An important notice about proxies

[Aggro_zombies]

What I don't understand is why they're going after someone making proxies of the Power Nine. If he was making proxies of widely played cards in Standard, it would be a "duh" action, but the P9 exists only on the secondary market. I'm 99.99% certain Wizards doesn't have a huge warehouse somewhere with cases of Alpha in it, waiting to be re-released. I suppose that the reason they're doing it is because they want to dissuade people from making proxies of Standard cards by applying blanket C&D orders. That's still kinda lame though, considering cards in Standard are easy to get and never cost $300+ per card.

Part of it probably has something to do with Hasbro riding Wizards' ass. I have the suspicion that a lot of the changes we've seen in the past year, especially mythic rares, have been forced on Wizards by Hasbro in order to milk more money out of the product. Since we're now in a recession, Hasbro (as a luxury item retailer) has to be feeling the pinch, so they're going to try tying up as many loose ends as possible by resorting to game gimmicks and suing potential revenue leechers.

It's only a matter of time before MWS becomes a copyright infringement!

EDIT: Oh, and Bardo, thanks for the clarification.

[Cabal-kun]

Since we're now in a recession, Hasbro (as a luxury item retailer) has to be feeling the pinch, so they're going to try tying up as many loose ends as possible by resorting to game gimmicks and suing potential revenue leechers.

Because every revenue leecher is sitting on hordes of cash.

[KillemallCFH]

It's only a matter of time before MWS becomes a copyright infringement!

I'm pretty sure it already is; they just haven't actively gone after the developers (probably because there isn't really any money involved).

[kicks_422]

Why does Wizards even care? It's not like they support (or even know) Vintage that much.

[Nihil Credo]

How long until they go after people using MWS, or things like that?

Or is that relatively safe...for the time being?

There's a couple of points worth noting here:

1) Although MWS's primary use is MtG, it is a generic CCG program, and in fact gets used plenty to play VS and WoW systems.
Detonator (the programmer) only sells the core program, which contains zero references to Wizards' products. He could keep selling the non-infringing program and leave the MtG Game Pack to p2p or, perhaps, no-profit "fair use" distribution, like with amateur proxies.

2) Detonator is Russian, and AFAIK lives there. Considering the insane amounts of piracy, hacking, spamming, bot networks, child porn, and other unpleasant stuff that the Russian Internet is notorious for, it might be complicated even for Hasbro to get his website shut down by law enforcement agents.

3) Let's take the absolute worst case scenario: Hasbro's ninjas kill Detonator as well as anyone who tries to host a MWSPlay server. Well, we'd lose the joys of playing randoms on mwsplay.com, but we'd retain our own copies of MWS and we could keep playing arranged matches with little trouble. And creating text spoilers for new sets is trivial.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

ELD - For what it's worth, I think what WOTC is trying to pull with you is bullshit. It's not like you're making serious money doing whatever you're doing. It's love for the game.

I would imagine the rub is that if you are giving away the proxies as prize support, you are using someone else's IP as promotion for an event that I assume you're making money off of.

[KillemallCFH]

I would imagine the rub is that if you are giving away the proxies as prize support, you are using someone else's IP as promotion for an event that I assume you're making money off of.

IIRC, they aren't given away as prizes - anyone who enters one of his tournaments gets one. (ELD can correct me if I'm wrong here.)

EDIT: Though I guess your point sill stands. Still, I think it is fairly obvious that ELD is not using this to make money, but to promote the game.

[Bryant Cook]

This is redonk. Good thing I already have my ELD Twister proxy!

[TrialByFire]

He used to give out the Original ELD proxies with your entry fee into the respective tournament. Now he gives out the custom proxy of the month that people vote on to just the Top 8 and one random door prize. So nine in all each month

[J.V.]

This is redonk. Good thing I already have my ELD Twister proxy!

Your Welcome.

But yeah the power nine and Imperial seal were given out to each person who attended ELD's first 10 tournaments. Since then he has made a special set 1/8 of different cards for top 8. (Mana Drain, Strategic Planning, Time Vault, etc) Also he makes a special ninth as a carpool doorprize and one of the original ten in foil as a preregistration door prize.

[hi-val]

The only issue is selling them. Trying to make a buck on someone else's IP is pretty dangerous. I'm surprised Therese Nielsen hasn't been contacted by DC Comics for her blatant and prolonged piracy of their images on her modified cards.

Giving away "mox jet" proxies isn't a problem, otherwise we'd be going after every 3rd grader who swaps pictures of Mickey Mouse and Calvin & Hobbes with their friends. It's selling someone else's IP that's the issue.



I did some research into ELD's situation when it first came up; there's a couple of civil procedure tactics you can use to make sure this is hard to litigate, but they're not worth going into right now. My general advice to people is that a cease & desist letter means legally nothing and it's a tactic that lawyers use to extort money out of people who are ignorant of what a C&D is.

[Bardo]

My general advice to people is that a cease & desist letter means legally nothing and it's a tactic that lawyers use to extort money out of people who are ignorant of what a C&D is.

Cease and desist orders (when issued by counsel, not by a court) are less "extortion," than "knock it the fuck off or we may get nasty" letters. It's true that you are not obliged to comply with the demand (at this point).

[ELD]

Dear Mr. Dupuis:

Thank you for your emails and telephone calls regarding this matter. I have now had a chance to speak with our client regarding your request for permission to make limited quantities of MAGIC: THE GATHERING® proxies to give away as door prizes at tournaments. Unfortunately, Wizards cannot allow this. As I stated previously, however, Wizards does not have a problem with you making proxies for your own personal use.

Thank you again for contacting us so promptly, removing the proxy images from the web, and for ceasing your distribution and sale of MAGIC: THE GATHERING® proxies. Based on the foregoing, Wizards considers the matter closed.

Sincerely yours,

Carin Reynolds

And so it ends. I had a great time making proxies for the Vintage Community. I will miss all the positive reactions and excitement the proxies created, but I will also no longer be spending so many hours making proxies each month. Thank you to everyone who was a part of this project.

[Swing4Five]

[TrialByFire]

Frown Town

[Bardo]

And so it ends. I had a great time making proxies for the Vintage Community. I will miss all the positive reactions and excitement the proxies created, but I will also no longer be spending so many hours making proxies each month. Thank you to everyone who was a part of this project.

After doing a search for "Carin Reynolds" and "Hasbro," she's outside counsel (Patterson Belknap Webb & Tyler LLP) for Hasbro on copyright infringement cases.

- http://mtgrares.blogspot.com/2007/12/hi-all.html
- http://riskwars.com/forums/viewtopic...st=0&sk=t&sd=a
- http://mtgrares.blogspot.com/2007/11...nd-desist.html

You are not the first to receive a c&d letter from Hasbro.

[ELD]

After doing a search for "Carin Reynolds" and "Hasbro," she's outside counsel (Patterson Belknap Webb & Tyler LLP) for Hasbro on copyright infringement cases.

- http://mtgrares.blogspot.com/2007/12/hi-all.html
- http://riskwars.com/forums/viewtopic...st=0&sk=t&sd=a
- http://mtgrares.blogspot.com/2007/11...nd-desist.html

You are not the first to receive a c&d letter from Hasbro.

No, of course not. Wizards just shut down that Magic Alter website too. I had no intentions of harming Wizards at all. They claim my actions are harming them. I have no issue stopping. Issues go deeper than people realize. For instance, the letter was sent to TMD, where I have posted for many years. The owners of TMD contacted me and were going to delete my account to remove this issue. I assured them Wizards would be happy with the resolution, and there was no need to delete my account. Had I ignored the C & D letter, the community would have lost far more that it would gain.

[Mantis]

Man seriously, that is some weird shit. I feel sorry for you ELD, I don't know you in person but know you from TMD and from what I can tell you are a standup guy. Keep us informed on this matter, good luck man!

[Bardo]

The owners of TMD contacted me and were going to delete my account to remove this issue.

TMD is owned by StarCityGames (Pete Hoefling), and I'm sure Pete doesn't need the hassle or the possibility of mucking up their relationship with the manufacturer of their products (Hasbro) over something like this. As for their claim that you're "harming" WOTC, I agree it sounds pretty absurd but it's just their claim and that's what courts are for (though, if this were go down that path, the matter would be settled outside of court).

Presumably, TMD inherits the SCG Site T&Cs, and they provide pretty broad account termination rights (or your "right to use"):

"Star City may terminate or suspend your right to use the Site at any time. Your right to use the Site shall terminate immediately and automatically if you should breach any of these Terms and Conditions. You agree that the following actions shall constitute a breach of these Terms and Conditions:

... 2. Using material that infringes on the intellectual property rights of others or on the privacy or publicity rights of others..."

Anyway, the whole thing sucks. Sorry to hear about it.

[georgjorge]

It might be argued that giving away much-wanted proxies as door prizes is helping Wizards more than harming them, by providing incentives to participate in tournaments (for which you need, you know, real Magic cards).