@ I assume that running Disk implies running Foil as well, doesn't it?
In order to drop it on turn 4 (The earliest, without crappy cards like Chrome Mox - which I don't recommend to use at this point!), you really have to protect it. Every counterspell (even Cryptic Command, a very clunky card outside of Solidarity).
Therefore you have to run Foil again.
A very important point of Powder Keg is that you are able to drop it before the Landstill player is able to cast Standstill.
On a sidenote: Powder Keg and Call the Skybreaker don't work together very well in the Landstill MU. With Nevy's Disk as the only boardsweeper, you really have to run Rainbow Efreet as the third finisher (for obvious reasons).
Since the disk is way more powerful than Powder Keg, you imo don't have to run the full playset.
// NAME: [TMT] Kleiner Hai, by Nils Müller
// Lands
25 [ALA] Island (1)
// Creatures
2 [US] Morphling
1 [VI] Rainbow Efreet
// Spells
4 [B] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [PY] Foil
4 [US] Back to Basics
4 [TE] Propaganda
3 [5E] Nevinyrral's Disk
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [TSP] Ancestral Vision
4 [IN] Fact or Fiction
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [6E] Chill
SB: 4 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 [LRW] Jace Beleren
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
btw: Is TES still using EtW? Do we still have to fight tokens?
Or you could run more Disks because it's really powerful.
I generally prefer to have more powerful cards than less.
This would also mitigate the argument that you should run terrible cards to protect good ones, which I confess I didn't really understand to begin with.
Disk still seems better than Keg against Standstill since it can potentially remove the Standstill + threat and let you cast spells again without handing them massive card advantage.
I'm also not sure why CtS, which is essentially uncounterable, is worse against a counter-based deck than Efreet and Morphling, which aren't, and which are only half Wrath-proof.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
@ Jason
1.) I don't have Wasteland for opposing Factories.I was curious; since you are running Factory, what is your reasoning behind not running Standstill? It seems better than Impulse, no?
2.) Standstill isn't an instant, and draw/go requires that mana to be open.
3.) Standstill doesn't guarantee that I dig right now. Draw/go needs to dig immediately.
4.) Draw/go isn't in the aggro-role early enough to play standstill. It plays card-draw in this slot to go find an answer.
@ Kadaj
Disk is viable if you play Draw/go. 16 counters and 2-3 bounce slots generate at least 1 more turn of tempo than your list Kadaj. Living to play and having the resources to protect Disk is not as difficult to accomplish if you play honest to goodness draw/go as opposed to the strategies of other variants.The primary reason I don't like Disk is simply that it's too slow and too vulnerable
@ TheInfamousBearAssassin
Not playing FoF is like not playing FoW in the deck. There is no substitution. I can guarantee it is always a mistake to play less than 4 FoF's in MUC, regardless of the build. Part of stabilizing is having relevant card advantage, and that sometimes can only occur through chaining FoF's.The draw suite is debatable, but my current selection lets me dig early on and then provides a lot of draw late game when I'm swimming in mana and don't really care anymore. FoF sits in my hand early on when I'm trying to dig into Shackles or Disk and don't yet care as much about card advantage.
As I said for digging in the early game, Brainstorm or Impulse are the only options to consider for Draw/go. Both dig deeper than anything other instant available. Additionally, Brainstorm's card quality effects, alongside a shuffle, is at its best in this deck. No other deck in Legacy can generate what is practically raw card advantage from Brainstorm like Draw/go. Test it.
Amen.But I certainly can't agree with Keg over Disk....Conversely, I don't know if you really want sacrifice in the activation cost of your answer to a deck that runs 6+ Stifle effects.
1.) Run your 4th spell snare if you are that concerned. Also, Consider Forbid or Mana leak instead.2cc is the most common CC in Legacy. You can use Spell Burst to counter 2cc turns at turn 3, at turn 6 with buyback.
2.) As with most buyback cards, you shouldn't be running more than 1 of each. The 2nd Spell Burst has serious diminishing returns.
3.) Spellburst is weaker in the early game than the alternatives, and while your counters are already very strong in the late game where you are chaining FoF's, you need permission that is more potent and viable in the early game.
CtS is an interesting card (which I'm still testing). I'll admit, it has some serious strengths. Recursion is powerful. Problems I have with the card:I'm also not sure why CtS, which is essentially uncounterable, is worse against a counter-based deck than Efreet and Morphling, which aren't, and which are only half Wrath-proof.
1.) It is extremely mana intensive, even for a deck that generates tons of mana by living for 20 turns, and it comes down a bit later.
2.) You need that mana even after you resolve your threat because you'll still need to generate card advantage and have plenty of permission available. Continually recasting this card does hinder your role change because you aren't as effectively able to leverage your card advantage.
3.) MUC is on a clock, and with 50-minutes, sometimes you are forced to bum-rush, and this card doesn't do that as effectively as your other options. This is connected with (1) as well.
4.) Efreet, Morphling, and especially Meloku (which I know you didn't include) provide yet another element of board control at a much earlier stage of the game. I know you play 4x Shackles/4x Disks/2x Bounce, but even with that there will be times where a creature-based solution is just as powerful and necessary.
5.) Call the Skybreaker recursion is card disadvantage. This seems ridiculous, but it still matters. This becomes even more important when you play brainstorm.
peace,
4eak
I've heard that before. Where was it.... Ah wait, it was here:Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...&postcount=456
Some random thoughts to that:
3 Call the Skybreaker: 3 CTS as your only win condition is not good. UWb Landstill will just have to resolve 1 Cunning Wish through the entire game and you can't win from then on. So maybe you could play 2 CTS / 1 Morphling or vice versa.
No Fact or Fiction: I agree with you. I usually don't run Fact, too. However, Whispers of the Muse's BB cost is so high that you will probably only use it in 1/5 games. So a 4-off is too much. Maybe you could try something like 2 Jace Beleren / 2 Whispers. Jace sounds like a good alternative. He will even survive a disk and be an alternate win condition against Landstill / Slow Control.
Another option is a draw engine I've developed a while ago in my MUC: 3-4 Think Twice, 4 Accumulated Knowledge, 2 Intuition. AK/ TT have a pretty strong late game impact while cycling on turn 2. Intuition on AK is well known as a broken Draw7 and Intuition for 3 Think Twice is uncounterable Draw 4 against other control decks. Intuition could of course always also tutor for solutions and in this deck you can even play Intuition on "Call the Skybreaker, Think Twice, Think Twice" or "CTS, Land, Land" (which will allow you to reduce the number of CTS).
@Tao
Do u have a list? It sounds quite interesting.
Whats about Dominate? I tested a bit and its quite funny the steal opponets dreadnoughts or Tarmos...
So this is completely untested in combination. But I think IBA did some testing with his list and the draw engine works, too. Based on IBA's list from last page it could look something like that:
- 4 Whispers of the Muse
- 2 Call the Skybreaker
- 2 Spell Burst
- 1 Think Twice
+ 4 Accumulated Knowledge
+ 2 Intuition
+ 2 Jace Beleren
+ 1 Capsize
Dominate is interesting. Instant Status and pretty sick against LS Manlands. But against Tombstalker or Chalice Stompy Critters I'd prefer Control magic.
Jack, either I misrepresented my opinions or you misread them. I'm not saying you should've won by turn 10 with MUC, I'm saying you shouldn't need Spell Burst to put yourself in a position to win at that point in the game. The entire point of playing a control deck (as you have said yourself in the past) is to have a dominating mid to late game. By playing cards like Disk, Shackles, B2B, FoF, and whatnot, you give yourself that strength, removing the need for Spell Burst.
I'm also saying that Spell Burst is garbage in the early game, which it is. You want to pay 3 mana to counter a Tarmogoyf on turn 3, only to have it Dazed? Sounds like a great plan to me. Try the same thing on turn 6 with buyback to the same result. Clearly there's a double standard here, as you're assuming all of your counterspells will be used in a vacuum, when they never are.
If we operate under the assumption that 16 counterspells, 3 of which cannot stop Dreadstill from resolving Dreadnaught (Spell Snare), 6 of which require you to tap out and open yourself to Daze AND Spell Snare (Spell Burst and Counterspell), and 3 more of which that are very easy to play around (Force Spike), are not enough to guarantee that Dreadstill will never manage to resolve an early Dreadnaught than you have clearly never tested the matchup. I really don't care if you have some irrational hatred for the deck, that's fine so do I, but don't malign its potential for quick wins because you don't like it.
Beyond that, the assumption that your counterspells will be good is only correct when you don't play ones that suck, like Spell Burst, are narrow in application, like Force Spike, and aren't relevant to the matchup at hand (Dreadstill), like Spell Snare.
I can tell by your comments that you have either never tested against Goblins with your build, or tested improperly, because literally nothing you've said jives with any of the previous conclusions reached about the Goblins matchup with builds very similar to yours.
As far as it being well documented that Disk is too slow against Goblins, I refer you to the old discussions about Disk in Landstill. Yes, Wasteland isn't applicable against us like it was against Landstill, but Port still is, and 4 mana is a lot when the main Goblins will actually beat you is in the midgame. Your deck simply does not have the midgame staying power to actually hold whatever early-game advantage your cavalcade of counterspells managed to gain. You might have a clear board on turn 5, but given that you will likely have had to invest at least a Disk and a counterspell, if not more, how likely is it that you will then have the resources to stop the Goblins player from reloading with a Ringleader or a SCG? I'm speaking from experience with these scenarios, having tested several very similar builds in the past and run into a wall with that matchup.
Frankly, I don't have the patience to argue that you should be including FoF and B2B. The reasons for playing the aforementioned cards have been stated ad nauseum in this thread, and if you don't agree with them than that's your prerogative. Just don't be surprised that I don't lend regurgitated arguments from months ago any credence, no matter who they're coming from.
It is true that I have not tested this build against Goblins. What is true is that I have played hundreds, if not thousands, really, of games against Vial-Goblins, and I have played hundreds of games as Vial Goblins. The deck and I are on intimate turns. I am intimately familiar with both the strengths and vulnerabilities of the deck. I wonder if your limited tested is more warping than mine.
Simply put, succeeding with control at some level requires balls. You will not win with control if your opponents continually get God hands. Your best hands, especially when you're mulliganing blind against an unknown deck, tend to look a lot weaker than the god-hands of aggressive decks. This is the nature of the beast.
If Dreadstill resolves a turn 2 Dreadnaught-Stifle with Force-Daze backup and followed it up with Standstill, you're just probably going to lose. It happens.
It's not about respect or lack thereof for Dreadstill or Goblins in particular, or what have you. It's about respecting the law of averages.
I also find there to be an interesting confluence between your assertion that Spell Burst sucks, your lack of an assertion of the same for Counterspell, and your belief that the format is dominated by 1cc spells thus making Powder Keg better than Disk.
At any rate, Kadaj, I would appreciate it if you could return to actual arguments instead of dismissing them out of hand because you've "played MUC a lot".
The vulnerability of CtS against Wish-Still is a valid point. But the question is if counterable and wrathable creatures really bring much to that matchup. A better alternate kill that Morphling here to consider would be running your own Cunning Wish to fetch Brain Freeze, which is actually quite an excellent kill condition in the control mirror, in my experience. It's not too hard knock 21-24 cards off the top of their deck late game. That would also allow moving the late game spells of Spell Burst and Capsize to the board, and possibly free up room for Repeal or some such maindeck, or fit in the B2Bs easier. The decision to run B2B or not, however, should be metagame based; it's a bit silly to talk about this card or that being bad against Dreadstill and Goblins and then maindecking B2B, which is often little better than Stone Rain in these matchups.
While I don't deny that Fact or Fiction is good, very good, there's again the problem with it's mana curve being terrible when leaning on Disk.
Thirst for Knowledge would be better as a replacement for Whispers of the Muse, although both are certainly better than Brainstorm in this deck. TfK is a thought, though.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
IBA and I have quite similar opinions about possible approaches to a different MUC shell: I don't play FoF, I think Call the Skybreaker is great in a hardcore control shell, I moved B2B to the SB in my last list, I like "4 Shackles" and Nevi Disk sounds interesting. So I'll try to defend him (I don't agree with him about Spell Burst, though):
We all know that MUC's matchup against Goblins is horrible but that does not change anything about his statement that Disk is good against Goblins. The matchup may be bad, but if you want to have a chance against them then Disk seems like a good option. Resetting the board with Mana open gives you a solid starting point. And playing one of his 4 Shackles seems like a logical continuation. Of course this only works unless Goblins has not killed you so far but that is exactly what IBA said.
Now you serve me my point on a golden plate: My suggested changes were adding 2 Jace Beleren to your list. He's immune to pretty much everything, too and also easily knocks 20 cards off the top of their deck ;)
Hmmm. It could easily fit within the 4x slot freed up by Whispers, I suppose. Sorcery speed, though.
Tezzeret is another option as a late game kill that can also grab your control elements, or Crypts post-board. Slow, though.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Amusingly enough, I actually think Counterspell is rather weak these days. Especially on the draw. The card looks great on paper, but it tends to be terrible in a format that is, undoubtedly, dominated by things that cost as much or less as CS. To an extent, I think Counterspell is weak by some standards, and were it not the most flexible, and powerful, potential card for that slot, I would've replaced it. Sadly, there is no better option available, and so we are essentially stuck with it.
At any rate, I don't necessarily think Powder Keg is better than Disk. I'm actually open to debate on that point at the moment, at least in terms of an open metagame. The major reasons I do think Keg is at the very least more flexible is because it is faster at dealing with the following: Man-lands, Phyrexian Dreadnaught, and Nimble Mongoose. If you can provide a valid reason why the aformentioned point is either irrelevant or lacking in terms of why one should play Powder Keg over Disk, I'd be glad to hear it (seriously, not sarcastically).
Limited testing against Goblins would be valid were it not for the fact that I have played hundreds of games against Goblins myself. Eldariel can attest to that, considering he was the Goblins player for a large amount of those games during the fledgling stages of my testing (and beyond). I have not, I admit, been on the Goblins side of the equation much, but I do think I have a fair idea of how the deck beats control, largely because I have lost to it quite a bit over the years.
The assertion I was trying to make with the example of early Phyrexian Dreadnaught was simply that it is a problem you are going to deal with at least once, possible more, over the course of a tournament, and not having a strong plan to deal with it is just foolish. Perhaps I am wrong, but I don't believe that a Dreadnaught before turn 4 is rare from Dreadstill, at least in my experience. And given their large amount of Stifle-effects, turn 4 Disk just doesn't seem fast enough to me as a plan B if counterspells fail, which they inevitably will sometimes.
And, as you asked, I will return to arguments rather than dismissing them out of hand. You should play Fact or Fiction because, as you put it when you replied to someone arguing you could play less Disks because they were powerful, you should play more powerful cards because they are powerful. You don't have to play FoF on turn 4 every time for it to be good. In fact, I would assert that you will rarely actually play Fact on turn 4, given that you will almost always have a threat to counter, or whatever might arise at that point. That doesn't make the card weaker, it just means you have to be flexible with using it. And what about the times when you don't have a Disk? Fact is much much better than Whispers of the Muse is at digging, and it can provide CA at a much larger, and less expensive, clip.
As far as B2B goes, I simply believe the advantage it affords against decks like Landstill, Threshold, the Rock, Survival, and the like, is so great, that it outweighs whatever weakness it has against combo, Ichorid, etc. Perhaps it belongs in the SB if you expect more decks that are largley immune to B2B than not, but I haven't yet encountered a metagame where more than half of the decks present were vulnerable to the card.
I played against IBA's list last night on MWS and having really liked it I made some changes to the list as suggested by Tao. Ran smoothly for me. Lemme know what ya'll think. Also repeal fixes a lot of problems: Dreadnought, vial, needle....
/ Lands
24 [10E] Island (3)
// Creatures
2 [US] Morphling
// Spells
1 [EVE] Call the Skybreaker
4 [U] Nevinyrral's Disk
4 [NE] Accumulated Knowledge
3 [TSP] Think Twice
2 [TE] Intuition
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [IA] Counterspell
3 [GP] Repeal
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [FNM] Force Spike
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [MOR] Negate
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
With 24 lands, how do you really make Call the Skybreaker worthwhile, that is, retracing Call? Not to mention, 24 lands is a little short for MUC, considering you run Disk and Shackles, and Call the Skybreaker.
Just curious, for those of you using Call the Skybreaker, how often do you use Retrace? I'm not counting normal-casting Call the Skybreaker.
I guess I'm still puzzled as to why you would need CtS if your deck does what it's supposed to do. I mean, are people seriously walking into common situations where Morphling/Rainbow Efreet can't get it done?
So, I just got back from The Mana Leak Open, where I finished 14th at 4-2. I was in position to make Top 8 with a win in the last round, but I lost what should've been a fairly positive matchup.
I ended up running the following list:
X4 Force of Will
X4 Counterspell
X2 Chalice of the Void
X4 Back to Basics
X4 Powder Keg
X2 Vedalken Shackles
X4 Sower of Temptation
X4 Fact or Fiction
X4 Think Twice
X2 Morphling
X1 Call The Skybreaker
X25 Islands
SB:
X4 Propaganda
X4 Blue Elemental Blast
X2 Threads of Disloyalty
X2 Chalice of the Void
X2 Jace Beleren
X1 Vedalken Shackles
Basically, I took every idea I thought was good from this thread and shoved it into one deck, with the metagame I expected in consideration. Basically, I figured there'd be a lot of Counterbalance, and a lot of Dreadstill. For the most part, I was right on both counts, and the inclusion of Sower over Propaganda in the main, plus Chalice over whatever random counterspell I might've played there, really helped me in my games against Dreadstill, Painter, and Dragon Stompy. Do I recommend the above list in a general metagame? Not really. Chalice isn't good if you don't expect 9001 Dreadstill lists to show up, and Think Twice is iffy in that slot, but I'll explain why I'm leaning towards it at the end of my post.
A quick rundown of my tournament:
Round 1 against TrialByFire playing Ichorid
I lose 0-2, never had a chance in game 1 and misplayed savagely in game 2.
Round 2 against Tom playing UB Painter's Grindstone
I win 2-1, Sower steals Trinket Mage and counters never let him get into it game 1. Game 2 he combos out with protection and I had a weak hand. Game 3 was essentially a repeat of game 1.
Round 3 against a different Tom playing UGW Dreadstill
I win 2-1. Game 1 I manage to deal with Goyf, but he eventually gets down a Dreadnaught and I can't find an answer in time. Game 2 I steal a Goyf with Sower and get Chalice down for 1, shutting him out of the game. Game 3 I have early B2B and he never had a chance.
Round 4 against Parcher playing Ichorid
I win 2-1. Game 1 Ichorid does what its supposed to and shits on me. Games 2 and 3 Parcher mulls to oblivion and I have Propaganda+Counters to hold on for the unlikely win.
Round 5 against DJ playing Dragon Stompy
I win 2-0. Sower+Shackles steal his creatures in game 1, game 2 BEB comes in and makes a good situation even better for me.
Round 6 against Carl Dilihay playing Team America in a feature match (!!!)
I lose 2-1. Game 1 I do what I should and lock him out with B2B and Chalice. Games 2 and 3 I draw too many lands and not enough gas to hold off his Goyf. Still, Carl played well and deserved to win, so no hard feelings.
Basically, 4-2 seems like the appropriate record given the matchups and my overall play. I almost definitely should've lost to Parcher, but by the same token I felt like I should've beaten Carl in round 6. Poor play on my part cost me a chance in round 1, and I'm sure I didn't play optimally against Carl either.
As far as specific card choices go, Think Twice seems better than Ancestral Vision in a metagame full of Counterbalance and Stifle effects. While AV can be strong even with the aforementioned problems, Think Twice is better off the top and will resolve more consistently, something really important out of that slot. Call the Skybreaker was completely irrelevant over the course of the day, and almost definitely should've been something else. 7 mana is a shitload, and I really don't know if it has a place in this deck given just how ludicrously mana intensive it is.
So yeah, if you expect a lot of Thresh and Dreadstill, I highly recommend this list. The SB was surprisingly strong, I boarded in every card at least once, but I think there needs to be some kind of insurance against decks like Team America, just because of how ubiquitous they are, and how important it is to be able to win against them.
Strange decklist, it really is as you said, crammed anything and everything into one deck and rolled with it.
Question re: Think Twice being superior in a Dreadstill/Thresh meta. Wouldn't Impulse be better in that slot? It seems to me you're going to be digging for answers ASAP versus a 12/12 trampler, and Impulse will allow you to do so, whereas Think Twice gives you actual card advantage, albeit over two turns, but it doesn't really increase your chances of getting the immediate answer in hand.
The sixth round was vs Thresh Nick. Not Team America. At least that is what i thought, since i saw a Mongoose and not a tombstalker.
I really have no clue why you tried Call of the sky breaker. You expected a fast meta game and that card can't really help i think.
How did you like the Sower?
What would be a list for a "fast" and aggro&aggrocontrol meta? (goblins+some dredge+storm+thresh+random aggro+few control decks)
btw. the list looks a bit strange. why are you run so many islands?
You might have noticed the 11 cantrips. Up until know I've had more trouble getting flooded in the lategame than not drawing enough land.
Yeah, I doubt you need CtS when you also have Sowers. CtS was always meant as insurance, to make sure you have inevitability and are able to kill them. If they counter it, cast it again. If they kill it, cast it again. It really sucks to make it to the late game and then have to spend all your hard counters on the up-till-then dead removal your opponent had been building up in their hand.
Sowers are going to draw that removal out sooner, end the game earlier, and also serve as functional win conditions even if there's nothing to steal, so they pretty thoroughly obviate the need for that.
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
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