How bad is white?

[Hummingbird TG]

The other thing that seems to be true is that the white-black axis hasn't been re-explored much recently. Adding Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy to a white creature based theme is an idea that has a lot of merit, since it begins to resolve one of the main weaknesses in mono-white - which is vulnerability to storm combo.

You forget the other main weakness, which is arguably far more important: Getting all your creatures outclassed by Tarmogoyf. And raped by Counterbalance. (except Exalted Angel, but she requires 4 mana sources to work). Oh, add to that that White has terrible search and draw. There. Into perspective.

[matelml]

Both in a UW deck ofcourse. Together with G/B or both.

[Taurelin]

White has Orim's Chant.

Swords to Plowshares.

Indeed. + Armageddon, Eternal Dragon, Hoofprints of the Stag, Humility, Jötun Grunt, Moat, Oblivion Ring, Solitary Confinement, Wrath of God

You forget the other main weakness, which is arguably far more important: Getting all your creatures outclassed by Tarmogoyf.

Again: Humility, StoP, Obl. Ring, Grunt, Wrath...

White has terrible search...

Enlightened Tutor?

...and draw.

So has green, red, almost every color apart from blue (only exception: Confi).


Maybe I'm colourblind...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Ahem?

[kicks_422]

But most of the white cards are utility cards at best. White isn't a great main color, but it's a great color to splash for.

[Mirrislegend]

I would obviously play the white card, but you obviously play it in your blue deck.

QFT. Such raw, cheap card advantage could not possibly fly under the radar. WW for draw 5 wouldn't put white back on the radar as a playable color, it would just cause a few decks to splash a little into white (or splash more into white, if it already had some)

[Hummingbird TG]

Again: Humility, StoP, Obl. Ring, Grunt, Wrath...

Enlightened Tutor?

He was talking about a WB weenie deck. Tons of creatures, some discard. Enlightened Tutor fetches nothing there. Besides, Enlightened Tutor is terribly slow, too (except in Control, perhaps). Also, in the deck he suggested, out of the above listed cards, only StoP and Grunt fit...And almost every Tarmogoyf deck has infinitely many ways to protect their Goyfs (Grunts are as easy to remove as Goyfs, therefore, if not more; seeing as he isn't playing blue.)

So has green, red, almost every color apart from blue (only exception: Confi).

How often do you see green or red as the main color of a DTB? Oh, wait, Goblins. Um, Ringleader. Aggro Loam? LftL. (Survival does of course have Genesis, but if Survival is down you probably win anyway.) Of course, not that it's impossible to have a DtB or good deck without strong draw/search, but the alternative is speed and/or sheer power. None of which White coincidentally happens to possess.

[Skeggi]

White a bad colour... That's a dumb statement. There are so many good decks (and DTB's) with white as a very important colour. Take The Mighty Quinn for instance, not a DTB now, but if that WW card ever comes out, it will be for sure. Same goes with Rabid Wombat and Stax. Why wouldn't UW Landstill not play this card? It obviously outrocks Standstill...

So, yeah...are you high?

[Shugyosha]

A) Ancestral Recall

or

B) a white instant, costing WW, target player draws five cards?

B) because Ancestral Recall is banned, anyone?

[Hummingbird TG]

White a bad colour... That's a dumb statement. There are so many good decks (and DTB's) with white as a very important colour. Take The Mighty Quinn for instance, not a DTB now, but if that WW card ever comes out, it will be for sure. Same goes with Rabid Wombat and Stax. Why wouldn't UW Landstill not play this card? It obviously outrocks Standstill...

So, yeah...are you high?

1. You can't just say white's a good color just because an as-yet unprinted (and probably will never be printed) card is good. In fact, if it were printed it would probably in itself make white good. But that is a moot argument.

2. I'm not saying white is bad, and should never be run, per se. I'm saying it is probably the worst color in Legacy, and this statement is relative to the strengths of the other Colors present; and I'm also saying that white has several fundamental weaknesses in itself, which causes the decks you listed to not be top contenders (except for UW Landstill, but it is what it is more for the blue than for the white).

3. I'm also just saying that white is not a good main color, not that it is always poor (in combination with other colors), but in itself poor, and that the BW deck suggested by FoolofaTook is a poor choice.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You have yet to address the Mighty Quinn brokeness.

[socialite]

B) because Ancestral Recall is banned, anyone?

While I agree to a sense the same can be said for A) because B) doesn't even exist. Clearly hypothetical statements are far above you.

As far as White being a bad color Im more inclined to say Green and White are currently fighting for that position. Nonetheless both make extremely good splash colors.

[FoolofaTook]

You forget the other main weakness, which is arguably far more important: Getting all your creatures outclassed by Tarmogoyf. And raped by Counterbalance. (except Exalted Angel, but she requires 4 mana sources to work). Oh, add to that that White has terrible search and draw. There. Into perspective.

4x Swords to Plowshares and 3x Vindicate are sufficient answers for a 4-of creature regardless of how powerful it is. Having 4x Thoughtseize to also possibly take it away early probably makes Goyf one of the power cards I wouldn't be that worried about.

Point taken on Counterbalance, but that's a problem for any deck that uses a normal casting cost curve at this point. Vindicate or Engineered Explosives and pray, unless you're playing counters or planning to win in the first three turns that's pretty much the situation for any deck these days.

The search and draw is what would keep this from being a tier 1 deck. Really only blue has the necessary search and draw to be extremely consistent. Everybody else is mulliganing like hell to find what they need on turn 1. This is even true for Goblins and Dragon Stompy, two themes that you'd think could just pick up and go, but often can't.

[spirit of the wretch]

Are you high?

[FoolofaTook]

Plus Death and Taxes is only a few cards away from making the shift from - really annoying deck - to really good deck.

This is what I think also. White weenie plus control will be a very strong deck when it becomes feasible. It's not there just yet but with the creatures they are printing in white lately it's chances are gettng better and better.

[Hanni]

The search and draw is what would keep this from being a tier 1 deck. Really only blue has the necessary search and draw to be extremely consistent. Everybody else is mulliganing like hell to find what they need on turn 1. This is even true for Goblins and Dragon Stompy, two themes that you'd think could just pick up and go, but often can't.

Top and Confidant aren't good enough for you?

WW/b

20

18
4 Mother of Runes
4 Savannah Lions
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2 Serra Avenger
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Dark Confidant

22
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Something like that, maybe?

[emidln]

Nothing else.

Almost this. You and I both know we've cast Abeyance before. Serenity is also playable.

[Bryant Cook]

Almost this. You and I both know we've cast Abeyance before. Serenity is also playable.

Touche', I forgot about Neo-Chant. Anwar knows about Abeyance into LED for the win.

[GreenOne]

Ancestral is abviously better because the white one is easily countered by Spell Snare. Also, drawing 5 cards is likely to make you discard and deck yourself more often.

[FoolofaTook]

Top and Confidant aren't good enough for you?

WW/b

20

18
4 Mother of Runes
4 Savannah Lions
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2 Serra Avenger
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Dark Confidant

22
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Something like that, maybe?

You need Engineered Explosives for tokens and Counterbalance. Sensei's Divining Top is an interesting question, especially playing 8-10 fetches and just 3 Scrublands and a basic swamp as the black mana, there could be a lot of opportunity to search there. This, BTW, with the addition of Dark Confidant is starting to lean over the dangerous edge of being a full two color instead of splashing black into a white weenie shell. 15 black spells starts looking like a weaker version of Sui Black, even though the white count is a lot higher.

Maybe this:

4x Figure of Destiny
4x Savannah Lions
4x Dark Confidant
3x Jotun Grunt
2x Serra Avenger

2x Ajani Goldmane/Elspeth Knight-Errant
2x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Vindicate
2x Engineered Explosives

4x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal therapy

4x Flooded Strand
3x Windswept Heath
3x Polluted Delta

3x Scrubland
1x Swamp
5x Plains