or Shaman to be found.

[kicks_422]

I've been goldfishing a Chord version a bit, with the Hivemasters as posted by Yesmilord. I changed it a bit -dropped one Forest and have these as Chord targets:

Regal Force
Predator Dragon
Flame-Kin Zealot
Indrik Stomphowler

It's been... Well, cool. I'll try out a Weird Harvest version next.

[Maveric78f]

Primal Command isn't the disruption card the deck has been searching for?

Predator dragon kill is simply awful. Flame-kin is OK. Regal Force is cool, Indrik WTF? Isn't viridian zealot stricly superior?

The best kill according to me is Kamahl (can be good to struggle against deed/pyroclasm effects too).

[Jaynel]

Indrik WTF? Isn't viridian zealot stricly superior?

Not against Engineered Plague on Elves. But then again, you won't be seeing many Engineered Plagues in game 1. If the sideboard isn't that tight, then I think Zealot should probably be in the maindeck and Indrik Stomphowler should be in the board.

[Maveric78f]

Grips/Primal Commands are in the board because your second worst enemy is humility. But 1 Indrik in the board can be cool I admit with all the tutors we play.

[yawg07]

Actually I've been testing a number of Thorn of Amethyst in the SB.
The card doesn't really hinder this deck very badly and it messes with the normal combo decks as well as a few others.

If you have a strong opener in a G/b list, turn 1 Thoughtseize, turn 2 Thorn ensures you'll have time to set up and win.
If you are playing Mono Green, you may even have the ESG to even drop it turn 1.

In one G/b game, I did just that, Turn 1 Thoughtseize (actually nabbed Chant, was happy), then Thorn on turn 2 vs. a TES player, it tripped him up for a few turns.
The TES player was no expert, of course, I mean this is MWS, but regardless of how good of a TES pilot you are, if you don't have mana, you don't win.
In those turns I drew some decent elves, then began to combo off on my turn.
Also, don't forget, if it really becomes a problem, you can remove it yourself with Shaman.

Just figured I put it out there, it's an option.

[Noman Peopled]

I think the key to a consistently disruptive post-board strategy is to run eight pieces between maindeck and sideboard. The space is limited; Amethyst barely touches Elves and does slow opponents down - however, it doesn't do so against t1 wins or - half the time - t2 wins (against combo, you're probably going first, though, so that might be not so relevant). That's not counting opposing disruption which is arguably suboptimal vs Elves, but what're they gonna board? Also, maybe they kept a mana heavy hand.
I'd prefer a card that relies a bit less on circumstances (despite having it brought up myself already).

Another question: in what matchups would Thorn be boarded in? If it's only combo, maybe we should consider more versatile options that could also be used against decks heavy on disruption.

(Oh, and if you have lots of Eva Green/Red Death in your meta, maybe Compost would be a good idea.)

[badjuju]

I think the key to a consistently disruptive post-board strategy is to run eight pieces between maindeck and sideboard. The space is limited; Amethyst barely touches Elves and does slow opponents down - however, it doesn't do so against t1 wins or - half the time - t2 wins (against combo, you're probably going first, though, so that might be not so relevant). That's not counting opposing disruption which is arguably suboptimal vs Elves, but what're they gonna board? Also, maybe they kept a mana heavy hand.
I'd prefer a card that relies a bit less on circumstances (despite having it brought up myself already).

Another question: in what matchups would Thorn be boarded in? If it's only combo, maybe we should consider more versatile options that could also be used against decks heavy on disruption.

(Oh, and if you have lots of Eva Green/Red Death in your meta, maybe Compost would be a good idea.)

I think faster combo is one of our worst enemies, therefore making Thorn amazingly good in those matchups. The artifact will slow them down enough for us to pull out a win.

As for Maveric's conclusion - the Dragon kill is far from "awful". It may be awful against the right decks, but it's also a blowout against the others. Indrik plays around plague. I think FKZ is fine. Regal Force is probably needed just for the gas. I dunno about Kamahl. Both Dragon and FKZ say: we win now, negating any problems versus Pyroclasm.

[Mordel]

Indrik stomphowler costs five mana and coincidentally most of your mana comes from elves...so that means you will have to wait a bit to deal with a plague. Chord be damned, just run grip, wickerbough elder or a lord.

[yawg07]

ELVES Tourney Report!
4 Rounds, 14 People, 4-1 then Top 2 split

Okay, we had a smaller turnout than usual, bah.
But the meta was packed with Ad Nauseam and Aggro Loam.
Haha, time to run the guantlet!

Here was the list I ran:

// Lands
13 Forest
2 Gaea's Cradle

// Creatures
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Heritage Druid
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Viridian Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Regal Force

// Spells
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Weird Harvest
1 Grapeshot

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Elvish Champion
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 3 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Caller of the Claw
SB: 1 Viridian Shaman
SB: 1 Fecundity


Round ONE
Opponent: Dragon Stompy

Game 1
He drops moon and makes my cradle usless, but my forests and mana elves have to do their thing.
He gets me down to lose on the next turn and I begin the combo with Glimpse and rip some good creatures and Pacts.
Combo out with Grapeshot.

Game 2 - Out 4x Elvish Visionary, In 2x Caller of the Claw, 1x Fecundity, 1x Viridian Shaman
He mulls, sighs, and opens with Needle on Symbiote. I play Llanowar and pass turn.
My hand is excellent ... Caller, Weird Harvest, Nettle Sentinel, Cradle, Heritage Druid, and that Llanowar + Forest
Even if he had the timely Pyrokinesis, Caller of the Claw would have saved my ass.
At any rate, he can't seem to find an artifact but gets dragon, too little to late, I combo out with Grapeshot.

R 1-0, G 2-0


Round TWO
Opponent: RG/b Aggro Loam

Games 1 & 2 I get totally raped out of existance with turn 1/2 Dev Dreams, didn't even have a chance.
Couldn't draw a land for 5+ turns after he Dreams either game.

R 1-1, G 2-2


Round THREE
Opponent: ANT

Game 1
He combos me out turn one, ouch lol

Game 2 - Out 3x Viridian Shaman, In 3x Thorn of Amethyst
Wow, good hand. Forest, Forest, ESG, Thorn, Nettle Sentinel, Birchlore, Summoner's Pact
Forest ESG Thorn, bam, game was over. He stumbled over that for a while while my elves attacked.
He resolves AN and is at 9, he needs good cards to win. Card #1? Ad Nauseam, Card 2? Tendrils. w00t!

Game 3 - Out 3x Visionary, In 3x Elvish Champion
NO WAY! Forest, ESG, Thorn, Nettle Sentinel, Nettle Sentinel, Elvish Champion, Weird Harvest
He opens with Land, Chrome for blue. I draw Forest and go turn one Thorn. This elicits a "So fucking gay!" from him.
I attack with the Sentinels once and get him at 16. He manages an Ad Nauseam, draws a bunch of stuff he cant play, then AN putting him at 5.
I draw a card, play a third land, and smash down Elvish Champion and swing for 6! :D

R 2-1, G 4-3

Round FOUR
Opponent: Sligh

Game 1
He burns key guys and such, so I never get to combo.
But I DO get to win with an ESG, a Shaman, and a Sentinel

Game 2 - Out 2x Viridian Shaman, 4x Elvish Visionary - In 3x Elvish Champion, 2x Caller of the Claw, 1x Fecundity
He starts it off burning as usual, but stalls out at 2 mountains and cannot Flamebreak.
He keeps the hordes down, as well as my life. I have to risk it and drop Callers at the end of his turn regardless of mass removal worry.
It pays off and I rip summoners pact into Elvish Champion for the 12 point win.

R 3-1, G 6-3

Top 4
Opponent: UG/w Thresh

Game 1
I open with Llanowar, he with Top.
I play Heritage Druid, then Cradle and Visionary, on his next turn he drops Meddling Mage and names Sentinel.
Blah, no biggie. Next turn I Glimpse and start a small chain to try and overwhelm with dudes. It pays off. I get about 5 more guys in play and 2 more glimpses in hand.
He takes a turn and does nothing of relevance. I cast Glimpse next turn, he FoWs, I cast the other. I start to go into the part-combo again, he scoops. Too many guys.

Game 2 - Out 4x Visionary, 2x Shaman, 1x Birchlore, 1x Symbiote - In 3x Choke, 3x Elvish Champion, 2x Krosan Grip
He opens with Tundra, Ponder. Gets agitated and passes turn.
I give a turn one Forest, Llanowar and pass. He Swords my Llanowar and passes, in an effort to slow me down.
Not an abysmal choice, I need a few more turns to draw more land. No matter, I keep playing guys, including TWO Elvish Champions.
Now he drops Explosives, but couldn't activate. Problem, because I land Choke, explosives never goes off. Game.

R 4-1, G 8-3

Top 2
Opponent: RG/b Aggro Loam

I offer split, he takes, I breathe sigh of relief.



There you have it! :D The deck is just so much fun and it works very well.
I had crazy luck in the combo game, but that's what you have to hope for.

[rufus]

ELVES Tourney Report!
...
Round TWO
Opponent: RG/b Aggro Loam

Games 1 & 2 I get totally raped out of existance with turn 1/2 Dev Dreams, didn't even have a chance.
Couldn't draw a land for 5+ turns after he Dreams either game.
...

Thanks for the report. I'm a bit surprised that Aggro Loam is such bad news for the deck. -4 Forest, +4 Chrome Mox seems like it would have helped here. How does it affect the deck's other matchups?

[yawg07]

Thanks for the report. I'm a bit surprised that Aggro Loam is such bad news for the deck. -4 Forest, +4 Chrome Mox seems like it would have helped here. How does it affect the deck's other matchups?

Honestly, you're probably right. Although, I'm not sure I'd run four.
I think a few Chromes may help this decks land destruction "problem".
If I can borrow some from someone on Friday, I'll give them a shot.

[Wobbles The Goose]

I dunno about Kamahl. Both Dragon and FKZ say: we win now, negating any problems versus Pyroclasm.

I don't see how Kamahl could possibly be better than mirror entity.

@ yawg07

One option is to run more land as well, either in the main deck or sideboard.

[kicks_422]

Yawg, has only been running one Grapeshot ever been a problem? I mean, when you need combo off, do you always find it?