[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

[Mister Agent]

Actually Bardo's current Landstill list reminds me more of MUC except with a aggro-control shell built in. Seems pretty solid though Bardo. One question I have to ask is do you miss pernicious deed much in your newest list?

However, I could see the justification since cards like fact or fiction, tarmogoyf and counterbalance actually can make up for the lack of consistency in the removal department. I also think cards like vedalken shackles or control magic could actually be strong in the deck.

[mossivo1986]

I can't see the justifaction to play landstill and play countertop. It just doesnt make ANY sense to me why you would play a combo aggro killer in a deck that already does that well. Explain.

[Serbitar]

While Landstill's aggro-control/aggro matchup is certainly fantastic, I find its combo matchups rather shaky. A deck like TES or AdN-Tendrils combos around turn two, often protected, leaving you only with Force (if proctected, without anything).
Counterbalance does become online the same turn as C-Spell, but comboing through Balance will usually be rough, while comboing through C-Spell is not.

[Still, I'm no fan of CB in Landstill-]

[Bardo]

I really like your list, Bardo.

However, with it's color combination and the inclusion of Goyfs it looks quite similar to ITF. The difference is within about 8-10 cards, namely Standstills, FoF, Manlands and the lack of Deeds. I wonder whether this was done intentionally?

The list above is an evolution of the Landstill decks I was writing about in this article -- basically shuffling the best parts of both lists together.

As for black, I really wanted to play 4x Planar Void and some Engineered Plagues in the sideboard. Mainly I'm tuning the deck for the GP Columbus meta and Goblins (possibly Elves too, but mainly Goblins) are going to be out in force. You can't expect the GP meta to resemble our own in-bred

Actually Bardo's current Landstill list reminds me more of MUC except with a aggro-control shell built in. Seems pretty solid though Bardo. One question I have to ask is do you miss pernicious deed much in your newest list?

You can certainly go -3 EE, +3 Deed, but I was trying to keep the mana as consistent as possible, focusing just on UWG in the main. If your mana is under any kind of pressure, or you just get a bad land draw, you won't always hit UU for CBalance/CSpell, W for StP, G for Goyf and BG for Deed when you want it, especially when you're also running Factories/Wasteland/Monastery. But you're certainly welcome to experiment. I just got done playing a few matches vs. Affinity and would have much preferred Deed.

However, I could see the justification since cards like fact or fiction, tarmogoyf and counterbalance actually can make up for the lack of consistency in the removal department. I also think cards like vedalken shackles or control magic could actually be strong in the deck.

Man, I love Shackles, but 3+2 is a lot of mana. Testing vs. fast RGW Aggro this weekend, they're way too slow. Vs. Tombstalker, 5 Islands is a lot to ask for; it's a huge mana sink, is vulnerable to all of the Grips people are brining in.

Don't get me wrong, it's a 3 for CB which is important and when it gets online, it can dominate the board. Mainly in recent testing (<2 weeks) it suffers for lack of speed in the match-ups where you want it, and lack of relevance against a lot of other match-ups.

I can't see the justifaction to play landstill and play countertop. It just doesnt make ANY sense to me why you would play a combo aggro killer in a deck that already does that well. Explain.

As I mentioned above (though briefly), Counterbalance adds some plating to the spots in Landstill's armor where it's vulnerable: fast aggro, burn and combo. Wrath/Deed are often too slow against the better-build aggro decks. By the time you've stabilized the board, you're already in burn-out range; burn-decks has always been rough (CB owns Burn); and the newer combo decks (mainly, those running Ad Nauseam) can just tendrils you into oblivion while you hold a pile of worthless spells. CB helps turn these matches around; while turning your positive match-ups into near-byes. Even in the mirror, it doesn't suck.

As for Divining Top, hell, you could throw that into Landstill with no other justification. It's very powerful all on its own.

[Hanni]

I can't see the justifaction to play landstill and play countertop. It just doesnt make ANY sense to me why you would play a combo aggro killer in a deck that already does that well. Explain.

I can't see the justification for NOT playing CounterTop in Landstill. It improves nearly every matchup, especially matchups that were once very problematic like Bardo mentioned (Burn, Goyf Sligh, Aggro Loam, etc etc). Counterbalance isn't a combo aggro killer, it's an everything killer. The only decks that are unaffected are Stompy decks and other decks that operate on mainly 3cc spells, or other akward cc's that this deck cannot answer with Counterbalance.

This deck almost always assembles CounterTop at some point in the game, since the games (almost) always go late, and the deck has a ton of filter and draw. CounterTop not only has the potential to lock out the opponent, it creates huge gaps in card advantage once online.

Top itself is almost as good as Standstill. It increases the chances that you draw what you need when you need it by such a huge margin. Top deserves to be in most control decks, and if you're running blue and running Top, there's little reason to not tweak the deck to fit Counterbalance.

I'm not really going to get into too much more detail. I'd rather just play CounterTop because I know it's rediculously good, rather than get into a debate about why you should play it.

[aldaryn]

For whoever said Counterbalance is faster than Wrath/Deed, I can definitely see that for Deed but it is not that much "faster" than Wrath. You require about 4 mana total (granted, you can do it over a few turns) to counter ONE spell with Counterbalance, which is the same cost as Wrath blowing everything up. But it's still kind of irrelevant since you can't really compare "speed" of a card that locks out future plays to a card that deals with cards already played. The functions are entirely different.

I can't see the justification for playing Counterbalance and Deed in the same lists. Do you only deed away 1-drops? Plus you have to waste time replaying Top, though that's not as important of a point.

[Mister Agent]

I can't see the justifaction to play landstill and play countertop. It just doesnt make ANY sense to me why you would play a combo aggro killer in a deck that already does that well. Explain.

Well it actually takes a different mentality to play Bardo's Landstill correctly compared to something like Cunning Landstill. I happen to like Counterbalance in Landstill since it makes the archetype considerably more interactive then before which is a step in the right direction in my opinion.

Tarmogoyf combined with Counterbalance just steals a ridiculous amount of games on it's own and the lethal combination becomes more prominent with the inclusion of Standstill and Manlands.

[rockout]

Has anyone found a list that can fully support running Humility and the Counter-top engine along with Wrath of God and Elspeth? I am thoroughly convinced that Humility is a thrashing to almost any deck it resolves against, besides the obvious Tendril decks running rampant. If so, you can either PM me or post it here. I'd love to try it. If not, I will work on it in the next few days and post what I think.

[Enigma]

I would try something like this:


// Lands
3 Plains
4 Tundra
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
1 Academy Ruins
4 Island
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
1 Dust Bowl
1 Tolaria West

// Creatures
1 Eternal Dragon
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
2 Decree of Justice
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
1 Humility
4 Standstill
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Enlightened Tutor
3 Spell Snare
2 Cunning Wish
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 Runed Halo
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 Return to Dust


It has to be tested as there is a lot of 1, 2 and 3 of's. I doubt of its consistency.

So I cut: -1 Counterspell, -1 EE, -2 Fact Or Fiction and I'm currently @ 61 cards.

Why those?
+ Counter lock = need less removal I guess and maybe 1 CS less.
+ Top = Good for searching card quality so it's somehow doin' FoF job.

PS: Note that I privilege basics and Spell snare over non-basics and CS.

PM

[Bardo]

I can't see the justifaction to play landstill and play countertop. It just doesnt make ANY sense to me why you would play a combo aggro killer in a deck that already does that well. Explain.

I think the most direct answer I can give is this: Counterbalance makes your bad match-ups decent and your decent match-ups excellent. It's protection and a card-advantage engine in one card.

[rockout]

What's the three drop to make counterbalance better against a wider range of decks? A singleton crucible of worlds? I'm not a fan of Cunning Wish, but if I did run Cunning Wish I would still only have 3 total converted mana cost spells for counterbalance.

[Bardo]

What's the three drop to make counterbalance better against a wider range of decks? A singleton crucible of worlds? I'm not a fan of Cunning Wish, but if I did run Cunning Wish I would still only have 3 total converted mana cost spells for counterbalance.

The most common and useful 3s to run for Counterbalance in Landstill are Pernicious Deed, Vedalken Shackles and Crucible of Worlds. Though, I wouldn't go too far out of your way for it, since you mainly run CB for opposing 1 and 2 cmc spells.

People will be gunning for CB with Grip in G2/3, and you'll often be bringing in Grips against those decks anyway, that's another common way to boost your 3s.

[Citrus-God]

The most common and useful 3s to run for Counterbalance in Landstill are Pernicious Deed, Vedalken Shackles and Crucible of Worlds. Though, I wouldn't go too far out of your way for it, since you mainly run CB for opposing 1 and 2 cmc spells.

People will be gunning for CB with Grip in G2/3, and you'll often be bringing in Grips against those decks anyway, that's another common way to boost your 3s.

You could run Vindicate to fill the 3c slot.

[Ironstickman]

Well, I also believe Bardo's list has potential, I'm not sure of the B splash though. Just some more thoughts on counterbalance (some discussed a lot of pages ago XD!) and a UWg list:

Yeah, adding a cheap-deffensive-wincon is the way to go (Tarmogoyf---g splash).
The Humility versions are rather too slow and eventually the opponent will be able to escape from the counterbalance lock. Against Burn/Fast Aggro or Combo decks counterbalance will prevent you from loosing, but you'll take ages to win. Plus, you'll notice that the converted mana costs of humilitiy/WoG lists are not compatible with balance.

This deck starts to ressemble UGw threshold (and Dreadstill in a way) a lot.
With balance, 22-23 lands is more appropiate . 7-8 fetchlands.
This is just an idea:

// Lands
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [R] Tropical Island
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
4 [R] Tundra
2 [TE] Wasteland
2 [B] Island (2)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells

4 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [B] Counterspell
2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty (or Control Magic)
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

16 U sources (same as threshold, +2 dreadstill)
Wasteland is a card that a spanish guy is obliged to play regardless of the deck, but nantuko is a good possibility (with loam or FoF's)

It might be better to drop the tutors and the silver bullets for more consistency.(+1 top +...), but its hard to find the optimal card for 3 CMC slots.

[sengirvmpr]

I like zvi's list the best because the tutors are a great way to get that one card that can possibly hose the opponent.

4 flooded strand
1 polluted delta
5 islands
2 plains
4 factorys
3 wastlands
4 tundra

1 ee
1 crucible
1 threads of disloyalty
1 seal of cleansing
1 hoofprints of the stag
4 fow
4 force spike
3 standstill
3 swords
2 wrath
4 brainstorm
3 counterbalance
3 top
2 e dragon
4 enlightened tutor


Welcome to The Source, but note this post is seriously lacking in posting quality. Please see our Site Rules. - Bardo

[rockout]

I think 4x Enlightened Tutor is took much card disadvantage. You can go -2 E. Tutors and up the best card in the deck (ee) to 3 total. You definitely do not want to draw seven and have E. Tutor x 2 and say a Force of Will. With 4x E. Tutor, you definitely run the risk of drawing an E. Tutor instead of business or card draw later on in the game. Plus it makes you wait a turn, so it's only really good as a 2-of.

Other than that, force spike looks a little awkward. Have you tried daze instead of force spike?

[Enigma]

What's the three drop to make counterbalance better against a wider range of decks? A singleton crucible of worlds? I'm not a fan of Cunning Wish, but if I did run Cunning Wish I would still only have 3 total converted mana cost spells for counterbalance.

In my list, I'm much concerned about 2cc spells. Only Standstill and CB..

[Citrus-God]

You all realize you don't need Tarmogoyfs when playing Counterbalance, right? Why can't we just use Counterbalance for card advantage? I mean, if the soft-lock takes you to late game, you should be winning anyway because it's Landstill.

So I say just run more cards that help you stabilize and isnt susceptible to removal, like Goyf. Play cards like WoG and such to help you stabilize and run cards Monastery so that you have a better clock under Counterbalance.

[Ironstickman]

Yes, but goyf gives you a fast clock against combo and a big wall against aggro, which is what we need. Plus, it makes standstill less conditional.
Counter-top setup is not fast enough, and many threats might have gone through before you've stablished it.
Goyf is particullary good because it is not mana intensive, although it's true that most decks are prepared to deal with it

[Citrus-God]

Yes, but goyf gives you a fast clock against combo and a big wall against aggro, which is what we need. Plus, it makes standstill less conditional.

Your deck has always been good under Standstill.

As for combo, I'd rather have Krosan Grips in that slot over Tarmogoyfs. Tarmogoyf cant protect you from Painter's Stone, TES loses if it fizzles on you anyway (read AN's mana cost, just counter it if they dare cast it), and
and Goyf doesnt do crap against Ichorid.

Against Aggro, Goyfs are just sub par compared to cards like Humility. They'll just throw a Swords to Plowshares at it and just continue swinging. Even if you have a Goyf out, they'll just cast more guys and keep swinging. If you counter anything stupid like a copy of Swords to Plowshares, the worst is yet to come; they will from there cast a Price of Progress because you misused your counters. Against Goblins, they run Warren Weirding. The more I think about running creatures in this deck, the more likely I am to reject the idea after much testing with maindeck Tarmogoyfs.

Counter-top setup is not fast enough, and many threats might have gone through before you've stablished it.

Landstill is a board control deck. Why would this be an issue?

Goyf is particullary good because it is not mana intensive, although it's true that most decks are prepared to deal with it

Bitterblossom is just as good. Seriously, why arent you people running that instead of Goyf?