I love Snuff Out, but I'm not seeing how it would help your situation. Of the four creatures you mentioned, it kills exactly none of them.
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
Originally Posted by Mantis
I'm inclined to think that Warren Weirding is still the best way to go. Just because you had a couple games in which your Weirdings were sub-optimal, it doesn't mean that they are not the best removal spell for goblins. Against Threshold, Weirding is clearly the best you are going to get. It's the only card that deals with Mongoose, which is a very annoying goblin eater. When your opponent has a Mongoose and Enforcer on the board at the same time, you are screwed whether you are playing Weirding, Terminate, Snuff Out, etc. Plowshares is your only good removal there, but you noted its drawbacks as well. I supposed that in a meta that is heavy with goblins and light on threshold, terminate might be the better choice.
I just got back from a 40+ people tournament, and would like to share the report:
Decklist:
5 – Mountains
1 – Swamp (never hurted me)
4 – Wastelands
2 – Rishadan Port
4 – Bloodstained Mire
1 – Wooded Foothills (only got 1)
4 – Badlands
4 – Goblin Lackey
4 – Goblin Warchief
4 – Goblin Matron
4 – oblin Piladriver
3 – Frogtosser Banerret
3 – Gempalm Incinerator
3 – Goblin Ringleader
2 – Siege-Gang Commander
1 – Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 – Goblin Sharpshooter
1 – Goblin Tinkerer
1 – Mad Auntie
4 – Aether Vial
2 – Warren Weirding
2 – Nameless Inversion
SB:
1 – Goblin King (never used)
1 – Lightning Crafter (never used)
1 – Earwig Squad (great)
1 – Goblin Pyromancer
1 – Warren Weirding (to be explained)
2 – Meekstone
3 – Relic o Progenitous
3 – Shatering Spree
2 – Pyroknesis
I was hoping to play against lots of goblins, ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, it’s the fear and Stiflenaught. Goblins were the reason only 2 Warren MD, and 2 Nameless Inversion. But what I found was this:
1 – Mono b Fearies (2-0)
2 - BG Agro (2-0)
3 - UGW ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (2-0)
4 - Belcher (1-2)
5 - UGB Landstill (2-0)
6 – Ichorid (1-2)
Fearies:
Easy matchup. Got lots of goblins and won before he could recover. Only cards I saw were Vendilion Clique and Spellstuter Sprite (Best cads: Ports and Gempalms) Second round was the same thing. None took me more than 5 rounds.
BG – Agro
Went smoothly. I started with vial and lackey. He started (won the dice) with Goyf and Pernicious Act. When he blew Act I cycled Gempalm took out goyf (wad frogtosser already too), and started to rebuild with warchief and Ringleader. T5 he dropped another Act, but had to blow it for 2 due to Frogtosser and Pileriver. But then T6 I swinging with Matrons+Warchiefs+Ringleaders for the win.
2nd game he land go, I land Lackey, he land Diabolic Edict, I wasteland his Bayou. He never again gets a 2nd land (ps: that Bayou was he only nonbasic non fetch land of his deck).=]
UGW ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh
Tuff one. We both empty our resources. Middle game he has a Meddling Mage (naming ringleader) and a morph card. I have Vial@3, Frogtosser, Matron and Mad Auntie. He’s down to 3. His turn he flip an Exalted Angel (I go down to 13). For 3 turns we trade swings (he wins 4 life on his turn, then looses 4 on mine), but then he brainstorms and gets a Goyf. My last turn I draw a matron. He with 7 life and with 2 untapped dudes. I search and cast matron (for 2 mana) get another matron, get another matron, and get the last one, getting Warchief with her, who comes down trough Vial, and I swing for the game.
Second game I lay a 1 lackey, he takes it with Mind Harness. I drop 2nd land, and 2 other lackeys. T3, one lackey hit’s him, and I drop Siege-Gang, and Earwig squad with prowl, removing 3 goyfs. The other goyf was killed by Warren. The game is soon over after that.
( He leaves the table calling me lucky, and don’t even look at me the rest of the day)
Belcher
1st Game is ridiculous. He does nothing for 4 turns, and I kill him.
2nd Game I have 2 Pyroknesis in hand, but he Charbelchers me on T3 for the game.
3rd Game, he combos in his 1st turn for 12 goblin tokens, while I have 2 Shattering Spree in hand.
Landstill
Despite 1st turn Forces both games, and Standstill both games, I’m able to overwhelm him and leave him with 3 lands at most.
Ichorid
1st game he did his thing on 3rd turn.
2nd game I did 1st turn Relic, and we did draw go for 3 more turns. Then he eot chain vapor my relic, tries to go off, but can’t. I blow both yards, and kill him in more 2 turns.
3rd game he drops mana, and passes. I drop mana (after mull to 5) and relic. He drops mana, LED, Breaktrough, and combos (wish I had tormod’s instead here)
So I finish 6th, because the guy in 1st (belcher) conceded to the guy with UGW ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (who gets to top4 wit that), and I get only 30 reais (no top 8 matches due to time problems)
Things I realized:
-Vial rox.
-Frogtosser Banerret is awesome.
-Fanatics were only missed on the Ichorid matchup.
-Relic is often too slow to stop Ichorid. (but owns ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, It’s the fear and alike)
-Side needs 4 Chalice o the Void.
-Wort never saw play and was constantly boarded out.
-Need more Siege-Gang-Commander.
-Mad Auntie is awesome as 1 MD.
-Sharpshooter and Tinkerer didn’t saw play (haven’t played mirrors, affinity, things with mishra’s factory, SDT, vial, mox, or any artifact worth destroying).
-Nameless Inversion is decent in quite a few matchups. (will drop it to 1)
-6th Fetch is needed.
-21 lands (only 6 non R producing), with 4 warchief+3 Frogtosser never let me down.
Well, that’s that. After all I lost to combo, and won pretty much everything else. That’s what Goblins do, right?
About the recent discussion, Warren Weirding was great all day long. Being able to tutor for a 1 mana edict is way better than terminate could ever be.
Any suggestions on the list are welcome.
Nice finish, you didn't make T8 right?
Seems like you totally outplayed your Threshold opponent so that has nothing to do with luck, I mean seriously an active Exalted Angel and still lose? Thats pretty bad.
I really don't know about 21 lands, I play 24 and I've been loving it. Isn't Frogtosser very bad when you are behind? I can see that it's amazing when you are already ahead and got Ringleaders and Matrons flying all over the place. Goblins does have a large hole in the curve on CC=2 so it might fill up that spot nicely.
Anyway, I would add 2 more Ports, 2 more Siege-Gang and the fourth Ringleader and cut Wort, Tinkerer, Mad Auntie and 2 Nameless Inversion (though if you were expecting many Goblins it might be good).
I personally disagree with cutting Fanatic, it's amazing against Confidant decks, Survival, Ichorid and randomness like Elves. And against other decks it's still a decent beater and awesome with Sharpshooter.
Oh and about Warren Weirding; I always wanted to keep at least one in for sure. But you guys have convinced me pretty much, I will run the Weirdings.
He said he finished 6th, but the top eight did not play off due to time constraints.
Nameless inversion is an interesting idea that I had not thought about. I actually have three pyrokinesis in my sb to exchange for the weirdings in the mirror match (and against other weenie decks). Nameless might be better as it is fetchable with matron and ringleader. Of course, pyrokinesis will often take out two creatures and is "free," so I'm not so sure.
There's also Crib Swap, which -- although shit and a spectacular nombo with Weirding -- does kill anything Swords to Plowshares can while being Matronable.
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
And it's tough to catch with Counterbalance too.
The Source: Your Source for "The Source: Your Source for..." cliche.
Thanks to everyone who read the report.
I finished 6th, yes.
About the the deck, Mad Auntie ain't going anywhere. she rocked so much.
Frogtosser were squeezed in to able me to make more 2cc drops. But during test, I liked them so much, I just can't cut them right now.
I'm thinking of dooing something like this:
-1 Wort
-1 Tinkerer
-1 Sharpshooter
-1 Nameless Inversion
+ 4 Mogg Fanatic
I think the goblin toolbox didn't played how I thought it would.
Maybe I'll leave the Sharpshooter and cut a Gempalm, making it a 2 of.
The SB, I'm thinking of this:
4 - Chalice of the Void
4 - Thoughtseize
3 - Relic of Progenitous
1 - Goblin Pyromancer
3 - Pithing Needle
It would certanly increase my chances agains't combo and control, but I would have to leave Sharpshooter MD. But no harm done, since he is great with Fanatics.
For the record, there were (from what i've seen) 4 other Goblin decks in there: 2 Rb (one with Biding), 1 Rg and 1 Rw. None of them did top 8.
About Nameless x Pyroknesis, there's no comparisson. Though I had 2 MD Nameless, I also had 2 SB Pyroknesis. Just think that Nameless is better MD, since you don't have to ditch a spell, and is tutarable.
Last edited by ScatmanX; 11-24-2008 at 11:50 AM. Reason: Pyroknesis
I think I will try 1 Incinerator, 2 Warren Weirding and 1 Crib Swap as my disruption suite with a single Plateau in my deck. Crib Swap looks exactly like what I was looking for. That also opens up for some Seal of Cleansings postboard. Thanks Illissius.
Nameless Inversion is not maindeck material, it's dead in so many matchups. Against Threshold it does nothing, it can't even kill a Goyf and it does nothing against Landstill.
A toolbox sucks, I totally agree with you on that one. It really is the danger of cool things, I mean there is just no scenario I would rather do quite tricks with Wort than just smash face with Ringleader or Siege-Gang. And the same goes for Tinkerer and Mad Auntie, there is always something better to get. Sharpshooter may be the exception, but it could very well be that he shouldn't be in the maindeck as well. You want a stable deck that allows for the same gameplan every time. I play 4 Siege-Gangs for a reason; it gives me free wins. I have yet to lose when I went first turn Lackey second turn Siege Gang, a Mad Auntie perhaps makes me lose in that situation. Mad Auntie just seems very win more, it requires you to already have a huge army on board and if you play the right Goblins you should be winning anyway.
Anyway, I will give the Bannerets a try, those might be promising.
I've always loved frogtosser ever since first I tested him, immediately after LOR was released. The deck lacks really good T2 drops, (driver is also a terrible topdeck, unless you're already winning) and in a deck with 8 raw CA spells and 2-4 SGCs, frogtosser makes your turn threes much more explosive than warchief: turn two frogtosser into turn three matron for weirding is teh sex, and I do still enjoy me some EOT chief into hast nonsense, but I think banneret deserves a place in Rb builds. I run 3 bannerets, 2 chiefs, and 22 lands instead of the classic 23. I also favor 3x earwigs main over piledrivers 2-4, as he's often as big, and can neuter ANT and the like if they have a slow hand, (many lists don't play burning wish anymore, and only run 1-2 tendrils, so if you snatch the two tendrils and the single ETW, if they happen to run it, its scoopsville) or if you go T1 lackey-> T2 cheif/banneret via lackey, prowl squad for 1B. My list for reference:
// Lands
4 [R] Badlands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [PT] Swamp (3)
6 [TSP] Mountain (1)
// Creatures
1 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
1 [LRW] Mad Auntie
3 [MOR] Frogtosser Banneret
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
3 [10E] Mogg Fanatic
1 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
1 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer
3 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
3 [MOR] Earwig Squad
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [LRW] Mad Auntie
SB: 1 [10E] Goblin King
SB: 3 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
Also, Wort has won me so many games as a fetchable 1 of I think she's worth including, at least gets the nod over sharpshooter, who is really only useful in the mirror, against EtW tokens, (less and less played) and against awkward rogue decks that you should beat anyway. Wort is the best topdeck after turn 3, and the best card to have mid-late game after a deed, WoG, or ground stall. I've recurred matrons, ringleaders, incinerators, and edicts to win against aggro-control decks in the current meta-goyf, and recurred SGCs to win against a moat packing control deck. Fanatics are arguably the deck's weakest card, but so often you find yourself starring down some annoying-ass 1 toughness creature/ichorid deck, and wishing that 1/2or 3/2 driver was a game-deciding fanatic.
only 2 Warchiefs?!
only 3 Fanatics despite that last comment of yours?!
2 swamps and 0 ports?
I don´t know, maybe it´s just in my head, since I never tested a list like that, but I don´t think those are the best choices one can make...
(but only 2 of the guy that makes all your goblins hasty monsters?? it´s kind of weird)
I play 2 chiefs and 3 bannerets. I like the speed boost of the banneret, but still understand the POWER of haste, and cannot cut chief, as while his haste ability is often irrelevant the turn he comes down, he often makes winning a turn faster, but the deck does run 4 fact or fictions and 4 demonic tutors. Same explination for fanatics: cards that are 4 of you want to see every game, often twice, cards you run as a 3 of you want to see once a game, 2- if you want to see one in long games, or via tutors/top. I want to see as many ringleaders and matrons as possible, so they are auto four-ofs, while lackeys and vials must be in your opener to be of any use, thus their 4-of status. Fanatic usually only has to do his thing once before things like incinerator, weirding, or matron-> what you need takes over the role he plays. The chief/banneret split is honestly me trying to 'fix' the curve with the removal of drivers in favor of squads, and prowl a squad/matron->removal turn three. The addition of another 'discount' effect also can be factored in, as well as that he can come in through vial turn three as opposed to chief on turn four.
Curve breakdown:
1 drops: 11 (lackey, vial, fanatic)
2 drops: 9 (banneret, wierding, tinkerer, driver, incinerator, (only kills mother, bob, ect turn two)
3 drops: 8/11 (chief, matron, auntie, *squad*)
4 drops: 5 (wort, ringleader)
5 drops: 6/3 (SGC, *squad*)
would look awkward as (notional w/o banneret, with squads and auntie, +1 SGC)
1 drops: 11
2 drops: 6
3 drops: 11/8
4 drops: 5
5 drops: 7/4
Traditional goblins lists:
4 lackey
4 fanatic
4 vial
3 wierding
4 driver
1 tin street/tinkerer
1 incinerator
4 warchief
4 matron
4 ringleader
4 siege gang
23 lands
curve:
1: 12
2: 9
3: 8
4: 4
5: 4
(notice how this is similar to my curve with bannerett, as opposed to my curve if I played 4 chiefs and no bannerets.)
I can't even remember the number of games where 2 or 3 Warchiefs got killed, and more than 1 Piledriver was also killed. The deal is that they are not cards that I just want to see, but that I want to see alot! T3 Warchief is a solid play, becaus it enables many T4 shanenigans. (note that i still defend Frogtosser also)
The problem of running only 2 Warchiefs and 1 Piledriver is, if they die, and you can't get Wort to reccur them, you'll be in a terible place.
@ everyone:
what cards do you guy consider to play on your Sideboards?
I've posted mine last changes 6 posts ago, but I'm not really happy with it. I really wish i could have something better than Thoughtseize and Needle.
I've played a lot with Thorn of Amethist (4 maindeck) but they were almost everytime to slow to even stall combo. So, please give me some other ideas here. =]
Mandatory are 4 Relic of Progenitus and 4 Chalice of the Void. I bring in Relic against Ichorid, Loam, Team America, Eva Green, Dreadstill and Threshold. Relic allows you to kill Goyf with Fanatic, Sharpshooter and Siege Gang, keeps Mongeese small and delays Tombstalker. So 4 are just mandatory they are awesome. Chalice is obvious as it's the only the thing that gives us a shot vs. Burn and Combo decks.
I run 2 or 3 copies of Goblin Tinkerer in my sideboard mostly to be able to nuke Chalice and Diamond from Aggro Loam, they are great against Dreadstill, stopping not only Dreadnought but you can also activate them to nuke a Top in response to a fetchland and it kills Factory. Against MUC and Stax they also come in.
That's 11 slots, for the rest I usually run 1 Earwig Squad in my SB if I don't already run it in the mainboard and possibly more if there's a lot of combo or decks playing Intuition. The 3 remaining slots are my meta slots and can be filled up by Mad Aunties (against Engineered Plague), Sharpshooter (if I don't run it main) and Tormod's Crypt is Ichorid and Aggro Loam are all over the place. If there's a lot of Goblins I will run some Incinerators in the board.
Also, Thorn of Amethyst is awful in Legacy. Combo is too fast and all the other decks run creatures. Even Threshold doesn't really care, as they can now trade a land with your resources instead.
I agree that Thorn is pretty bad. I tested it myself and it doesn't do enough to slow down other decks. I agree that Chalice is a must. My goblin build splashes green, so I include Krosan Grip in the side. It's better than Mad Auntie, against Plague and they also kill troublesome enchantments such as Humility. I know I'm in the minority, but I include Choke in my sb because it is a devastating card against Threshold, Landstill, and other blue-based decks. I play Leyline of the Void over Relic because it continuously removes cards from hitting the graveyard and cannot be needled. It doesn't seem worth it boarding in graveyard hate against many decks other than Ichorid and Loam.
I hear 5/3s that aren't dependent on the number of attacking creatures and SGCs have been known to win games as well. Also early drivers are often not even big enough to trade with goyf, so I've changed to consistently bigger guys that are relevant in more MUs, at the cost of being more expensive (and thus my inclusion of 5 'chief' effects.
Chalice is to slow combo, thorn a better SB slot to help you get there against combo after your chalice, as it is also relevant against stacks, loam, control, ect, whereas SB cards like pillar, while arguably a better augment to chalice, are too narrow to bring in against other decks. Also, goblins ~ glass cannon vs combo anyhow, IMO the 3 MB squads or them fizzling is the ONLY way you will win G1, and I'm not willing to invest 8-11 slots of my SB just to hope I can come to a positive win % after I've ALLREADY lost G1, because even IF you can move the odds to 60/40, chances are you're still going to lose that G3 if you don't lose G2. If you play in a meta that's JUST combo and thresh decks, I wouldn't even bother boarding vs thresh, you should beat them anyhow, and devote 11 slots to combo and 4 to grave hate/ichorid.
tl;dr: thorns could also be magus of the moon, but I've found him lackluster in tournaments when I didn't already has a positive MU with the deck I boarded him in against. I used to run between 1 and 2 goblin settlers back when tabernacle was played as a land, but he could also possibly be relevant in the current land-skimping meta to compliment wasteland, but again, it seems like a 'sharpshoter' slot, where I would want it MD in a certain meta, and not at all even in the SB in any other situation. I used to run the last fanatic, tinkerer number two and a sledder to aid against decks packing jitte or ichorid . Any suggestions other than 'thorn is lackluster'?
@Justin: Could you please elaborate on why Relic of Progenitus isn't worth it against Threshold? I read an old SCG article by Bardo and Machinus on Threshold vs. Goblins and Machinus even SB-ed in Tormod's Crypt against them. It would seem Relic is awesome against Threshold, it stops their assault because you use the remove a card ability each turn and then it allows you to kill a Goyf or a Mongoose for free by activating it's second ability.
The article was written before Tarmogoyf was printed. - Bardo
The resons are basicly 2 imo:
1- Tormod kept their creatures small for a bit of time. It needed a couple turns at least to build a 7 card graveyard even with mental note. With Goyf in place of Werebear, the opponent can just keep any istant+ a fetch in play and make the Goyf a 2/3 instantly (which is bigger than any creature in the deck). Even istantly making a 1/2 goyf (with just a fetch in play OR instant in hand) can block every Lackey, Matron, Fanatic and even a Piledriver attacking alone.
2- Thresh-type decks adopted stifle as a staple MD card. So you can do savage tricks like attacking, letting him block with goyf, assign dmg, pop Relic and watch the goyf die as state based effect even if the opponent has a fetch and an istant in hand. But if the opponent plays a stifle he just 2 for 1ed you and you're probably screwed.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
1- If you know how to play relic, you will pop the fanatic, then in response play the first ability of the relic on your opponent and still in response the second one. Killing goyf unless he has a fetch (something you can see) and an instant (or 2 instants). If he is blocking with the goyf, then he will need 3 cards in the grave after the relic (something unusual) unless he is blocking a lackey and you don't have a fanatic.
2- Ok, stifle is a pain in the ... but if your opponent has a mana open, simply play the relic ability first, and then attack for the win. If he stifles it, at least you don't lose CA:
He would still only need either an instant or a fetch to stop fanatic from killing goyf. You would be stacking things like this:
:top:
relic "remove all graves" ability
relic tap ability
fanatic
:bottom:
All your opponent would need to do is let the first ability resolve, then the second, then with only the fanatic ability on the stack he fetches or plays an instant, making goyf 1/2.
If you want to do it with the results you want, you'd need to use the tap ability of the artifact, sac fanatic, then use the remove all graves ability. Like this:
:top:
relic "remove all graves" ability
fanatic
relic tap ability
:bottom:
Then if they respond to fanatic with a card going to the grave, the goyf will revert to 0/1 after the last ability resolves and will die.
they haunt minds...
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