[Deck] Ichorid

[Dark_Cynic87]

With the right sideboarding, this include cutting LED in match 2, sideboarding is not a big matter, but i admit that slow verssion has its advantages in this point...

Which was my point when I said to go with the 15-land build, but then you said this...

I think that we are all agree that our best chance against storm is the LED derived speed.
I keep my oppinion that a 2 combo match round is pur best choice against storm combo.

Chalice @ 1 can really hurt them, and chalice @ 0 can be a deadly thing for them also as a lot of times they only get enough mana to cast AdN, and then rely on Moxen and petals for their go-off mana. They often can drop a land which helps, but not being able to play their bounce (if it's repeal/Chain of Vapor Chalice @ 1 screws them, and if it's Rushing River/Wipe Away, they can't get the mana for it).

It's a tough match, but you can goldfish as fast as them (even without LEDs, you lose what, half a turn?), just not as consistantly as them. Hope for luck?

Pce,

--DC

[GoldenCid]

Your quotes about me are time inversed. In your "first" i was reffering to general sideboarding and in your "second" to the storm matchup. However, i want to add that unmask would be halpful in that situation...

[Mayk0l]

I played Ichorid at the Dutch legacy championships (141 people) and came in at a shared 9th spot: I lost the last round (6-1; 6-2) to Meathooks. Too bad, because it's a solid matchup. Mulligans to 5-4 for the lose :(
Then again, I really didn't deserve to be top8 in the first place.

Anyway, I played the 'standard' list (dare I say 'standard' with all these 15-lands-no-LED-decks running rampant?):

4x Ichorid
4x Bridge from Below
4x Narcomoeba

4x Lion's Eye Diamond
2x Deep Analysis
4x Breakthrough
4x Putrid Imp

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Unmask

4x Golgari-Grave Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug

2x Dread Return
1x Eternal Witness
1x Flame-Kin Zealot

4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephalid Coliseum

Sideboard/
4x Pithing Needle
4x Chain of Vapor
4x Firestorm
2x Ray of Revelation
1x Unmask



Cabal Therapy was, by far, the most important and powerful card all day.

Second and third were Eternal Witness and Unmask. I feel the list as it is right now is very solid. Because of the meta slowly shifting towards comboish decks that don't rely on the graveyard anymore (read: Ad Nauseam) and Aggro-Controllish decks that feed on the combo (TA, Dreadstill), I saw no Leylines; and the Chains were useless all day (even in the games I sided them in).
Firestorm was solid, nailing me two games against Zoo decks.. Gaddock Teeg never saw it coming, poor guy.
Almost all games I lost were Mulls into Oblivion, with truly unkeepable hands (No dredgers + no draw, stuff like that).

To be perfectly honest, and to give credit where it's due, I have to admit that, but we have to keep in mind that I didn't run into TES or other AN decks, LED was underwhelming. It was completely useless post board against decks with Crypt/Relic when I couldn't get a Pithing Needle (or even worse; when they Krosan Gripped it). It has been great to me in the past, but it's forced me to mulligan too often for my taste. However, this is the first time LED wasn't 'the bomb'; and it's also the first time I didn't run into combo. Who's to say what's wise to learn from this observation?


Have people considered other sideboard cards than the ones we've always played? I feel like I could switch some things around and make room, but up to now I've not seen any cards worth considering. If we keep the combo MU out of consideration, what other MU's could this deck use SB cards?


EDIT: With 'other SB considerations' I mean cards that aren't Dread Return targets.

[kicks_422]

The 1cc evoke critters (Ingot Chewer and Wispmare) seem particularly strong against artifact/enchantment hate, especially so when those aren't grave hate since they give you Bridge tokens as well. You might want to give those a look.

[GoldenCid]

@Mayk0l: Congratulations!! It seems that careful study cut for unmask is useful right?? Did you miss the study or you never played with them?

[Hoojo]

If Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus are becoming the mainstays of graveyard hate, would something like Null Rod be worthy? You've stated that Lion's Eye Diamond isn't very useful post-board; siding them out for Null Rods would leave you in the clear. The only drawback I can see is the 2 mana they cost.

What cards are primarily targeted by Chain of Vapor? Leyline of the Void and Yixlid Jailer?

[Mayk0l]

@Mayk0l: Congratulations!! It seems that careful study cut for unmask is useful right?? Did you miss the study or you never played with them?

I used to play them in the distant past. They're decent in that they help dig for answers, so they're at their best in games two and three. But I've never felt the need to play them after I discovered the sheer bruteness of Unmask. Where Careful Study helps you dig for answers, Unmask takes the threat right out of their hand, can also function as a discard outlet, takes their permission spells, costs no mana and gives you a clear idea on how to play your hand by seeing theirs. Careful Study is better in smoothing out your draws and hand, and makes the deck more consistent, but Unmask provides the protection that we really need.

If Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus are becoming the mainstays of graveyard hate, would something like Null Rod be worthy? You've stated that Lion's Eye Diamond isn't very useful post-board; siding them out for Null Rods would leave you in the clear. The only drawback I can see is the 2 mana they cost.

I considered Null Rod for some time but the fact that it costs two makes it highly unreliable in a 12-land build. I can almost never play it when I want or need to.
Pithing Needle has the additional advantages of being able to come down turn one so you can start the dredges earlier, and it hits non-artifacts as well. While this is usually irrelevant, sometimes you Unmask/Therapy the opponent and realise Pithing Needle on Mogg Fanatic for example is more important than naming Crypt when his hand doesn't have one.

What cards are primarily targeted by Chain of Vapor? Leyline of the Void and Yixlid Jailer?

Really Leyline is the only true indication to side in Chain of Vapor. It's the only card you really have to get rid of in order to win (although I've won games through Leyline by hardcasting creatures). Yixlid Jailer isn't that impressive, I've at least never lost to it. Not only does Jailer give you the time to therapy it away, it also dies to Firestorm. I'd rather burn it than bounce it. I usually side in Chain of Vapor against any deck with black that might have Leyline, meaning I'll sometimes side it in for nothing when their hate turns out to be Crypt or Relic. I'll use Chain to force them to pop it in those cases.

[Hoojo]

I considered Null Rod for some time but the fact that it costs two makes it highly unreliable in a 12-land build. I can almost never play it when I want or need to.
Pithing Needle has the additional advantages of being able to come down turn one so you can start the dredges earlier, and it hits non-artifacts as well. While this is usually irrelevant, sometimes you Unmask/Therapy the opponent and realise Pithing Needle on Mogg Fanatic for example is more important than naming Crypt when his hand doesn't have one.

I was thinking Null Rod in addition to Pithing Needle, though the casting cost is still an issue. Nothing beats Chain of Vapor for early bounce it seems; with Leyline of the Void, it just may be a necessary evil.

[sunshine]

At present two mana is simply one too many. If you really want to give Null Rod a try I would suggest trying out Dakmor Slavage (or at least siding it in along with the rod).

[Mayk0l]

At present two mana is simply one too many. If you really want to give Null Rod a try I would suggest trying out Dakmor Slavage (or at least siding it in along with the rod).

Dakmor Salvage sucking horribly aside, dredging it into your hand won't work if you need it to get rid of Tormod's Crypt, they'll remove in response. This will almost always be the case since they'll side in four Crypts, but you'll never side in four Salvages, meaning you'll be digging for it to begin with. Sounds like a bad idea.

[GoldenCid]

Really Leyline is the only true indication to side in Chain of Vapor. It's the only card you really have to get rid of in order to win (although I've won games through Leyline by hardcasting creatures). Yixlid Jailer isn't that impressive, I've at least never lost to it. Not only does Jailer give you the time to therapy it away, it also dies to Firestorm. I'd rather burn it than bounce it. I usually side in Chain of Vapor against any deck with black that might have Leyline, meaning I'll sometimes side it in for nothing when their hate turns out to be Crypt or Relic. I'll use Chain to force them to pop it in those cases.

I think that this deck, in a general matter has an 8 cards forced sideboarding:
+4 Chain of vapor
+4 Pithing needle

Although relic / crypt are the common needling cards, chain of vapor helps you to keep you card loaded until the eot before you get your combo in which you force him / her to crack them by bouncing.
More over, CoV is useful to deal with others threads than hate in order to turn the game even more in your favour.

Additionally...i see that you test firestorm...in which match up doyou side it and in place of what? What cards do you side together it??

[sunshine]

Dakmor Salvage sucking horribly aside, dredging it into your hand won't work if you need it to get rid of Tormod's Crypt, they'll remove in response. This will almost always be the case since they'll side in four Crypts, but you'll never side in four Salvages, meaning you'll be digging for it to begin with. Sounds like a bad idea.

Have you ever honestly tested with Dakmor Salvage? Neither have I, but I've seen it run to great effect by some very talented pilots and I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it as "sucking horribly." To be fair it might be and probably is sub-par but I really don't think it's that bad - especially if hitting the two mana mark becomes something you want to do every game two and three. If my opponent is going to blow his crypt every time I go to dredge a Salvage then maybe I wouldn't mind siding in four of them. I really don't think most players would waste a Crypt just because you're going to dredge a Salvage, if so then it already did its job: forcing a Crypt activation. Also, the fact that it dreges for just two is not so bad when you consider that the reason you're dredging in the first place is to play around Crypt.

[evilchen]

hey mayk0l nice to see a witness in your deck did it help much? can you tell me more about her :P?

[Mayk0l]

Have you ever honestly tested [.....] is to play around Crypt.

To be perfectly honest, I haven't thoroughly tested it. I added it to the decklist and played around with it for some time, but I thoroughly disliked it and discarded it as a serious option for Ichorid. It's just.. too slow.. I'd rather just play a land, tap it, play Pithing Needle and nail Crypt, than drop a land, start dredging, wait until I hit the land, dredge it, put it into play tapped, wait some more, then use it to cast Null Rod and (have) be(en) open to Daze, Wasteland, and other such effects. Your plan becomes pretty transparant, and gives your opponents time to find answers.
You mention siding in four of them (along with Null Rods), what would your sideboard look like?
I guess that in the hands of some talented pilots it could be a viable option, but I myself, so it seems, have no talent for playing that thing.

hey mayk0l nice to see a witness in your deck did it help much? can you tell me more about her :P?

Witness was solid all day, I won't go back to Cephalid Sage ever again. I actually made a play-error during the tournament because I overlooked what Witness could have done for me in that situation (but it didn't matter because I won anyway).
I was very content with it. Actually, during one match, I was going nuts with Witness (DRing it twice in one turn) and someone standing behind me observing the match said something like "Wow Witness is awesome" and he was right, Witness is awesome. It retrieves Unmask (won me one game), it brings back LED/Breakthrough (won me one game), it brings back Firestorm (won me one game), and so on! It has so many options. Parcher, who introduced Witness as an option for Ichorid, summed up perfectly what it does:

Retrieve Breakthrough to play with either a land or LED already in play.
Retrieve Coliseum to play with a land in play and vice-versa.
Retrieve Coliseum to play with an LED in play.
Retrieve LED to pay for DA.
Retrieve LED to pay for Ghostly Prison.
Retrieve LED to pay for a Dread Return through a 3Sphere I knew would be played the following turn when I couldn't win that turn.
Retrieve PImp to fly in for the win.
Retrieve Unmask to force through a Dread Returns with no mana available.
Retrieve Chain, Firestorm, and Needle to either win, or seal a win in following turns.
Return Dread Return, GGT, and Stinkweed with an LED in play to be hardcast when the extra 2/1 body, or extra tokens from his sacrifice made the difference in the win.
Return Dread Return to be hardcast in a 40 minute game when I had four lands in play.
And of course, swung for the win.

"Retrieve Unmask to force through a Dread Returns with no mana available" this one sort of relies on your opponent not seeing through your plays (not countering DR because you're 'only' getting an EW). But I pulled it off last tournament as well.


I'll add to this list:
Return a land to flashback Ray of Revelation

[evilchen]

yeah thanks , i know that list but i was happy to see someone testing it.. and i thought you might give feedback for your games with(as you did :) )

[kensook]

"Retrieve Unmask to force through a Dread Returns with no mana available"

Sorry, I might not be thinking correctly or something but I don't get this one. Can someone explain it to me?

[Mayk0l]

"Retrieve Unmask to force through a Dread Returns with no mana available"

Sorry, I might not be thinking correctly or something but I don't get this one. Can someone explain it to me?

Parcher mentioned this in an earlier post and I actually pulled it off again last tournament. Say you dredge a couple of times and your hand has Stinkweed Imp or Golgari Thug.
You have three creatures and want to kill but fear a possible counterspell in your opponent's hand. Now, Dread Return targetting FKZ will definitely draw it out, so instead you Dread Return targetting Eternal Witness. This is the part where this trick sort of flaws out; it depends on your opponent not realising your plan. If your opponent isn't all that great he'll say (and I quote my opponent from that game) "Ohh.. it's just Witness, no problem". Then you take Unmask and cast it taking the Counterspell. Then you play Dread Return number two to get FKZ.

Basically you're Dread Returing through a Counterspell without mana, for the win

[Dark_Cynic87]

Parcher mentioned this in an earlier post and I actually pulled it off again last tournament. Say you dredge a couple of times and your hand has Stinkweed Imp or Golgari Thug.
You have three creatures and want to kill but fear a possible counterspell in your opponent's hand. Now, Dread Return targetting FKZ will definitely draw it out, so instead you Dread Return targetting Eternal Witness. This is the part where this trick sort of flaws out; it depends on your opponent not realising your plan. If your opponent isn't all that great he'll say (and I quote my opponent from that game) "Ohh.. it's just Witness, no problem". Then you take Unmask and cast it taking the Counterspell. Then you play Dread Return number two to get FKZ.

Basically you're Dread Returing through a Counterspell without mana, for the win

Although it's always a bad idea not to mention bad judgement to assume your opponent is stupid...

Pce,

--DC

[kensook]

I don't get how it's ever a bad idea. In the case provided, it would mean that you have at least 2 Bridge from Below in your GY since you are casting dread return once and you could cast it again while still going for the win with FKZ. Even if the first DR gets countered, you get additional 6 zombies (assuming they are all non-token). After that you can just sacrifice 3 zombies for a DR on FKZ and swing for 12 and if the opponent isn't dead after that you wait an additional turn. What is so bad about that? Getting your tokens bounced or killed? Or am I still not getting it... urr.

[GoldenCid]

In the case provided, it would mean that you have at least 2 Bridge from Below in your GY since you are casting dread return once and you could cast it again while still going for the win with FKZ. Even if the first DR gets countered, you get additional 6 zombies (assuming they are all non-token). After that you can just sacrifice 3 zombies for a DR on FKZ and swing for 12 and if the opponent isn't dead after that you wait an additional turn. What is so bad about that?

Discard against counter deck is a philosophical matter.
I'm not sure if mayk0l thinks about winning in the same turn that he retrieves unmask, maybe is in the next one. What he did was just an example of the power of EW and nothing else, just in addition to the post made by parcher.
Remember that he is mentioning a MANALESS situation where you have FKZ and EW in your graveyard. In this point i think that you have only 1 DR available and you have to decide between getting the combo or get rid of a suspect counterspell before that. With mayk0l's list you have two option for the second aim:
Flashback cabal therapy or retrieve Unmask with EW using your only DR expecting to dredge the second in the draw step of your next turn. Of course if you have no therapy in yard and have tokens in play and a moeba you can run the move proposed by mayk0l. Then you get rid of the counter, pass (hoping a non-counter topdeck) and then get the combo by dredging, DR, zealot and that's it.