i definitely agree with youOriginally Posted by frogboy
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
oh no you don't need blue to win at all. your deck in one on one should crush most people, besides hardcore control decks.
im just saying in multiplayer, bc that's all the EDH i play is multiplayer. but adding some sort of token generator isn't that bad bc late game you are gonne be sitting on like 15 mana with nothing to spend it on.
just a suggestion
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
Yup.
What's your late game plan? You won't win with simple beats. You can use Goyf and Doran as an early defender, but that's about it. You should expand the "cool stuff section", or build your deck around your "cool stuff". For instance, you're running T&N, so run creatures that combo with it. You have Profane command, but have you considered the green command instead? Goes nicely with the Witness you already run. Corpse dance instead of animate dead, Slaughter instead of Condemn.
As for your "answers", a card like Hymn is great, but not in multiplayer. You need either recurring threats or bigger effects. Think Mindslicer. If you want to run discard, Raven's crime is solid. While we're talking about Retrace, Worm harvest is probably better than CotH. You're already light on card draw, so you'd have to focus on recurring the threats you have. Still, there is card draw available in green: Sylvan library with Abundance, Krosan tusker, Yavimaya elder. And in black, look no further than Promise of Power.
If you're afraid of facing combo, you could load up on graveyard hate. You have a single Withered wretch, I'd definately run Loaming shaman. As you can use it on yourself it's never a dead card. If you take care of graveyard hate combo, you can put the blame on "the white player" if the table loses to creature based combo and put the blame on "the blue player" if the table loses "random cards combo".
EDIT: oh, recurring nightmare is banned in EDH.
"Our words are backed with NUCLEAR WEAPONS!"
Yeah run Abundance, it's required. I've won a few games just by sitting back with my moat up and letting my opponent mill themselves. Abundance also prevents late game mill, look it up on the gatherer if you don't believe me.
Also if you are running fatties, look into Greater Good. I have sacrificed Multuni or however you spell it, to Greater Good, and drew like 30 cards and won the next turn.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
Revised List
General
1 Teneb
Lands
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Treetop Village
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Maze of Ith
3 On Color Duals
3 On Color Rav Duals
3 On Color Painlands
5 Fetches
3 On Color Karoo Lands
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Vesuva
1 Murmuring Bosk
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
Accel
1 Sol Ring
3 On Color Signets
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
Creatures
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Eternal Witness
1 Doran
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Shriemaw
1 Tombstalker
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Spiritmonger
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Genesis
1 Gigapede
1 Withering Wretch
1 Exalted Angel
1 Divinity of Pride
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Krosan Tusker
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
Planeswalkers
1 Garuuk
1 Elspeth
Draw/Tutors
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Crop Rotation
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Necropotence
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Scroll Rack
1 Harmonize
1 Abundance
1 Promis of Power
Removal/Board Control
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Condemn
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Vindicate
1 Unmake
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Aura of Silence
1 Krosan Grip
1 Overwhelming Forces
1 Wrath of God
1 Damnation
Other Control
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Ravages of War
1 Armageddon
Equipment/Aura
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Loxodon Warhammer
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Cool Stuff
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Mobilization
1 Animate Dead
1 Tooth and Nail
1 Mirari's Wake
1 Decree of Justice
1 Regrowth
1 Life from the Loam
1 Decree of Justice
1 Profane Command
I am quite a few cards over. Any ideas of how to win without attacking? Tendrils doesn't look great. Any thing else that's okay. Also, I know the list is like 110-something cards, but I dont want to cut anything until I actually have a good strategy to win without the combat phase.
Here is my suggestions for cutting:Sol Ring, Elves of Deep Shadow, Gaddock Teeg(He cuts off alot of cards in your deck), Mesmeric Fiend, Slaughter Pact, Duress, Hymm to Tourach, and if you want you can cut the LftL Engine and the Armageddon/Ravages of War all together. Discard is just bad for EDH.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
I would probably kill a man for the ability to always have Sol Ring in my opening hand.
Add Rout.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
listen to frogboy.
run rout haha
forreal.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
Oh crap I totally forgot about Rout. Yeah that's in. I'll try out the cuts. Can you guys post your lists, even if they are completely different then mine so I know what I expect to see?
Yeah i left mine in my friend's car but i'll post it the next time i have my deck.
Run a storage land or two, they usually get like 10 plus counter a game, which is always good to cast fat stuff with one land. And the only reason i suggested you cut some accel is bc you run 30+ land, and tutors and draw spells. You should get land each game.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
Oh crap, Greater good! Brilliant! I don't know how I could've missed that, because my deck revolves around...
...sacrificing:
general
1 Savra, queen of the Golgari
creatures
1 Spike weaver
1 Spike feeder
1 grave-shell scarab
1 stinkweed imp
1 spiritmonger
1 brooding saurian
1 shambling shell
1 Fleshbag marauder
1 Creakwood liege
1 sakura tribe elder
1 yavimaya elder
1 krosan tusker
1 twisted abomination
1 sadistic hypnotist -> Mindslicer
1 visara the dreadful
1 Shriekmaw
1 Helldozer
1 Phyrexian Plaguelord
1 avatar of woe
1 Midnight banshee
1 necroskitter
1 withered wretch
1 woodfall primus
1 loaming shaman
1 puppeteer clique
1 eternal witness
1 Magus of the coffers
spells
1 Sudden death -> Sudden spoiling?
1 Putrefy
1 Tendrils of corruption
1 Pernicious deed
1 Nevinyrrals disk -> Oblivion stone?
1 Damnation
1 Living dead
1 Mutilate
1 Grave pact
1 phyrexian arena
1 Promise of Power
1 sword of fire and ice
1 skullclamp
1 Sylvan library
1 Abundance
1 Sensei's divining top
1 Sol ring
1 scapeshift
1 worm harvest
1 crop rotation
1 life from the loam
1 regrowth
1 grim harvest -> Genesis
1 deathrender
1 beacon of unrest
1 dread return -> profane command
1 tortured existence -> Survival?
1 corpse dance
1 entomb
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 beseech the queen -> primal command
1 staff of domination
1 Lightning greaves
1 Thousand year elixir
11 swamp
7 forest
1 cabal coffers
1 Leechridden swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 dakmor salvage
1 Vesuva
1 dust bowl -> Thawing glaciers
1 Twilight mire
1 barren moor
1 Tranquil thicket
1 Bayou
1 Overgrown tomb
1 Llanowar wastes
1 Golgari rotfarm
1 wasteland
1 strip mine
1 svotghos, the restless tomb
1 Terramorphic expanse
1 unholy grotto
1 volrath's stronghold
28 creatures, 37 lands. There are some cards that I want to add, but that I don't have or that are in other decks (like Genesis and Survival, which are in my survival-deck, duh). But the cards that I have in their place are very nice as well. Tortured existance draws a lot less attention than Survival, and Grim harvest might even be better than Genesis! Well, without Survival that is.
The idea behind the deck is that creatures won't stick around for long anyway, so better do something with their departure. Hence the ability to sacrifice (echo, evoke), or some persist, or recursion. I'd like to work in some planeswalkers and perhaps Bone shredder. And Greater good! I had a Quillspike in it, but somehow people kill it on sight.
"Our words are backed with NUCLEAR WEAPONS!"
Here is my list, it's Thanksgiving morning and i can't fucking sleep go me. My deck is an Enchantment based deck that wins with tokens or through random other beats.
My general is Rhys the Redeemed.
Lands:
12 Plains
9 Forest
1 Forbidding Watchtower
1 Vitu Ghazi, City Tree
1 New Benalia
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Temple Garden
1 Savannah
1 Quicksand
1 Selenysa Sanctuary
1 Elfhame Palace
1 Artic Flats
1 Brushland
1 Urza's Factory
1 Treetop Village
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Arrest
Enchantments:
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Story Circle
1 Sterling Grove
1 Righteous Aura
1 Pacifism
1 Sylvan Library
1 Humility
1 Abundance
1 Greater Auramancy
1 Temporal Isolation
1 Divine Presence
1 Mobilization
1 Rites of Flourishing
1 Cage of Hands
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Glare of the Subdual
1 Ivory Mask
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Worship
1 Hobble
1 Reverence
1 Privileged Position
1 Ghostly Prison
Creatures:
1 Kami of Ancient Law
1 Thornscape Familiar
1 Argothian Enchantress
1 Pristine Angel
1 Platinum Angel
1 Selenysa Guildmage
1 Academy Rector
1 Indrik Stomphowler
1 Fertilid
1 Blazing Archon
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Mother of Runes
1 Mesa Enchantress
1 Eternal Witness
1 Magus of The Moat
1 Verduran Enchantress
1 Krosan Tusker
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Civic Wayfinder
Artifacts:
1 Meekstone
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Mind's Eye
1 Skull of Orm
1 Staff of Domination
1 Crawlspace
Sorcery:
1 Hour of Reckoning
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Final Judgement
1 Wrath of God
1 Decree of Justice
1 Idyllic Tutor
1 Austere Command
1 Heroes Remembered
1 Harmonize
Instant:
1 Respite
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Worldy Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Congregate
1 Return to Dust
Some of the card choices might seem odd, like Congregate for example, but just trust me on this one. I played a 3 hour game of EDH against my friend tonight and barely won by gaining 84 life while he was attacking away. Then i proceeded to make Urza's Factory tokens and doubling them with Rhys. I ended up with like 84 2/2s for the headshot after three hours of grueling play. He freaking Austere Command 4 times during that game taking out all of my enchantments 4 times. The only edit i would make is like, -1 Heroes Remembered for +1 Replenish. I like to fix the deck and put in cards i like whenever i find new cards i like so it's a constantly changing enchantment deck.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
Nah, you don't need to run blue. However, in MP you need to be able to come back from a WoG or some other global effect. A Tarmogoyf is nice to draw early game, but when you don't draw it it's really a dead card, just a simple vanilla creature with no evasion whatsoever. Creatures in EDH need to be strong, have evasion, some kind of cool ability, shroud, etc. Your opponents should be scared when you play a creature, a Goyf just doesn't scare them.
Edit: since you play the same general as I do, here's my list, just for some inspiration perhaps :)
General:
Teneb the Harvester ==> duh...
Mana + mana acc.: 37 land, 5 artifact acc
- Darksteel Ingot
- Golgari Signet
- Orzhov Signet
- Selesnya Signet
- Sol Ring
- 2 Forest
- 4 Plains
- 3 Swamp
- 3 Duals (Bayou, Savannah, Scrubland)
- 3 Shockduals (Godless Shrine, Overgrown Tomb, Temple Garden)
- 3 Painlands (Brushland, Caves of Koilos, Llanowar Wastes)
- 3 Bounce lands (Golgari Rot Farm, Orzhov Basilica, Selesnya Sanctuary)
- 5 Fetch (Mire, Strand, Delta, Heath, Foothills)
- Cabal Coffers
- City of Brass
- Gemstone Mine
- Krosan Verge
- Murmuring Bosk
- Maze of Ith
- Strip Mine
- Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
- Vesuva
- Volrath's Stronghold
- Wasteland
Equipments, aura's: 3
- Quietus Spike
- Sword of Light and Shadow
- Umezawa's Jitte
Tutors and other draw effects: 13
- Scroll Rack
- Ambition's Cost
- Ancient Craving
- Demonic Tutor
- Diabolic Tutor
- Necropotence
- Vampiric Tutor
- Crop Rotation
- Harmonize
- Natures Lore
- Sylvan Scrying
- Tooth and Nail
- Land Tax
Spot-removal: 6
- Ashes to Ashes
- Mortify
- Putrefy
- Unmake
- Vindicate
- Swords to Plowshares
Global-removal: 6
- Damnation
- Overwhelming Forces
- Pernicious Deed
- Armageddon
- Cataclysm
- Wrath of God
Other Spells: 11
- Necromancy
- Profane Command
- Debtors' Knell
- Mirari's Wake
- Crush of Wurms
- Life from the Loam
- Regrowth
- Restock
- Survival of the Fittest
- Congregate
- Decree of Justice
Critters: 19
- Avatar of Woe
- Bone Shredder
- Desolation Angel
- Fleshbag Marauder
- Visara the Dreadful
- Angel of Despair
- Divinity of Pride
- Mystic Enforcer
- Spiritmonger
- Eternal Witness
- Forgotten Ancient
- Genesis
- Spike Weaver
- Thorn Elemental
- Wickerbough Elder
- Yavimaya Elder
- Exalted Angel
- Karmic Guide
- Reya Dawnbringer
Oh wow, I totally forgot about storage lands. Those are so sick.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
Since I really didn't name a specific deck in the title, I don't mind posting my new EDH list with a different General. I really wanted to play blue to smooth out the draws I was getting. GBW has no cheap cantrips so it gets rough. I also wanted to keep white since it has the best removal. The next color was kind of difficult, but to just get to it, I chose black. I chose Sharuum as my general since blue usually plays Tinker so why not make my deck Artifact based and just abuse those two. Anyway, I have pretty much the whole deck purchased minus some lands so I wanted to post it to get some help.
General
SHARUUM, the Hegemon
Lands
1 Tundra
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Adarkar Wastes
1 Mystic Gate
1 Azorius Chancery
1 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave
1 Underground River
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Dimir Aquaduct
1 Scrubland
1 Godless Shrine
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Fetid Heath
1 Orzhov Basilica
1 Arcane Sanctum
1 Vesuva
1 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Ancient Den
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Calciform Pools
1 Tolaria West
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
Accel
1 Mox Diamond
1 Chrome Mox
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Azorius Signet
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Dimir Signet
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Talisman of Progress
1 Obelisk of Esper
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Mind Stone
Draw
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Impulse
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Compulsive Research
1 Frantic Search
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Brilliant Ultimatum
Tutors
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Entomb
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Intuition
1 Gifts Ungiven
Imma Thief
1 Bribery
1 Control Magic
1 Take Possession
1 Treachery
1 Beacon of Unrest
1 Animate Dead
Control
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Condemn
1 Executioner's Capsule
1 Dispeller's Capsule
1 Aura of Silence
1 Vindicate
1 Proteus Staff
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Wrath of God
1 Damnation
1 Scourglass
Planeswalkers
1 Tezzeret, the Seeker
Creatures
1 Gilded Drake
1 Duplicant
1 Memnarch
1 Sundering Titan
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Sphinx Sovereign
1 Sharding Sphinx
1 Trinket Mage
1 Sanctum Gargoyle
1 Mistmeadow Witch
1 Disciple of the Vault
1 Metalworker
Equipment
1 Lightning Greaves
Other
1 Skeleton Shard
1 Mindslaver
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Momentary Blink
A few cards over but I am still tinkering with it to cut it down. If I ever get a Time Vault, it is going in for the combo with Tez/Voltaic Key (I would have to run this though). Why is it that no one else runs it?
Change in list!
After I posted, I have been working non-stop with the deck. Just goldfishing to see if it runs smoothly, getting the right colors, etc. I want more basics first of all.
-3 Shadowmoor lands
+1 Island
+1 Plains
+1 Swamp
I also wanted to add cremate to stop annoying crap like Loam.
+1 Cremate
-1 Damnation (I have a ton of draw and removal always cluttered up my hand)
+1 Time Vault (too good, most likely will proxy and hope it's allowed)
-1 Skeleton Shard (figured out the tough way that I can't return Slaver :$)
-1 Executioner's Capsule (it's an artifact, but lackluster removal)
-1 Metalworker (I just could never get this guy to produce more than 2. I used all my artifact mana accelerating him into play and I am also reducing the artifact count to incorporate more powerful cards)
So that brings me down to 103 cards.
Possible additions...
Counterspells (force, drain, c-spell, mana leak, etc)
Scarecrone (most definitely)
...to be continued
That looks like a nice deck. I'm not sold on the cheap artifact acceleration though. I've read Nightmare's suggestion, and I'm surely going to try it. But I haven't seen anyone play it ever (like that's a golden standard for deckbuilding, heh). In your deck it seems to make some sense, because you want a lot of artifacts. I'd try to work in some deed-protection. Trickbind and Stifle come to mind. Or some regular counterspells.
I think there's only 1 card you really miss in this list: Capsize. The second a should be a capital as well, C.A.psize. It's really good in multiplayer. The other buyback spell worth mentioning works with your theme (artifact reanimation), but isn't really noteworthy otherwise: Forbid.
"Our words are backed with NUCLEAR WEAPONS!"
Your problem is that you're sacrificing a *ton* of synergy for the sake of running spells that seem like bombs to you. (I'm averaging 6 mana from my Metalworker in my Sharuum build!) This deck doesn't seem to get off the ground because it is using Sharuum as a general but not capitalizing on the artifact slant. Some synergistic thoughts-
-Executioner's Capsule should be in. It's not lackluster...it's an artifact, and it doesn't miss much. Sharuum brings it back. Metalworker makes more mana with it in your hand. In this deck, it's better than a lot of removal you're already packing. Cards that work like this are better inclusions than one-shots like Condemn.
-You have nine draw spells, and only one is an artifact. Where is Mind's Eye? Etherium Astrolabe?
-Removal...whay Wrath Of God, but no Engineered Explosives? It's an artifact, Trinket Mage grabs it, etc...
-Land...Where's Miren? Sac outlets are good when your general has a CIP ability that matters...not to mention creatures like Titan.
Miren/Astrolabe->Sharuum->Crystal Shard->Mindslaver/Capsule/...synergistic combos are good.
-Remember, it's EDH. You can pay a bit more for a better effect. Momentary Blink is great for a few turns; Flickerform keeps going and going. (Sharuum/'Form/Mindslaver?)
Synergy is key here. You don't need to pack in a bunch of strategies if you can focus on a few good ones. You shouldn't force in a ton of stuff like counters and control spells just because they're the best in color.
Here's the list I've been running for several weeks:
Sharuum, The Hegemon
Etherium Sculptor
Solemn Simulacrum
Metalworker
Duplicant
Masticore
Arcanis
Angel Of Despair
Memnarch
Scarecrone
Mistmeadow Witch
Sanctum Gargoyle
Vesuvan Shapeshifter
Trinket Mage
Darksteel Colossus
Archbound Crusher
Sphinx Sovereign
Sundering Titan
Disciple Of The Vault
Sensei's Divining Top
Fact Or Fiction
Etherium Astrolabe
Mind's Eye
Thirst For Knowledge
Gifts Ungiven
Mystical Tutor
Merchant Scroll
Vampiric Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Transmute Artifact
Intuition
Enlightened Tutor
Argivian Restoration
Argivian Find
Reconstruction
Tinker
Oblivion Stone
Soulscour
Nevinyrrl's Disk
Dispeller's Capsule
Vindicate
Engineered Explosives
Executioner's Capsule
Scourglass
Crystal Shard
Staff Of Domination
Proteus Staff
Rings Of Brighthearth
Mindslaver
Tezzerer, The Seeker
Corpse Dance
Flickerform
Tormod's Crypt
Debtor's Knell
Time Vault
Voltaic Key
Sculpting Steel
Grim Monolith
Sol Ring
Darksteel Ingot
Azorius Signet
Dimir Signet
Orzhov Signet
Gilded Lotus
Mystic Gate
Sunken Ruins
Fetid Heath
Dimir Aquaduct
Orzhov Basilica
Tundra
Underground Sea
Scrubland
Azorius Chancery
Arcane Sanctum
Glimmervoid
Reflecting Pool
Esper Panorama
Flooded Strand
Polluted Delta
Terramorphic Expanse
Darksteel Citadel
Ancient Tomb
Tolaria West
Ancient Den
Seat Of The Synod
Vault Of Whispers
Barren Moor
Lonely Sandbar
Secluded Steppe
Vesuva
Urza's Factory
Academy Ruins
Tolarian Academy
Volrath's Stronghold
Strip Mine
Miren, The Moaning Well
Maze Of Ith
Island
Swamp
Plains
--->DJ
@DJ: I noticed you weren't running Tidehollow Sculler with Mistmeadow Witch. Any reasons? One of the guys that plays EDH with me has a Sharuum deck and can be crippling at times as you rip cards out of hands permanently. If there's a stronger card I would play it though. Also, I've seen Arcum Daggson do some nutty things in this deck (not that he isn't on his own).
I don't run any discard or counters in my build (instead choosing to focus on removal and my own combos and offensive capabilities), so I'd never really considered the Sculler. It's a good combo, but the big problem is that it's a slow-but-irritating combo, which usually makes you a big target in my group.
It might be worth inclusion once Vault gets the ax, though. Currently, I'm just using the Witch as a means of abusing Sharuum's CIP trigger, with the occasional Titan in there as well.
2) Dagsson is certainly worth a slot if you can find room. I tend to steer clear of creatures that don't have abilities I can use immediately (Masticore), CIP abilities (Sharuum), or combo pieces (Witch). My other problem is a low creature count. Ultimately, though, he could be a good fit. Perhaps in the place of a tutor (most likely Enlightened).
--->DJ
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