Nimble Mongoose? Thresh should be easy to obtain in such a burn heavy deck and 3/3 creatures with shroud are pretty good I hear. May not be worth stretching the mana base or be better then Figure of Destiny though.
You might have to cut down on the number of Grim Lavamancers your run as well. I prefer Grim Lavamancer myself, since he doesn't have to cross the red zone to hurt my opponent.Originally Posted by Sanguine Voyeur
First and foremost, I'd like to say that I thoroughly enjoy playing Goyf Sligh. It's a very fun deck and very easy to pilot.
There are some things that I'd like to address:
Figure of Destiny is versatile, makes functional use of excess mana sources, and can be fairly formidable at 4/4. Regardless, I think the card is pretty bad. As a creature, and regardless that its mana cost can be split over time, its always an inefficient cost to power ratio. Vanilla 1cc 1/1's and 2cc 2/2's are horrible; simply put, Figure of Destiny horrible until it gets turned into a 4/4.
Even at 4/4, it still costs 5 mana to get there. With a curve like Goyf Sligh, I never find myself wanting to invest early mana sources into getting an FoD to 4/4. As a topdeck later on, I cannot see myself ever wanting to invest 5 mana to get a 4/4. I'd much sooner run Ashenmoor Gouger than I would ever consider running FoD (and for the record, I've tested and found Gouger too slow).
I've always found success in cost efficiency in this sort of aggressive strategy, and FoD doesn't deliver for me. I'd rather play Lava Spike, honestly, and I cannot see myself running that either.
The next guy I'd like to talk about is Wild Nacatl. Mana instability is not a strong enough argument for why this guy should not be run, IMO. At minimum, this guy is always going to be a 2/2 (every single land in the deck is a Mountain besides the 1 Forest). Making a light splash of white to be able to essentially drop a 3/3 on turn 1 is rediculously good. Even at just 2 swings as a 3/3, this guy clearly carries his weight; 1 mana for 6 damage is exactly the kind of early game aggression this deck wants from its creatures. You don't even have to drop PoP's to squeeze this guy in; he's the only card in the maindeck that requires white/plains (and the 4 Teeg's that I run in the sideboard are the only cards requiring white/plains).
I have to disagree with you about Kird Ape. Some of your points are very valid, but some of the other ones are not as valid, IMO.Here are my personal reasons for NOT playing Kird Ape:
- He sucks. End of story.
Ok, Ok. Here's why he sucks IMO:
- For Ape to be effective, you must play an early Taiga which I generally hate doing with this deck. I only play my green producing lands if I have to cast good spells - Tarmo, Library, Grip. Needing to play that early Taiga can open you up to Wasteland, Stifle on a Fetch that you may have been able to save for Library shuffling, and more dmg from your own PoP. Granted, this not a concern against some decks.
- Ape is terribly outclassed by today's cheap critters - Goyf, Nuaght, Tombstalker, Factory, and Goose all laugh at the Ape.
- An ass of 3 really sucks - see above, but also he is vulnerable to almost all commonly played removal sans Magma Jet and Fanatic.
- He doesn't do much other than swing. Look at the other critters commonly played in the deck: Yes Goyf can only swing, but he gets huge. Same for FoD. Fanatic pings and Lavamang Shocks. KM also provides a Shock and a chumper.
- He is a bad top-deck. See above. Say it's turn 6 (maybe you have 3 or 4 lands in play) and you have nothing in hand and need to squeeze in 1 dmg. Take these commonly played GoyfSligh critters and order them in the preference of which you would like to draw them in that situation: Goyf, KM, Dark Confidant, Fanatic, Lavamang, FoD, Kird Ape. Order them again for 2 dmg and then 3 dmg. Hell, if you got time do it for 4 and 5 dmg too. I bet Ape comes out on the bottom of that list each time. Why? Because all he'll ever do is put a little guy on the table.
- He sucks. End of story.
-Oftentimes, you're going to be forced into playing a Taiga anyway. Turn 1 Mountain, turn 2 Taiga is a play I find myself making very often. I realize he forces the deck into more vulnerable manabase situations, and this can sometimes cause bad times. More often than not though, hitting a green source is something I like to have on turn 2 (regardless of whether its a Forest or a Taiga).
-I agree that Ape is outclassed by other creatures like Goyf, Tombstalker, Dreadnought, etc. The simple fact is that Kird Ape shouldn't be discounted because he's not a fatty... the goal of the deck is to drop early beats, squeeze damage through early, and then finish the opponent off with burn. Kird Ape almost always swings for at least 4, which is well worth the 1cc investment. Even if he's worthless past turn 3, it doesn't really matter at that point. In my experience, creatures like Nought and Stalker (usually/on average) come down after you've already gotten your investment out of the card (4+ damage). An early 1/1 Mongoose does not laugh at Kird Ape, in fact, Mongoose will very rarely hit 3/3 by the time Kird Ape has done his job.
-An ass of 3 is no different from other 1cc creature options, so I find this mostly irrelevant.
-He's not intended to do anything other than swing, though. I thought that was the point of creatures in the deck, to swing early and put pressure on the opponent. Multiple purpose/versatile creatures are fine and everything, but the general focus for running critters is to squeeze in early damage. Once the game goes past the early game, the deck quickly switches to the burn gameplan. That's the way I've always played Goyf Sligh, anyway. Some of the other critters in the deck have alternate uses, yes, but that doesn't mean they are strictly better.
-He is a horrible topdeck, I agree, but this deck has plenty of burn spells that are great topdecks, so it's a mitigated factor for the most part. Yes, I'd much rather see Fanatic, Lavamancer, KM, etc later in the game when the ground game doesn't work anymore. I find myself wanting stronger early game plays rather than stronger late game topdecks though,, since my opponent's life total is likely to be very very low by then the late game and I have inevitability with all the burn I run. Kird Ape has done more early aggressive damage for me than Mogg Fanatic, Grim Lavamancer, and Keldon Marauders (when dropped on turn 1).
This does not mean that Kird Ape is necessarily worth running, just that I think he is being discredited more than he should be.
---
It could quite possibly be a varying difference of how we play the deck. I like to drop Nacatl/Ape turn 1, swing a couple of times (burning away early blockers if I have to), and then toss the rest of my burn at the opponent. Regardless of whether or not the aggro plans goes to shit by turn 3-4, I want to get the most damage out of them in those early turns as I can before I switch gameplans. I run a low creature count and a large burn count, as a result of the way I play the deck. I find Nacatl/Ape doing more early damage than Fanatic/Marauders.
---
This is what I'm currently running, and it has been performing very well for me:
// Lands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [B] Taiga
2 [A] Plateau
4 [RAV] Mountain (2)
1 [8E] Forest (3)
// Creatures
4 [BD] Kird Ape
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
// Spells
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [DLM] Incinerate
4 [FD] Magma Jet
2 [EX] Price of Progress
4 [VI] Fireblast
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 4 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
The sideboard is just thrown together right now, as I have been mostly working on tuning the maindeck configuration.
I don't run Mogg Fanatic or Keldon Marauders for several reasons:
In the case of Mogg Fanatic, if I drop him turn 1, he will typically average 2 swings before the ground goes stale (in my testing), making him a 1 mana 3 damage spell, which is good. However, as a topdeck later on, he's usually a 1 mana for 1 damage. Aside from his versatility and usefulness against decks like Ichorid, he's typically equivillant to Lava Spike, and I don't run that either.
It can be argued that Mogg Fanatic is superior to Kird Ape, and this is something I've been trying to test for a while.
Keldon Marauders is great when dropped on turn 2 and is able to do the full 5 damage for 2 mana. The problem I have with him is that more often, I'm only getting 2 damage out of him. For 2 mana, I'd prefer to get at least 3 damage out of the spell.
Finally, the last eyesore is Incinerate. I really like this card, since it can target creatures (unlike Lava Spike), dodges Chalice@1, and still does a solid 3 damage for 1 card invest. Overall, I've been happy with its inclusion to my burn suite.
The numbers on Fireblast/Price of Progress are debatable, but I've been liking the current configuration very much so far.
Feedback on my list is welcomed, whether negative or positive. Thanks guys.
Would a card like Karplusan Wolverine, Goblin Firestarter, or even Magus of the Scroll be worthwhile? The most valid point regarding Kird Ape seems to be that he is a bad top deck; The previous mentioned cards have a way of dealing damage to the opponent without swinging, much like Keldon Mauraders and Mogg Fanatic.
With the decklist you provided, can't you put Lightning Helix in place of Incinerate with a little tweak in the manabase? I just feel like Incinerate is just a worse version of the 1 for 3s and there are better cards to put in that place.
With only two sources of white mana, the three life does not outweigh being unable to cast it.
I just want to add that, right after I turned my computer off last night, I called into question Grim Lavamancer vs Mogg Fanatic (in my list).
Between Kird Ape, Grim Lavamancer, Mogg Fanatic, and 7 creature spots available, I'd really like to test different configurations. I'm looking for the most aggressive early game critters, i.e whichever ones I can expect to get the most damage out of in the first 3 turns of the game. I'll do some testing and get back to everyone, though I'd greatly appreciate feedback as well.
I'm thinking I might try dropping the 3 Grim Lavamancers for 3 Mogg Fanatic, since Mogg Fanatic tends to be much more aggressive (i.e deals damage faster).
Actually, I'm going to try this creature base and work (playtest) from there:
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
Thoughts on that configuration?
I know that alot of people look at Lightning Helix and think that it is a superior burn spell, but in actuality, its not. When is 3 lifegain ever going to be relevant? The mirror? This deck is one, if not the most, aggressive deck(s) in the format. The fact that Lightning Helix creates more manabase instability is not worth it; the (very light) white splash is only for Wild Nacatl, which doesn't even need a plains in play to be an effective 2/2 beater.With the decklist you provided, can't you put Lightning Helix in place of Incinerate with a little tweak in the manabase? I just feel like Incinerate is just a worse version of the 1 for 3s and there are better cards to put in that place.
Incinerate is perfectly fine. What other 1 mana 3 damage burn spells are better to put in its place that I don't already run, Lava Spike? The inability to target creatures pretty much invalidates Lava Spike for me, and I'd rather run more Price of Progress if I'm going to add more to-the-dome-only burn spells. Being 2cc isn't necessarily bad either, since it does give the deck some extra options against Chalice@1. I can think of no other replacement that does exactly what I want Incinerate to do, unfortunately.
I would normally just edit my post rather than double post, but my last post was like 4 days ago, so I decided to just make a new post.
As far as this archtype is concerned, I've been playtesting the shit out of it. I've made several small tweaks here and there, and have been thoroughly impressed by the current configuration. It almost seems flawless in design.
I don't wanna clutter the thread with yet another decklist, since I already have one posted on this page. Instead, I'll simply discuss some of the changes and why they have been so effective.
First and foremost, I've finalized on this creature base:
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
Throughout my testing, I've tried lots of different creature configurations. Earlier configurations were more creature heavy (18-20), but as of late, I've been finding that less creatures is in fact much better. I really only want to see a creature(s) in the first or second turns, with the exception of Mogg Fanatic (which is subpar, but still useful beyond turn 3). I've found 14 to be the ideal configuration for me; it's very aggressive, and makes the clock much faster by making topdecks more relevant on turns 3-5.
I've tried Figure of Destiny, I've tried Keldon Marauders, I've tried Grim Lavamancer. I was not impressed with any of them.
Figure of Destiny is simply inefficient when it comes to cost-to-power ratio, and is mana hungry in a deck that aims to constantly curve out. I've never ever liked this guy and I cannot for the life of me understand his immediate and lasting popularity.
Keldon Marauders is a good investment when he can do 5 damage for 2 mana, but often I find myself either having him chump blocked, or wasting a burn spell to remove a blocker; in the case of removing a blocker, it's simply wasting a burn spell because Keldon Marauders doesn't stick around. I'd much rather run additional burn, like Lava Spike.
Lastly, for Grim Lavamancer, I simply find him not aggressive enough; simply put, he's too slow. 1 mana for a 1/1 is viable on Fanatic because Fanatic fills several important niches whilst being fairly aggressive. As aggro, Lavamancer is severly lacking as a 1/1; his tap for damage ability is great, but it takes a full turn to work, is inefficient the first time around (RR for 2 damage), and typically doesn't get more than 3 uses before the graveyard is empty (not saying RRRR for 6 damage isn't good, but it's very slow). As a topdeck, I'd almost always rather have Fanatic, which is really what the Grim Lavamancer slots would be competing for.
As far as Kird Ape goes, I'm sold with him as a 2-of. He compliments Wild Nacatl as a big cheap beat (bigger than 1/1, anyway), and 2/3 is fairly sizeable on turns 2 and 3. He almost always averages 4 damage for 1 mana when he isn't removed, which is well worth the investment. Oftentimes I squeeze 6 damage out of him, sometimes even 8, which is exactly what I want out of a creature. Limiting my vanilla beats to 10 has been phenomenal in testing. It prevents bad topdecks on turns 3-5, and since Kird Ape is clearly the weakest of vanilla beaters, running him as a 2-of has done it's job perfectly.
Ah, Wild Nacatl. This guy is frickin savage. I cannot emphasize how amazing this guy has been for me in every single game I see him in. A 3/3 on turn 2 is just so damn good, it's rediculous. Like Kird Ape, I typically average 2 swings with him. 1 mana for 6 damage is just huge; 1 mana for 9 damage is just insane. Manabase instability or not, this guy is exactly what Goyf Sligh wants. I've very rarely had manabase issues, even in the face of decks packing recurring Wastelands, Stifle/Wasteland, Sinkhole/Wasteland, so on and so forth. In games where LD is an issue, it is not out of the question to simply fetch basic Forest on turn 1 and basic Mountain on turn 2 to make him a 2/2, which is still very solid for all intents and purposes. Seriously guys, I suggest everyone who plays this deck to at least playtest the guy; you'll find him as good as I have, I promise.
I also fit the 3rd Price of Progress into my deck. I know everyone knows this already, but the card is just so damn good against so many matchups, that's it's entirely worth it. 2 mana for 6 damage straight up, oftentimes 8-10 damage, is savage. I think it's wrong to not run at least 3 maindeck (unless you know the meta is going to be full of monocolor decks for whatever reason). Going 3c, with the minimal splash of white, does very little towards weaking PoP. Sometimes you'll take 4 off of it, sure, but this deck is so aggressive that there are very few times where a Flame Rift isn't worth it.
Lastly, I changed my sideboard configuration up. The only matchup where graveyard hate is necessary whatsoever is Ichorid, which is a matchup I've found pretty favorable, especially with the 4 Mogg Fanatics maindeck. It's funny when the opponent sides in cards like Chain of Vapor and Pithing Needle for games 2 and 3, only to find out at the end of the round that I don't even run graveyard hate in the sideboard. Maybe I've just gotten lucky playtesting against it, but is 4x sideboard hate really worth only being relevant for 1 matchup? I suppose that if I knew Ichorid was going to be a huge metagame presence, I'd run a playset of Crypt's in the board. For your average event though, I just don't think it's worth it.
However, I'm running an anticombo sideboard, consisting of 4 Chalices and 2 Gaddock Teegs. I realize that, just like my argument for Crypt, that Chalice is only going to be relevant for 1 matchup (storm combo). However, and especially with the increasing popularity of Ad Nauseam, I think it's a necessary evil. Turn 1 Chalice for 0 almost always buys this deck enough time to win before the opponent can bounce it; without having to burn blockers or worry about creature removal, this deck easily has a turn 3-4 goldfish. Gaddock Teeg is also great against them; if they don't combo off before he comes down, I almost always kill the opponent before they can remove him. Being a clock as well as a disruption piece makes him useful, too. Between 6 combo hate cards, the pretty fast clock of this deck, and the opponent's ability to fizzle or get a slow draw (occassionally), I've found the combo matchup pretty solid in a 2/3 game set.
Also, I've decided to include 2 Smash to Smithereens and 2 Shattering Spree in my sideboard. Smash to Smithereens is really good at removing problematic artifacts; you're not even sacrificing your clock (burn) by adding it in. Simply drop 2 Incinerates, and voila. Even though I run 4 Krosan Grip, I run a 2/2 split of Smash and Spree because they are much more effective against problematic artifacts, namely Chalice. Shattering Spree answers Chalices and both 1 and 2, which is why I don't simply run 4 Smash to Smithereens. This is probably a meta call, but I hate running into Stompy decks like Dragon Stompy and getting shutout simply because the opponent drops a Chalice and a Blood Moon (cutting me off of green for Krosan Grip).
I'm rather disappointed to see that Wild Nacatl has only been considered by a few people, and that no one as of late has commented on my previous post about him. At any rate, I hope that my testing with the guy can at least transfer to a few other players willing to try it out. I really think this guy, along with Goyf of course (and Price of Progress, too, I suppose), breaks Goyf Sligh in half.
EDIT: After testing the Ichorid matchup more, I've decided that the matchup is about 50/50. I've decided to go back to Crypt's in the board. In testing against Counterbalance, I've only ever boarded in 3 Krosan Grips. Gaddock Teeg, playing on both my off colors, has been somewhat inconsistent to cast sometimes, so I've decided to drop him. I reconfigured my sideboard a little, and the following board I came up with is:
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Shattering Spree
3 Krosan Grip
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tormod's Crypt
Thoughts on that?
Last edited by Hanni; 11-08-2008 at 02:38 PM.
@ Hanni
The original idea of Goyf Sligh was to play lots of creatures, burn the most important opponent's creatures and blockers, throwing all the other burn at the opponent and winning with the creatures. Now, you ignored the goyf sligh gameplan and started creating a "new deck". A deck which looks like a mixture between burn and zoo. You got the zoo colors and more or less the burn strategy.
Allthough your gameplan might be faster and easier to play it looks like a burn deck with more creatures than it should have and a very dangerous mana base if you know what I mean.
I don't want to criticize your deck; actually I like the effort and testing you went into and like your idea of making the deck faster, but do not forget the gameplan. Goyf Sligh is a Sligh deck as the name says and it is not right to just play creatures for the early game, because it simply isn't enough. In goldfishing the original Goyf Sligh can win in turn 4 quite often - that's no problem. Playing against opponents is something waaayyyy different. They disrupt you, play their own threats and counter things and before you know it your in the mid- to lategame. Now, I don't want to topdeck one of those early game creatures. Oh, wait, you want to topdeck a burn spell and squander it targeting your opponent. Your topdeck mode isn't much better than ours - we play libraries.
Coming back to the creature debate, by the time your in the mid-game your opponent surely has either one or more mighty creatures, way bigger than your little weenies or at least equal (too bad you don't have mancer), or a Counterbalance and Top. Seriously, what the heck are you going to do against Counterbalance? And how in God's sake do you believe winning vs. Landstill, Fish, Team America or Dreadstill with just 3 Grips?? No Shusher, no Choke, no Pyroblast / Red Elemental Blast, not even a Vortex.
One good thing I like about your board are the Chalices. Definately faster than Pillar, but as effective? I'll test it and not only on MWS. In RL!!
Here are two major deckbuilding mistakes (for Goyf Sligh) I noticed:
1) white splash isn't profitable and I don't like that many nonbasics, especially 2 random plateaus attracting wastelands (I don't like singleton forests either, at least not with 4 Fireblasts...)
2) Not gameplan orientated; You want to survive the late-game, if you couldn't manage to kill in the early game
There are several reasons why many players don't want to include wild nacatl. First of all, white is the wrong color to splash. We want to build a consistent deck with red and a green splash. No more than 2 colors. Don't play 14 nonbasics just for 4 wild nacatl. Really, think about it. You said yourself that Price of Progress is THE burn spell in the aggro-control meta we're in right now.
Can your deck handle Goyfs, Tombstalkers, Doran and all the other big creatures and not to mention creatures with shroud? Goyf Sligh has creatures to deal with those and the proper burn spells to give them the rest. Not to mention Grim Lavamancer!! He is superb in dealing with critters, winning the goyf mirror and stretching your burn, so you still got burn spells to play when the game has advanced to later turns. Benefiting from the Lavamancer each turn lets him shine compared to Mogg Fanatic and I'm not the only one prefering Grim Lavamancer compared to Fanatic.
Figure of Destiny is not only a stable creature which lets you invest every bit of your mana, if you can't use it otherwise (just like lavamancer) but moreover, it's an awesome topdeck that turns your deck into a deck with a solid mid- and late-game!! That's what you need.
I'm too tired to write more right now. I just hope you don't mess with teh gameplan@!! Otherwise, create an extra thread for an extra deck. "a red, green, white zoo burn wannabe goyf sligh". maybe it'll hit Top 8s somewhere.
Last edited by Dr.AgOn; 11-08-2008 at 07:46 PM. Reason: some additions I needed to post.
I want a banana this big!
With the rise of Ad Naseum combo decks, is Pyrostatic Pillar ready to be a sideboard staple?
I'm becoming partial to Wild Nacatl, though I feel the need to add another land into the deck. Having a 3/3 on turn two is empowering. However, I'm still not convinced with Kird Ape. Grim Lavamancer isn't shining as much as I'd like, but I still like his ability to clear blockers or shoot my opponent better than Kird Ape.
Although Pyrostatic Pillar is a better card against storm combo than Chalice of the Void when it is in play, it can only come into play at the fastest turn two. As storm combo obtained Ad Nauseum, it is easier for them to get a turn one kill now, so playing chalice of the void at 0 that could come into play turn 1 and would do no damage to us but delay the storm player substantially by stopping about half of their mana sources, IMO, is better.
@ Dr.AgOn
The original idea? The original idea was to play a couple of early critters, push a little damage through with said creatures, and then finish the opponent off with burn. This plan did and does not need to include lots of creatures. How am I ignoring the gameplan? How is the decklist I presented a new deck?The original idea of Goyf Sligh was to play lots of creatures, burn the most important opponent's creatures and blockers, throwing all the other burn at the opponent and winning with the creatures. Now, you ignored the goyf sligh gameplan and started creating a "new deck".
A mixture between Burn and Zoo? Wtf do you think Goyf Sligh is?A deck which looks like a mixture between burn and zoo.
Zoo is not about color combinations, it's about running a weenie strategy with lots of creatures and a relative amount of burn. Zoo decks don't run 14 creatures.You got the zoo colors and more or less the burn strategy.
How is the manabase dangerous? I splash white for 1 card that doesn't even need white in play to function. Hell, the deck could easily drop a Plateau for another Mountain. Hell, the deck can even drop 1-2 Taiga's for 1-2 Mountain's. I almost never have manabase issues with the current configuration anyways, even in the face of extreme manabase hate.Allthough your gameplan might be faster and easier to play it looks like a burn deck with more creatures than it should have and a very dangerous mana base if you know what I mean.
I'm sorry to say it, but the deck should not be concerned about playing creatures beyond the early game (i.e mid-late). That defeats the entire functional design purpose of the archtype. I'm not saying that playing creatures in the mid-late is bad or wrong, but the deck has burn to carry it through the mid-late. That's how the deck has always functioned, even way back in the original Sligh era.Goyf Sligh is a Sligh deck as the name says and it is not right to just play creatures for the early game, because it simply isn't enough.
I never said that Goyf Sligh in previous builds couldn't goldfish turn 4. In fact, they have the ability to goldfish as early as turn 3. What I said was, making the decks fundamental goldfish faster is a step in the right direction. As the format evolves and gets new cards from new sets, the speed of the format tends to increase (bannings aside), and thusly increasing the fundamental goldfish of Goyf Sligh is a (slow) evolution of the archtype.In goldfishing the original Goyf Sligh can win in turn 4 quite often - that's no problem.
I never said the deck won't get to the mid-late against opponent's. What I said was, the creature aspect and portion of the deck should not be concerned with the mid-late.They disrupt you, play their own threats and counter things and before you know it your in the mid- to lategame.
Yea, I do want to topdeck a burn spell mid-late, because the goal is to get the opponent's life total down to 0. Since the opponent's life total should be low by then, a burn spell is exactly what I want to topdeck.Now, I don't want to topdeck one of those early game creatures. Oh, wait, you want to topdeck a burn spell and squander it targeting your opponent. Your topdeck mode isn't much better than ours - we play libraries.
Library is an irrelevant point, IMO. Not everyone plays Library, and I actually think the card is fairly bad here. I won't get into much discussion about Library though, since I have had little playtesting with it.
That's the whole point of switching from the early aggro plan to the burn plan, amirite? That's how Goyf Sligh operates, and I have absolutely no idea what you are getting at here.Coming back to the creature debate, by the time your in the mid-game your opponent surely has either one or more mighty creatures, way bigger than your little weenies or at least equal (too bad you don't have mancer), or a Counterbalance and Top.
How is my build any different than other builds against CounterTop? Obviously an active CounterTop is bad for my deck, but it's bad for Goyf Sligh in almost any configuration.Seriously, what the heck are you going to do against Counterbalance?
Are you serious right now? Barring Jitte out of Fish (which I have plenty of removal for), Fish is a joke matchup. Landstill is one of the easier matchups for this deck, are you seriously trying to tell me I need more than 3 Krosan Grips to beat Landstill? What the hell does Grip do against Team America? The only time Dreadstill is problematic is a turn 2 Dreadnought or a CounterTop lock, which this deck has answers to.And how in God's sake do you believe winning vs. Landstill, Fish, Team America or Dreadstill with just 3 Grips??
Shusher is a horrible answer to both Chalice and Counterbalance; it's easy to remove, and requires huge amounts of mana investment. Choke is a very good sideboard card but is probably metagame dependant, Pyroblast/REB are uncessary, and I think Vortex is horrible. It's a sideboard, most of the choices are metagame dependant anyway.No Shusher, no Choke, no Pyroblast / Red Elemental Blast, not even a Vortex.
So you assume it's not profitable, because you don't like that many nonbasics? It's not about what you like or don't like, it's about what works and doesn't work. 2 Plateau's doesn't make the deck scoop to Wasteland. 4 Fireblasts works with 1 basic Forest.Here are two major deckbuilding mistakes (for Goyf Sligh) I noticed:
1) white splash isn't profitable and I don't like that many nonbasics, especially 2 random plateaus attracting wastelands (I don't like singleton forests either, at least not with 4 Fireblasts... )
2) Not gameplan orientated; You want to survive the late-game, if you couldn't manage to kill in the early game
How in the hell is the deck not gameplan oriented? If I'm unable to kill my opponent in the early game, I want to kill my opponent in the mid game. If I'm making it to the late game, something went wrong. Designing the deck to survive the lategame is completely retarded.
Why? What justification makes this true? You can say it's wrong all you want, but you're not bringing up any actual reasoning for why running R/g is strictly better than R/G/w. Even if you claim manabase instability, I've already said several times that the instability caused by this is not significant enough, that the deck can still function fine through extreme manabase hate, and that Price of Progress is only mildly effected by the light white splash.There are several reasons why many players don't want to include wild nacatl. First of all, white is the wrong color to splash. We want to build a consistent deck with red and a green splash. No more than 2 colors. Don't play 14 nonbasics just for 4 wild nacatl.
I'm running 3 Price of Progress, what's your point?You said yourself that Price of Progress is THE burn spell in the aggro-control meta we're in right now.
Yea, I can. Most decks running big beats like that don't have a turn 4 clock, where I simply race them. I don't plan on pointing burn at their guys if their guys are big; I'll simply point burn to the opponent's dome and kill them before they kill me, simple enough. I still fail to see how that question is any different or more relevant for my deck than it is for Goyf Sligh as an archtype itself.Can your deck handle Goyfs, Tombstalkers, Doran and all the other big creatures and not to mention creatures with shroud?
I run Goyf, same as you. What creatures do you run that deal with 5/5's? Figure of Destiny, after you've invested 10 mana into it? Heh.Goyf Sligh has creatures to deal with those and the proper burn spells to give them the rest.
Proper burn? I'm running a pretty similar burn suite; but since you're running proper burn and I'm not, could you explain what the proper burn spells that I should be playing are?
We can agree to disagree on this one. I think Mogg Fanatic is better than Grim Lavamancer.Not to mention Grim Lavamancer!! He is superb in dealing with critters, winning the goyf mirror and stretching your burn, so you still got burn spells to play when the game has advanced to later turns. Benefiting from the Lavamancer each turn lets him shine compared to Mogg Fanatic and I'm not the only one prefering Grim Lavamancer compared to Fanatic.
However, I'm not going to disagree with Grim Lavamancer, either. Grim Lavamancer has pros and cons to it, and I've been playtesting them in replacement to Kird Ape in my build. In some games, they are far superior than the Ape; in other games, I'd rather have had the Ape. Currently, I'm actually siding with Grim Lavamancer, as I've had him win several games for me now that I wouldn't have won without him.
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
That's the current configuration I'm playtesting right now.
Figure of Destiny is complete and utter crap. I do not consider Grizzly Bears as stable. Just because it will occasionally have extra mana sources to pump it is not a valid enough argument for the card; it asks that you invest important mana sources into it to make it mediocre in a deck that wants to constantly curve out playing other spells. How is it an awesome topdeck in the mid-late game? You need to invest, at minimum, 5 mana for it to be relevant, and even then, you have to hope that the opponent doesn't have creature removal, bigger guys in play, chump blockers, etc. Burn is far better as a topdeck, and FoD is a horrible early game critter.Figure of Destiny is not only a stable creature which lets you invest every bit of your mana, if you can't use it otherwise (just like lavamancer) but moreover, it's an awesome topdeck that turns your deck into a deck with a solid mid- and late-game!! That's what you need.
What's even funnier, is when you invest 3 mana into FoD, only to have the opponent response into a removal spell. That is a huge tempo sink in a deck that cannot afford such a loss.
Figure of Destiny is not what Goyf Sligh needs. In theory the card is bad, in playtesting the card is bad. Others disagree with me and Top 8's right now seem to prove me wrong. If people like playing a few bad cards in a good deck, and win with said good deck running a few bad cards, then whatever works I guess.
Or, I can post the deck in the Goyf Sligh thread, where it belongs.'m too tired to write more right now. I just hope you don't mess with teh gameplan@!! Otherwise, create an extra thread for an extra deck. "a red, green, white zoo burn wannabe goyf sligh". maybe it'll hit Top 8s somewhere.
@ Hoojo
The biggest problem I've always had with Pyrostatic Pillar is the 2cc mana cost. While it will most likely do far more damage for its manacost than every other burn spell in your deck, the opposing combo player can still play through it (IGG specifically). Chalice can be dropped for 0 mana, not affecting the rest of your gameplan at all, and is pretty much a must-answer card for the opponent to combo off. However, while I'd strongly recommend Chalice over Pyrostatic Pillar, both options are valid.With the rise of Ad Naseum combo decks, is Pyrostatic Pillar ready to be a sideboard staple?
I actually decided to test 2 Grim Lavamancers in the 2 Kird Ape spots and I have to agree with you. I'm finding Grim Lavamancer to be more useful for me.I'm becoming partial to Wild Nacatl, though I feel the need to add another land into the deck. Having a 3/3 on turn two is empowering. However, I'm still not convinced with Kird Ape. Grim Lavamancer isn't shining as much as I'd like, but I still like his ability to clear blockers or shoot my opponent better than Kird Ape.
I'm also glad that you've decided to try Wild Nacatl.
EDIT: Sorry PR, edited for harshness (i.e, removed most of the d-baggery I had in the post).
Last edited by Hanni; 11-14-2008 at 01:18 PM.
Personally, I would play Chant over Chalice as my anti-combo card. They both work on the play, but Chant ups the odds of ending the game on turn 2. With Chalice, they know exactly what they are up against. Chant allows you to let them kill themselves essentially. With this deck it is also not a tell to just play a fetch and pass the turn, they will assume bolt. Sure, you may not get the early turn win if they don't cast AdN, but there are several hands they can win on turn 1-2 with without 0 cost cards and without AdN. Chant stops these whereas Chalice does nothing. Any ritual effect also turns Chant into a Time Walking shock/bolt/fireblast +.
EPIC Syndicate
-My hero
-I don't think this one was a joke...
You are saying many wrong things about FoD:
- I do not consider Grizzly Bears as stable
It is not comparable with Grizzly Bears. Grizzly Bears can attack for 2 on turn 3, FoD can do it on Turn 2 (not that pumping it on turn 2 is the best play the deck has but it is a solid option).
- it asks that you invest important mana sources into it to make it mediocre in a deck that wants to constantly curve out playing other spells.
Isn't it rather that when you have gas in hand you play the spells and when you don't have it then you can pump FoD? Doesn't FoD rather help there to curve out? And with a 2/2 FoD and 3 Mana open you can also just easily attack into a 3/4 Goyf or a Threshed Goose open and then decide to not pump it to build up your board after combat. With Kird Ape / Grizzly Bears you cannot attack in that situation.
- Burn is far better as a topdeck, and FoD is a horrible early game critter.
FoD is not horrible in early game, it is ok there. It is also solid in mid game and a decent topdeck. Of course Nacatl/Kird Ape are better on turn 1 and a Fireblast is a better topdeck but overall FoD is a flexible and solid creature for Zoo.
I agree that FoD is a flexible and solid creature for Zoo. This is not Zoo, it's Goyf Sligh.FoD is a flexible and solid creature for Zoo
Regardless, the power to cost ratio of FoD is horrible, and by the time it does anything significant, you could have just as easily won the game with better creatures/burn.
I split in the finals with a 6-1 record in a 31 person tournament in my area over the weekend with the following list:
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast
2 Rancor
2 Krosan Grip
1 Forest
6 Mountain
4 Taiga
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothill
1 Windswept Heath
Sideboard
2 Choke
1 Krosan Grip
1 Shattering Spree
2 Pyrokinesis
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Pithing Needle
Along the way I defeated Painter Grindstone, Meathooks, Dredge, Rock, AggroLoam, and 4 Color Landstill. The maindeck is pretty solid with the exception of Rancors which were boarded out nearly every game. I would also consider cutting one Mogg Fanatic from the main if I could find something else more suitable. I was very happy with 19 land, despite many playing only 18.
The sideboard needs work. The only cards that I am convinced should stay in are Pillar, Grip, Spree, and Shusher in some numbers (at least in my metagame). I think the rest are debatable.
And, for what its worth, Figure of Destiny was my best one drop all day.
How often did he get larger than 2/2? The main issue I've been having with Figure of Destiny is getting him larger than other creatures I could run in his spot without the mana investment. The main reason I've been running Wild Nacatl is strictly that; Wild Nacatl can become a 3/3 at the cost of, while Figure of Destiny can become 4/4 at the cost of
. Mostly, he is a 2/2 for
I've been running a more burn oriented build with 3x Figure of Destiny over 3x Grim Lavamancers and I've never really had the mana to beef them up without it being win-more. Particularly with 3 or more Fireblasts in the deck.
How were the Tin-Street Hooligans? I remember that back in Standard it was that when Hooligans were hitting a Signet the game was won, always. I can imagine that they have a similar effect when hitting a Vial, a Mox or a Dreadnought. However, there are a lot of decks without targets (the majority in the DTB Forum) and you already MD Krosan Grip. And without Rancor you also don't need that many creatures.
How about Magma Jet in Rancor's place? Imo Magma Jet is one of the best cards for Goyf Sligh .
I should preface my response with the fact that my metagame is made up largely of control decks, with a heavy emphasis on cards such as Engineered Explosives and P Deed. Having said that, the reason I like Figure, is because I can force an opponent to blow an EE without having to overcommit my board position. With my build, I would shy away from Wild Nacatl based on the fact that I like to run 4 Price of Progress main. Thus, I did not make a conscious decision to run Figure over Wild, as Wild was not in the picture.How often did he get larger than 2/2? The main issue I've been having with Figure of Destiny is getting him larger than other creatures I could run in his spot without the mana investment. The main reason I've been running Wild Nacatl is strictly that; Wild Nacatl can become a 3/3 at the cost of
I've been running a more burn oriented build with 3x Figure of Destiny over 3x Grim Lavamancers and I've never really had the mana to beef them up without it being win-more. Particularly with 3 or more Fireblasts in the deck.
Price of Progress single handedly won me at least two games I had no business winning. Against decks like AggroLoam, Price can easily hit for 10, and almost always for 6 even if they are playing around it. Resolving a Price is another reason I like Shusher in the board. Opponents know that an uncounterable Price can be game, and will go to great lengths to kill Shusher because of it.
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