hi
heres my build im gonna play at a saturday tournament ...
except the sb may differ ...
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
18 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
4 [CS] Scrying Sheets
// Creatures
2 [SHM] Painter's Servant
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
// Spells
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
2 [8E] Wrath of God
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
2 [MR] Isochron Scepter
2 [WL] Abeyance
2 [TE] Grindstone
1 [UD] Powder Keg
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
1 [TE] Scroll Rack
1 [TSB] Sacred Mesa
1 [LG] Moat
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 2 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 2 [SH] Sacred Ground
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [10E] Story Circle
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes
already played the deck some times even without the combo in berlin pt sideevent
until now i had humility in my deck which made elspeth and decree alot better i think but i want to test them without them because for example vs landstill they are both great
relic maindeck and scroll rack are new testcards
im really excited about scrollrack in theory it sounds great in long games when you put lands on top and scrying sheets them away ...
but i also think the painter combo is essential ... in some mus you just need a fast way to win after 1 or 2 chants because u will have no chance otherwhise (for example geddonstaxx)
also i think u need it vs aggressive decks after you stalled the till turn 8 or so ... because normally you are somewhere below 10 lifepoints then and then you need to kill him in one or two turns
oh and it is essential that it is around 7 mana including chant ;)
any interesting advices tipps opinions ???? ;)
First, I'd cut the three decree of justices, because if you have the combo, elspeth, and mesa they really are not needed and slow you down more than neccessary. You don't need a ton of win conditions anyway, because you're going to see yours, and they're going to do their job. I never really liked decree because you really need a lot of mana to guarantee a win...
With those three slots I'd run 3 Runed Halo maindeck. I'd say no less than three halos, because they're super-fast and they stop things very well. Especially since you've decided to run only two abeyance, this can help your combo matchup a bit as well.
I don't really like powder keg in this deck because you have better answers in my opinion (except against tokens, but I don't think they'll be too much of a problem). I mean, even wrath is almost realistically better if you have the lands right away to play it, since keg can't kill goyf until the 4th turn if you start with it. I'd add the 3rd oblivion ring. ALthough you have a lot of shuffle, I think it's very good to have more answers to things that aren't creatures. O-ring offers that, but also gives you the versatility to hit creatures.
I have to go now, but I'll post more later :P
ok first of all
i think decree is one of the best kill options in this deck (in my opinion better then elspeth and maybe even mesa) in can't be stopped by needle (heavily plaeyed around here) and it freaks out the landstill players (you can play more or bigger decrees than they do) so they would always need explosives and standstill to make their carddraw work
but your right about to many win conditions i think so im thinking about cutting the 1 elspeth maindeck the whole time ... ... and maybe i should try without the decrees but until now they were always sooo good but until now i also had humility (oh and i like them do die slowly ;)))) )
another card you might suggest might be the relic but i think at least here it is in like 90 percent game winner because people play loam or ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh
also you can handle anoying explosive recursions. just a little meta call you might say
powder keg is in my opinion way to good to cut
it can kill belcher tokens fast enough to let you survive
it can kill chalice of the void (sure you will have hard way of finding it with chalice of one but it is one more out)
sure it is not good in handling tarmogoyfs but it does many other good jobs
at least thats what i think :)
yeah and about the cards you want to add ... im pretty sure these are the right cards
i want more oblivion rings (mainly for dark confidant who is such a beating)
and i want runed halo at least 2 md ... but the only think i would like to cut is the 1 elspeth
Decree can be stopped by Needle.Originally Posted by pandabaer
Team SPOD[23:08:50] <@Anusien> You want me to actually test?
[23:09:02] <frogboy> I thought you already had
i can then still hardcast it ;) i know this isn't perfect but at least it is not a dead card ... and with mesa and elspeth you normally already invested card and mana after they handle it for one mana with needle
when they play needle on decree they normally have to guess and you can just shuffle them away with tops or hardcast it
maybe cutting 1 decree and 1 elspeth for 2 runed halos
:P
after testing today i think i will cut the scroll rack and perhaps 1 decree and 1 elspeth md for 2 runed halos and 1 oblivion ring
Last edited by pandabaer; 12-03-2008 at 05:16 PM.
Winning for six mana is just really good. There's not a lot else to it. Painter's Stone lets you win games you were going to lose. Remember that the reason control is good is because it ruins other people's plans, not because it's slow. If you can win earlier, you should. Hell, that's why Flash was broken, it was a control deck that won on turn 2.
You're talking about a scenario involving active Vial, Sharpshooter, Kiki and Siege-gang against a deck running Wrath, StP, Scepter-Chant, and a six-mana winning combo.
I think this one should be chalked up to luck. The last thing you want to do as a control player is fall into the trap of fighting god-hands.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
What do you guys usually side out for the faerie stompy matchup? I know things like moat should come out, but i have trouble finding room to bring in all the disenchant effects.
Based on Valtrix's inquiries earlier in this thread, and my experience that Sacred Mesa resolving > Anything aggro control can usually do, especially WhateverStompy, I've modified the sideboard thusly;
-4 Belcher/Horizons
+2 Sacred Mesa
+1 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Story Circle
In this case, I'd side out;
-1 Moat
-4 Painter-Stone combo
-2 Isochron Scepter
-2 Orim's Chant
+4 Disenchant effects
+3 Story Circle
+2 Sacred Mesa
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
The interesting thing about that sideboarding option is that it makes Chalice a double-edged sword; If they drop it for 1, while it still shuts down a large number of your spells, they can't drop P. Needle, which is usually their only answer to Story Circle/Sacred Mesa.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Some questions:
Is Mana Tithe worth considering as a sideboard option for this deck? It seems like it might help you fight against Chalice of the Void, which everyone is saying is a problem for this. Granted, they would play around it once they started expecting it, but they're pretty much guaranteed not to expect the first one... Just a thought.
Did anyone have good results using Elspeth and/or Ajani Goldmane? It seems like these both might work pretty well, or be unspectacular, and I was wondering which it turned out to be...
One more random card idea: Solitary Confinement. It seems like you could run this as a one-of in the sideboard and be able to keep it going for a while with Scrying Sheets and Divining Top out, and it might be a good way to add tutor-able stall to the deck as backup to the Chants and Abeyances.
I'm perfectly willing to believe any and all of these are bad ideas, just throwing them out there, I'd be interested to hear what y'all think of them.
One other thing I was sort of interested in that I saw in another thread is someone saying "Quinn could be a deck that would be utterly ridiculous and dominate nearly everything, it's just waiting on the one ideal card to be printed for it." Granted, this is a really ambiguous statement, but it made me wonder: what exactly does this deck suffer in consistency on? Is it just that there's not an ideal fatty white creature to use as a finisher, or is it the varying weakness to Chalice and Counterbalance? What is the ideal card that this deck is looking for, or what exactly do y'all think the dude who said that meant?
Last edited by DukeDemonKn1ght; 12-07-2008 at 08:36 PM. Reason: one more idea
I doubt if wizzards would give white a fatty creature with minimal drawback and good casting is to power thoughness ratio.
A couple more random thoughts:
Do you think this deck could get by with one Grindstone instead of two, or does the first one just get destroyed too often? If I ran one Grindstone, I'd probably go up to three Painter's Servants, to have less of a likelihood of having to tutor for the Servant, and since it chump blocks and has additional synergy with Story Circle. I could make myself buy a singleton Grindstone a lot quicker than a pair...
So although I realize Eternal Dragon is awesome in this deck, I thought of another creature I think might actually be good: Pristine Angel. Most likely this won't get the nod, since y'all passed on Exalted Angel, but think of it this way: Whereas Exalted Angel forces you to overcommit mana or turns on a creature that can get killed pretty easily, chances are once you resolve Pristine Angel, it's gonna stick on the table for a while. It can hang back and block... just about anything, and it gives your cheap instants extra value. This deck has a fair amount of ways to untap it, between StP, Tutor, Chant, and Abeyance, and this basically makes any of your instants function as a counterspell to any targeted removal they're trying to take out Pristine Angel with. It's pretty slow as a kill condition, I'll give it that, but is it really any slower than Decree of Justice?
Do y'all think this would be a feasible creature to use if I made the deck going for a man-plan either in the maindeck, or instead of the optional secondary Belcher/Horizons combo in the sideboard? I think no more than a two-of would be the correct number to use, if it's good enough to go in here that is... Let me know what you think.
*Let me also just say thank you to you guys for working on a Legacy deck that doesn't require any dual lands at all. I realize Moat and Grindstone are pretty pricey cards, but I'd rather buy three expensive cards to play a deck than spend like three hundred dollars on the fucking manabase. Y'all rock. Long live snow-control!
Last edited by DukeDemonKn1ght; 12-08-2008 at 12:56 PM. Reason: overlong
This deck intrigues me. Can someone give me a brief matchup rundown? Most of the lists look like they skullfuck decks with guys but are kind of loose against Counterbalance decks and combo decks. Is that accurate?
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
Between Chant effects, Runed Halo, Lock pieces, removal, the combo kill and the draw engine, it really does skullfuck most things.
Things that give you major problems basically fall into two categories;
1) Chalice/Counterbalance. Both shut down an absurd amount of the deck and require an O-Ring to resolve in answer, G1.
2) LD. Especially mass-LD, mainly Devastating Dreams.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Just to go over my questions again and condense them a bit:
1.Would Mana Tithe do anything for this deck? I could imagine it giving Quinn a slim boost against Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void. But on the other hand, it would be completely dead if the opponent got either of these cards out.
2.Would Solitary Confinement do anything for this deck? Is Scrying Sheets just not quite a good enough draw engine for this, or does losing the cards just suck? I mean, hey, Confinement is good against combo decks, right?
3.Would Pristine Angel be a decent creature to use as an alternate finisher? She seems pretty durable, although not a terribly good clock. On the more aggressive end, how about Akroma?
4.Would it work all right to use 1 Grindstone and 3 Painter's Servant instead of 2 and 2? I'm just cheap about buying a second Grindstone, I can see how it rocks in this deck, but it's just so overpriced to buy for what it does. I'm convinced that Moat is worth it, just wondering if the 2nd 'Stone is necessary for budget reasons...
5.Was Elspeth unimpressive when y'all tried her? Too slow/ not good enough as stall?
I'd rather just run Disenchant effects, up to and including Illumination, against Chalice/CB, since they're not dead off the top. Or if the opponent has two mana open.
2) Scrying Sheets won't maintain Confinement; without drawing a card a turn, you'll run out of Snow-covered Plains to top rather quickly. Then you're reduced to paying five a turn to keep Dragon going, and it's very messy.
3) No. Pristine Angel is easily countered and dies to Wrath, and offers no card advantage or secondary utility. Ditto to Akroma, with the bonus that Akroma bites it to Swords to Plowshares. Although, Pristine Angel probably does too, really, since you have relatively few instants.
4) Ehhhh. I mean, you can, but it's definitely suboptimal. I ran a DoJ in the second Grindstone's place at the Source anniversary tournament, because I didn't have another good option; I don't think you need 3 Servant.
5) Elspeth is really hard to work around Moat. Otherwise she might compete for a second Mesa slot. It's also really hard to get to the Armageddon-proof point; if they're going to nuke you, they'd do it before then.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
I have very limited experience with Elspeth, but in my opinion she isn't terrible. I had a problem because I ran bridges, which meant I couldn't use the boost, so she was somewhat worthless. One token a turn is truly not what you want to use her for to win.
What I do like about Elspeth is that she not only is a win condition, but is pretty good at buying you time. However, it's important to realize that she can't be our primary way to victory. The more cards we can have doing double duty in the deck the better. She's going to make one chump blocker a turn and absorb at least 5 damage. That combination actually feels like enough to warrent her to be at least tested more, and I could see her having a part in the deck as a 2-of, even if I'm not exactly sure what I would cut for her.
Actually elspeth works well with moat. You just create a soldier token and make it fly over and attack each turn in the air for 4, so you can end the game quickly in 5 or 6 turns (Depending on the amount of swords you've used). It's not exactly the fastest, but I don't necessarily feel that it's much worse than mesa. Elspeth has the advantage over mesa of being much harder for the opponent to remove, as well as added functionality over being just a win condition. Maybe a wrath and an abeyance.
Speaking of chalice and counterbalance, if it's such a concern, shouldn't we try to find space for the 4th O-ring? I think that it should increase our matches where we absolutely need it without hurting other matchups too much. I think an E-dragon could still be cut...22 land + 1 dragon + tops is usually pretty good to find land.
Why is Elspeth harder than Mesa to remove? All you have to do is attack it.
Mesa, meanwhile, can do more than produce a chumpblocker every turn; Mesa drowns the opponent in tokens.
The only real reason to play Elspeth over Mesa would be the third ability, but I'm not convinced that's fast enough to be relevant.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Well, Elspeth affects the board much sooner than mesa. At 4 land mesa tends not to do much. Tying up all your mana for 1 pegasus token just isn't that good. Elspeth can start doing things already, and the amount of time she can buy seems worthwhile in my opinion, since if Elspeth isn't dealt with she's (probably) going to win you the game. I guess she's not necessarily harder to remove; I was considering more the games where you stop their creatures, but then they use a krosan grip to destroy their win condition. Maybe it's not such an issue because there's so many powerful enchantments/artifacts already in the deck. I don't think she's terribly hard to protect though. If you don't have enough creature control to protect her, you're probably not doing a very good job protecting yourself anyway. The only thing I don't like is that she can't take advantage of runed halo.
I never said that she should be played over Mesa, but I think that in combination with the rest of the deck might be powerful. I think her versatility is good. I don't expect the third ability to be particularly relevant either, since it's too slow. There still is the fact that she can end the game in 6-7 turns, without any mana restrictions. While not incredibly fast, it's not completely terrible, and I think it's wrong to look at Elspeth completely for how effectively she wins the game. She does more than that.
Is Eternal Dragon a must in the deck ? If its main purpose is to be a resiliant creature maybe Dawn Elemental can be used since it costs lower and is hard to kill aswell
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