You can't really complain about "oh man, you'll draw Demigod at some point" (particularly since it's still a fine creature on it's own) and then turn around and say "and you're going to have to Intuition for Urborg" when you play the same amount of copies plus have all this other manipulation.
For one thing, Crime just requires you to resolve Intuition, as opposed to finding CB and Top. For another, they're not mutually exclusive. Lastly, the card straight up rapes the other guy in the mirror, and avoids the Krosan Grip trump they may or may not be holding.Do you know why I hate Raven's Crime? If you have a deck with Counterbalance, why spend more time and mana to do Raven's Crime when you can just as effectively (with less mana) use Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top to lock them out? Plus, Raven's Crime doesn't stop topdecks.
Deed is main because then you don't get blown out by the lock as often and because you can just kill their board and then lock them out.
Gigapede sucks because, again, he takes forever to kill the other guy, as opposed to Demigod, which lets you actually race aggro decks in the midgame.
I actually wanted to play the deck because I didn't like how vulnerable other Counterbalance decks are to Krosan Grip going long.You say that the "entire point" of playing Demigod is to win through Blood Moon, but Moon effects are, at best, a minor metagame concern right now.
Probably worth testing.P.S., how does Magus of the Moon sound in the blue control mirror? Seems like it would do a number on ITF, Landstill, etc.
people who think that Intuitioning for Demigods is awesome are going to have their minds totally and completely fucking blown away when they dredge one while having another in their hand. just saying.P.S., I like drawing Demigod. It's kinda nice knowing you never have to win Tarmogoyf wars, and it becomes really nice when you dredge one.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
Now, I want to play this deck because you have Life from the Loam, Raven's Crime, Intuition, Deed, Counterbalance, Top, and DEMIGOD RAWR.Originally Posted by frogboy
It's all the good cards from ITF, with a more solid midgame and win condition.
InfoNinjas
You know that Counterbalance can counter Krosan Grip, right?
You also know that if I always had Intuition resolve, I'd probably be fine anyway. Counterbalance and Top are multiples. Raven's Crime and Life from the Loam are singletons. That means, that you can answer Krosan Grip by playing another one, and with the reasonably large amount of threes that It's the Fear plays, I can reliably counter opposing sweepers like Deed.
Do you know why I don't "just win"? It's because sometimes you can't. Sometimes you need to draw yourself out of a situation. Big, dumb, dorks don't always get there. It's the Fear is designed to make use of it's singletons at all points of the game. The one exception is Etched Oracle (and if my opponent is playing Threshold, it's unlikely that I'll just need to throw this guy out there on turn four, by the way). However, you have multiple cards (the second/third of Urborg/Demigod) that are terrible to draw. Plus, for every Demigod drawn, it lessens the ability to go "fifteen, brah" (which sounds fucking retarded by the way).
You know why you bother? Because it doesn't cost you cards to continue with your gameplan. You don't have to add in shitty creatures just because you're afraid of playing against your opponent. Stop being a lazy ass and realize that "doing the work" is better for you.
Also, Magus sounds terrible. The removal that they have isn't going anywhere else, plus you don't have a way to drop him on turn one. That lessens his impact considerably.
For the foreseeable future, expect to see less of me. I've lost my internet connection, and so I'll only be able to get on by siphoning free Wi-Fi from the surrounding areas. Which isn't always consistent.
Plus, the guy that I used to leech off of has now instituted password protection. This means that I effectively do not have internet at home. :(
Well, I mean, the real reason I wanted to play the deck was "oh man Intuition for Demigod is totally sweet" but I sort of figured that wasn't a good enough reason for this thread. I probably would've played it anyway because attacking for fifteen is very satisfying, but seriously, if you build your end game to have an emphasis on Counterbalance, you're going to be extremely vulnerable to Grip. You're a lot less vulnerable when you can just up and kill your opponent.
lol does this really ever happen?You know that Counterbalance can counter Krosan Grip, right?
edit: I should probably clarify. I'm not actually convinced this is the best Counterbalance deck, because I only ever actually got in for fifteen once* and spent most of my Intuitions doing other things to skullfuck my opponents. With that said, Demigod was in fact a reasonable man when I drew him, and I'm pretty sure that Demigods are relevant against aggro decks. Raven's Crime is completely absurd, and the ability to go tutor up Mind Twist is totally worth the fact that you occasionally draw it. Once you draw the first Demigod, the second and third ones are fine. Redundant Urborgs obviously suck, but, like, Wastelands, Tops, Brainstorms, etc. The main fear with Grip is that they'll blow out your Counterbalance and then untap and burn you out or play their own or do something equally unfair even if it's as stupid as put out a board and have permission for your sweeper. Demigod helps you blank that plan.
*technically, twice; Tosh Crypted me in response to the trigger. I feel compelled to note that he still got killed by the last Demigod.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
Ask my opponents. I've done it quite a few times.
For the foreseeable future, expect to see less of me. I've lost my internet connection, and so I'll only be able to get on by siphoning free Wi-Fi from the surrounding areas. Which isn't always consistent.
Plus, the guy that I used to leech off of has now instituted password protection. This means that I effectively do not have internet at home. :(
Are they just playing unbelievably badly or something? Even if you're just spinning a three and they never test spell you, they're still even money to pick the right time, and if you ever want to actually use it to counter a spell they can just kold it then.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
How can you do a good job presenting a deck if you don't mention its well-established name?
It also feels like it's a poor "In Depth on Demigod" article if you pretend to not know ITF. That's what you're doing.It feels like it's a poor "In Depth on Demigod" article if it requires you to know all about ITF first.
And if you wrote an introduction to ITF, the article wouldn't even require to know anything about ITF first. OHWAIT. You did write an introduction to ITF. But only under the premise that Demigod has to be played. Bad idea. Apparently, this deck can win without Demigods.
Deckcheck reveals me 180 decks that play Blood Moon somewhere. That's less than 5% of all decks listed there. If you're looking for Blood Moon maindeck (so you can't Hydroblast it), there are 85 decks. Only 23 them are not Dragon Stompy. Have you noticed the popularity of Dragon Stompy decreasing signficantly?Deckcheck reveals me a ton of Blood Moon decks. Many of them are in Europe. Many of them also represented at Worlds 2007. You're right though, they'll magically not reappear this year at Worlds when the metagame is just as ripe for them.
This is the stuff you should be writing in your article!I covered this slightly before, but I feel the difference between ITF and Demigod is the difference between BBS that kills with Ophidians and BBS that kills with Morphling.
Article:
"Look at this deck. It's just ITF with some changes, but I call it 'Demigod' because that's the only difference to standard ITF lists. (I also call Team America 'Sinkhole'... wait, I never said that). I spend the rest of the time talking about how to play ITF and what its matchups are like."
-> you've written a primer for an unproved version of ITF. Who wants to read that? In a primer you start with the standard build and later you tell your reader about how to adjust to a Blood Moon-heavy metagame.
Feedback Thread:
"Demigod is good because (...)list of things(...)
Raven's Crime is needed because (...)list of things(...)
bla bla bla ITF bla bla bla ITF bla
This deck is bettern than ITF because (...)list of things(...)"
I don't agree with all points you've made here. But still: Glue all of your posts in this thread together, do some editing and voilą - this is how your article should have looked like.
EDIT:
Stop ruining your articles on purpose plz.
Team SPOD[23:08:50] <@Anusien> You want me to actually test?
[23:09:02] <frogboy> I thought you already had
"Test spelling" a Counterbalance guarantees a two for one. Sure, you Gripped the Counterbalance, but the amount of mana you spent (because you have to play a spell that I actually want to counter, not something like Brainstorm), is substantial.
What the fuck does "even money to pick the right time" mean? With multiple threes, I can keep threes on top throughout my turn. Especially if I board in Krosan Grip (which would mean even more threes in the deck). Not everyone walks themselves into guaranteed two for ones. Maybe it's just you.
For the foreseeable future, expect to see less of me. I've lost my internet connection, and so I'll only be able to get on by siphoning free Wi-Fi from the surrounding areas. Which isn't always consistent.
Plus, the guy that I used to leech off of has now instituted password protection. This means that I effectively do not have internet at home. :(
2 green, 3 colorless in opposed to 5 black. You're joking yourself if you think it's hard to get the 2 green.
Because Tombstalker doesn't require more than 2 lands in play, and can be played much quicker than the Demigod, especially through land hate. If you really think magus is such a problem just trade out your crappy Urborgs for 3 swamps and fetch for them, you'll be sitting pretty waiting to cast your tombstalker.P.S., why is Tombstalker awesome on its own (assuming you can cast it) as a 5/5 Flyer and Demigod sucks as a 5/4 Flyer with Haste? It's not like I can Tombstalker on turn 3 anyway, I don't put enough cards into the graveyard.
Demigod sucks because you absolutely cannot cast him before turn 5, and even later if you run into even 1 of the million wastelands that everyone is playing. Playing him without getting any of his friends is definitely not better than Tombstalker, since the haste is negated by how many extra turns it took you to put the demigod into play.
Like, at some point during your turn, there has to be a non-three on top of your library, or else you'll just draw all of them. At that point, each of you is trying to figure out what level the other person is thinking on.What the fuck does "even money to pick the right time" mean? With multiple threes, I can keep threes on top throughout my turn.
This is true, but given that most of your cards are blanks with Counterbalance in play, it's not particularly relevant, especially in the context of setting up for one big turn. Plus, if you two for one them, and they kill you, you don't get a prize for being up on cards."Test spelling" a Counterbalance guarantees a two for one.
edit:
I would actually guess that if you're playing against someone who's actively trying to use mana denial, that getting to four + Urborg is easier than getting to three and Trop + Trop. Three basic swamps is terrible.You're joking yourself if you think it's hard to get the 2 green.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
Are you guys really debating whether Demigod or Tarmogoyf is a better kill condition or a better creature?
Because from a kill condition standpoint, Demigod beats Tarmy with a wet biscuit and makes him like it.
The creature argument takes into account stuff like blocking and how early it can be played, which is a different question altogether.
It's like the argument here is ITF shell with better quick kill ability or ITF shell with more versatile creature.
Honestly though, I think if you want to make an ITF shell with a quick kill ability you'd be better off putting in some kind of independent combo kill mechanism. Like painter/grindstone or something and just playing control until you get it online and win. I'm sure there's a better option than painter/gridnstone for an instant combo kill here, that's just the first thing that popped into my head.
Kevin, a 5/5 Flier foris pretty good in this format, did you notice the Top 8 of the TMLO 4? I'm certain you can fill your graveyard with enough cards to cast Tombstalker at some point in your matches. It also doesn't cost
What does that even mean? And how does drawing one of your Demigods help in that department?
What surprises me more is your analysis of card advantage
I'm 100% certain that decks that draw 3 extra cards a turn are going to win many more games than decks that do not draw 3 extra cards a turn. I'm not sure why those decks that win need to go "to extra card drawing engines".
For me, the article tries to pump up a deck that isn't very good. If the Demigod deck was testing well and generating some buzz with online players, why didn't it make any impact in Connecticut? Wouldn't that have been an awesome time to unleash the beast? Did anyone actually play it at the TMLO? The article reminds me of an older one written by the same author about a Loam Confinement deck and how it didn't perform well at a recent tournament because of poor card choices. That deck didn't perform well because it wasn't very good to begin with. For those of you who think Nightmare, Jack and the other nay-sayers are being too critical of Unlocking Legacy and this author in particular, read the articles and tell us we're wrong.
Now, I don't play this format (yet, hence the lurking) so take this with a grain of salt:
If your strong point is being able to drop your win condition through Blood Moon (ie: it's actually an enabler) and Blood Moon screws people hard, why do you not rework the deck and mana base and simply run Blood Moon in the main?
I would think that running a card that simultaneously screws the other guy whilst fixing your manas (Blood Moon) would be better than running stuff that just fixes your manas (Urborg).
Granted, it would cut your access to much of the cool things, but it would also streamline and focus the deck.
Just wondering whether you'd given that any thought.
First, in answer to Obsucate Freely, whose question got lost somewhere:
Yes, I know at least a few of my readers will be playing in the teams section at Worlds. Also, I know Blood Moon decks are a concern in certain metagames (for instance, mine), and that makes it a popular choice. I would also be happy to play it in metagames where there is no Blood Moon, since I think it is better than many competing strategies.
I had, but not in a while so thanks. At one point the deck was five color with Collective Restraint, and that was terrible. I still had this idea to splash Magus of the Moon. The problem is that Magus is really bad if you have to tutor it up and the opponent sees it coming, and there simply aren't 4 maindeck slots available. 4 Magus of the Moon 1 Volcanic Island is a reasonable sideboard package, but I don't have the slots, don't know if I need 5 slots worth of sideboard against those decks, and most importantly I haven't really tested that matchup as much as I'd like because it's not that common locally.
It helps more to see my train of thought if you realize Loam = drawing 3 cards a turn. And this is exactly my point; if I cast Life from the Loam every turn, I shouldn't need to bother with other cards; I should just be able to win.
To the best of my knowledge, no one that hasn't seen the deck first-hand respected it. That's one of the important reasons for the article: to get the deck out there and make it a known entity that can see some play. And if you're going to tell me not making a plane trip up to Connecticut makes an article less credible, don't bother: it's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
Sure, I CAN cast Tombstalker. But guess when: generally around the same time that I have 5 mana.
To all the people suggesting Tombstalker (and fuck there are a lot of you): test the deck. You cannot cast Tombstalker early in the deck; you simply do not fill the graveyard fast enough. I can cast Tombstalker about the same time that I can cast Demigod; if the two are now the same speed, Demigod is a thousand times better on the stats.
It flies and beats for 10-15? Seems like an easy way to not have to fuck around on the ground for an hour and a half like Dave wants. Board control doesn't have to mean slow.
@Brehn: I'm not an expert in ITF. ITF doesn't run Raven's Crime, and this deck abuses Raven's Crime harder than it does Demigod of Revenge. They look similar on paper, but because Raven's Crime encourages you to dump your hand to negate theirs, they play in radically different ways. And if it takes three pages before someone goes "This is actually ITF", then it strongly suggests that you're wrong. If in a few months people move on from ITF to whatever, then this stops being a good introductory article to Demigod. And it's not like you have to know anything about ITF to understand this deck.
So yeah, when ITF magically starts running all the cards Dave hates, maybe I'll start comparing this to ITF. Until then, it needs to stand on its own.
Last edited by Anusien; 12-05-2008 at 11:42 AM.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
You don't just need 5 mana, you need 5 mana including an Urborg. There is a big difference between needing BB and BBBBB. If you're popping fetchlands, casting Brainstorms, so on and so forth, you should have at least 4 cards in you're graveyard in a relevant timeframe. The ability to not tap completely out to cast Tombstalker means you have mana open to spin Top, Counterspell something, or whatever.Sure, I CAN cast Tombstalker. But guess when: generally around the same time that I have 5 mana.
To all the people suggesting Tombstalker (and fuck there are a lot of you): test the deck. You cannot cast Tombstalker early in the deck; you simply do not fill the graveyard fast enough. I can cast Tombstalker about the same time that I can cast Demigod; if the two are now the same speed, Demigod is a thousand times better on the stats.
My point was simply that it requires alot of different things to happen in order for Demigod to actually be worth it, whereas Tombstalker is just more relevant more often.
It's basically a comparison between stability and explosiveness, and which concept is better for the deck overall. Over the course of many games of testing, I think you would find Tombstalker doing more damage, over the long run, simply because it's going to consistently come down sooner and consistently come down more often.
You've never dredged a Tombstalker when the first one was in your hand, have you? That's 5-10 points of hasty, uncounterable damage.
It's not just a question of which comes down first. Having reach in the form of hasty creatures can be significant. Demigods far often are going to connect the first time in places where Tombstalker wouldn't because the opponent didn't leave StP mana up because there wasn't anything to Swords. Plus, Demigod is far better to recur with Volrath's Stronghold because it's cheaper after the first use. And it counters Counterbalance as a 5.
And no, Demigod can't be Counterbalanced himself. The trigger goes on the stack and the Counterbalance triggers goes on top of it, so if it is countered via Counterbalance, the trigger can't have resolved yet.
Tombstalker is a ho-hum, solid but unspectacular beater. Sometimes Demigod sucks, and sometimes he just wins. You dramatically under-estimate free wins from uncounterable Demigods, hasty damage, and chaining together Demigods. Like seriously.
It's actually not unreasonable to not hit 4 cards in the graveyard until I cast Intuition for Loam. And once I've done that, I'd much rather have Demigod.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
The question of whether or not ITF or ITF with Demigod sucks more, or whether they both suck, or whether one is fantastic and the other sucks wet noodles, while no doubt fascinating, probably belongs more in the ITF thread or in a separate thread discussing ITF with Demigod (sidenote: I'm not accusing anyone of plagiarism, I'm just saying for a half dozen card difference, I'm not using another name, especially in light of Kevin's complete inability to provide an interesting name for said deck).
What I'm interested in in this thread is the actual article, and primarily why the acknowledged erroneous statement that ITF with Demigod was a "premier" anything in Legacy, when at best, Anusien, you want to say "Dark horse" here, has not been fixed. You've acknowledged that you're presenting erroneous data to your readers. Please ask someone to fix it.
And for my money, Magus of the Moon sounds terrible in this deck.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
One theoretical reason why Raven's Crime is good (I say theoretical because I haven't played it enough to get this situation to come up) is that you can effectively nullify opposing Standstills with it. I was testing some games vs. Rich Shay's Dreadstill the other day and that deck really loves getting that enchantment to resolve. If Intuition EOT meant Raven's Crime, Loam and Attractive Card #3, it'd laugh at Standstills. Cbal with Top counters Crime all day long but I figure if that's out, you're probably Intuitioning for something else at that point.
The one appeal I see of Tombstalker over Demigod is that you can cast it and keep more mana up during your turn and theirs to do stuff, like fight Top Wars or just annoy people with Top in general.
I don't have the ability to edit articles after they went up or I would have given more props to frogboy and MattH for helping me develop the deck and get it out there. What's more, the only change I would make would be to correct the grammar Herbig pointed out. I'm not particularly interested in discussing semantics, so if you have nothing else to say about the article or the content, please don't bother.
That said, I use "Demigod" to refer to the deck because it's the only one I know of that runs Demigod. If you'd like a catchy name we can call it "Jack Elgin Sucks a Turd", "Starlight Breaker" (this is the name of every Japanese deck ever, btw), or we can go back to calling it Anusien's New Age Landstill, like I wanted to so many months ago. Or heck, since we call Vorosh Vorosh, this can be "Fungal Shambler" or "Bound and Determined". I'd also suggest as possible names: "It's the Terror", "Your Mother Swims Out to Meet Troop Ships" or "Orange". Actually, scratch that. We should call the deck "Sinterklaas" because the Dutch Santa Claus is a freaking pimp, with a ring, a staff and a pope hat.
...
I think I've expressed my disdain for that entire line of thought. It's irrelevant what things get called, and I'm sick of this thread being taken over by semantics.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
You care if your article is grammatically accurate (although, based on experience and testimony, this is a lie), but not if it's factually accurate or actually gives anyone useful information.
*SNIP*
Tell me why people take you seriously, again? I'm honestly left scrabbling for answers.
Verbal warning for flaming
-TOOL
Last edited by T is for TOOL; 12-05-2008 at 01:47 PM.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
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