[Deck] Vial Affinity

[kicks_422]

But what do you board out to side in Grips? Workers?

[4eak]

@ kicks_422

what are the targets you have in mind for Krosan Grip to arrive at these claims?

Good targets:

-Counterbalance/Top
-Vedalken Shackles
-Moat
-Humility
-Ghostly Prison/Propaganda
-Powder Keg
-Pernicious Deed
-Engineered Explosives
-Nevi's Disk
-Survival
-Dreadnought
-Chalice
-Crucible of Worlds

(yes, I know a few can drop'n'pop without passing priority after they resolve)

Beyond just listing targets, here is the argument for Krosan Grip:

Legacy control decks, which make up a huge portion of the competitive decks that are played, are artifact and enchantment oriented decks. Every one of them is really attempting to resolve their big artifact and/or enchantment and create massive card advantage through it.

DE effects prevent that card advantage and control, and if resolvable, it is the most relevant answer to any control deck in Legacy (LD is also quite powerful). Blue-based control strategies are innately hard to metagame against because they can use permission to overcome whatever hate you bring in against them. Here is where Krosan Grip is so powerful.

Split Second DE is the biggest kick in the nuts to control, not just because it kills their precious CA-generating controlling artifact or enchantment, but simply because they really can't stop it. It has changed the way control decks operate, and it will continue to shape Legacy.

Seals or Naturalize is clearly worlds behind the value of K-grip in the sideboard. When you side in K-Grip, you are back in the aggro role because you don't need to worry nearly as much about baiting counters, slow rolling, etc. Other cards used to answer control, which don't have split second, are so inferior that many aren't even worth playing (even if K-Grip didn't exist).

While Needle can do things KGrip cannot, it is also generally less potent, it is counterable, one can play around the card, and it gives up a serious information advantage. KGrip can sandbagged, and that makes it even more potent against the metagames where Vial Affinity merits play.

But what do you board out to side in Grips? Workers?

Depends. I'd usually do Enforcers before workers. There are several cards you can remove.


Also, if you really wanted to play E-Canon type combo hate.sideboard, but still wanted KGrip, you'd need to adjust that landbase, dangerously.

4x Seat of the Synod
4x Vault of Whispers
4x City of Brass
3x Ancient Den
3x Tree of Tales

No DSCit can be viable in certain metagames.

Then your side can go:

4x CotV
4x E-Canon
4x KGrip
3x ... (needle or Meddling mage probably)


peace,
4eak


P.S. Damnit GreenOne, I'm freakin' typing here. =) I almost don't need to even respond.

[kicks_422]

Thanks for the replies. I've only picked up the deck recently after realizing that it would be a long time until I'm able to save up for all the duals/fetches for RGB Goblins, so I might need a few more pointers.

How about removal? Doesn't the deck need it? Maybe it's just me overreacting after a Zoo player plopped down a Kataki on me...

[GreenOne]

4x CotV
4x E-Canon
4x KGrip
3x ... (needle or Meddling mage probably)

E. Canon is useful only vs combo: Control decks can play counterspells and cantrips in your turn and other thing in theirs. Plus they can even play some artifact like SDT or EE. Aggro decks either play instants (Goyf Sligh) or are based on loads of creatures and play vial (Gobbos). Bad news in both cases.

If you want some 2cc hate against combo, just play Thorn of Amethyst. It's easier on the manabase (cause you're not always going to have a white mana on turn 2) and makes it more difficult for the opponent to remove it (needs 1 more mana for the bounce spell/serenity/spree). It's actually better than the Rule of Bear critter even against control decks.

I'd play some sort of graveyard hate in that sideboard too.

P.S. Damnit GreenOne, I'm freakin' typing here. =) I almost don't need to even respond.

Yeah, I'm taking advantage of the time zone GMT+1 rocks!

[Kilz88]

In the past weeks of testing e-canon, have found that she really doesnt do anything better than, oh, thorn of amethyst or cotv. It just dies more often because it can be swords. So with that in mind, you can play grips, one of those colorless combo hate cards, needle, and something else. I feel like needle is very important. I side it in very regularly.

[4eak]

@ kicks_422

How about removal? Doesn't the deck need it? Maybe it's just me overreacting after a Zoo player plopped down a Kataki on me...

Executioner's Capsule is a possibility, but answering Kataki is really not something Affinity can do consistently. Luckily, Kataki is a very rare card to encounter (and so is non-Goyf Sligh zoo).


@ GreenOne

E. Canon is useful only vs combo

Aye. That is what I said in my past two posts.

kicks_422 seemed interested in playing E-Canon, and if I was going to play E-Canon (which would only be in metagames where I expected a few combo decks and felt mostly secure against the rest of the metagame), then I'd use my suggested sideboard. That is an unlikely metagame.


@ Kilz88

In the past weeks of testing e-canon, have found that she really doesnt do anything better than, oh, thorn of amethyst or cotv. It just dies more often because it can be swords.

I pretty much test against 3 different variants of ANT and TES as my combo matches. All other combo decks have really faded from my gauntlet. So, I can only speak from that experience. This matchup is ugly. When I am playing ANT I still have a 60% chance to win against Affinity partners who have boarded in combo hate, even those who board in 12 or more spells. This number becomes even worse when ANT predicts artifact-based hate, because it plays Hurkyll's Recall, and that destroys us.

CoTV is definitely the strongest card against both of these decks as it prevents a stable mana-base both before and especially after AdN resolves. Of course, we need more than just 4 cards to answer combo. 8 is the bare minimum, and I really don't feel safe below 12.

E-Canon is easy to answer. Creature and Artifact hate both hit it. Conversely, it is a lock piece that actually has legs, which means they have fewer turns to answer you.

Against ANT/TES, I think E-Canon is probably stronger than Thorn of Amethyst. These decks can still generate enough mana to chain spells in the same turn, even through ToA. The 2nd turn drop issue is what really makes E-Canon more powerful. ANT already had one turn to generate mana (which is the only real strength of ToA over E-Canon), and if it didn't go off 1st turn, then you should be ready for ANT to resolve on 2nd turn (the turn after you drop your piece). In this position, E-Canon is actually a stronger card.

ToA, of course, is colorless. I can't deny how important that feature can be, but I'm not sure it answers ANT/TES well enough. E-canon, if it resolves,



peace,
4eak

[Ssbm Rocks1]

How is this list?

1 Blinkmoth Nexus
2 Darksteel Citadel
1 Ancient Den
1 Tree of Tales
3 Glimmervoid
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Seat of Synod

4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Arcbound worker
4 Frogmite
4 Ornithoper
4 Disciple of the vault
4 Master of Etherium
4 Myr enforcer

4 Thoughtcast
4 AEther Vial
4 Springleaf drum
4 Cranial Plating

Side:
3 Ethersworn cannonist
3 Krosan grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing needle
3 Duress

I have an unknown meta and I just combined a few lists and came up with this. What should I change? Thanks.

[Zappa]

I am just wondering if Arcbound Worker is pretty much set in stone as being in the deck. I was wondering coz there's a few cards I was curious about to be in its place and having the same mana cost.

Roterothopter - 1cc flyier that's a pretty good target for Cranial Plating.

There other one I was just curious what you guys think. What's your opinion on Heap Doll?

I see new lists running green and some running white. Is red no longer a good choice?

Since i tend to deplete my hand really fast anyways. Do you think there's any room for adding Cursed Scroll to take out cards like Kataki?

[4eak]

@ Ssbm Rocks1

Where do you play Duress? I think Cabal Therapy or Chalice of the Void are stronger than Duress in almost any match where I'd board them.

You need to improve the mana base. I don't recommend playing below 18 land, and I think you'll have a hard time playing some of your colored spells. You have 4 lands and 4 drums to play either green or white spells. If you play both green and white in the deck, then you'll need to sacrifice cards like Blinkmoth Nexus and Darksteel Citadel to make those colors more playable.

Again, I would suggest something like:

4x Seat of the Synod
4x Vault of Whispers
4x City of Brass
3x Ancient Den
3x Tree of Tales


@ Zappa

I am just wondering if Arcbound Worker is pretty much set in stone as being in the deck.

He's hard to replace. While you can board him out, I don't think either Roterothopter or Heap Doll are nearly as strong in the main.

Is red no longer a good choice?

Red is not as powerful now that Master of Etherium changes how we build the deck and given our need to answer powerful control cards with disenchant effects. Maximizing artifact counts and having access to K-Grip are the reasons I don't play red anymore. Others will always play white because it not only gives us DE effects, but it also allows us to play E-Canon for the combo match.

Red (or any 4th color) probably means we can't afford to play Darksteel Citadel. This is a metagame call. If you don't see a ton of wasteland/p-Deed, then it is quite possible to go red. I know there are several matches where I would love to board in Shrapnel. Unfortunately, I'm not able to remove DSCitadel at this time.

Do you think there's any room for adding Cursed Scroll to take out cards like Kataki?

I don't think the card is worth it. Answering Kataki is a nightmare. I'd rather play Darkblast or something cheap and instant. You need to be untapped and have the answer in hand if you have to answer Kataki.


peace,
4eak

[GreenOne]

I am just wondering if Arcbound Worker is pretty much set in stone as being in the deck. I was wondering coz there's a few cards I was curious about to be in its place and having the same mana cost.

I was thinking the same thing, but for one single colorless mana we can't have some lackey-type of creature. However, Heap Doll or Dreadnough could be worth it in some metas.
I wonder if anyone did ever test Brass Gnat, Myr servitor or even brass man and straw golem. Seriously. Well, seriously about gnat and myr

Also we can consider some candidate in the 2cc slot too, like Arcbound slith, Arcbound Stinger, Myr retriever, epochrasite and painter's servant.

[4eak]

Worker is hard to replace because he is a building block in the ramp of Affinity. His +1/+1 remains on the board after he dies, he's an artifact, he's colorless (which is important for a 1cc). The dude is pretty awesome in Affinity when compared to all the other 1cc creatures in the game.

Pithing Needle is the only card worthy of replacing Arcbound Worker, but that card doesn't merit play in the main. It is not a 1st turn play in the 1st game, and that is a necessary attribute of a 1cc card in Affinity.

If you really want to replace him, I think that Painter's Servant/Grindstone seems stronger than Heap Doll, Slith, etc. I suppose you could change it up and go for:

3 Painter
3 Grindstone
4 E-Tutor (which I really don't like in the deck)
1-4 E-Canon

Chrome Mox/Somber Hoverguard might be a worthy aggressive replacement if you really don't want Arcbound Worker in the main:

Mana Base: 20
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Tree of Tales/DSCitadel
4 Glimmervoid/CoB
4 Chrome Mox

Creatures: 28
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Frogmite
4 Ornithopter
4 Master of Etherium
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Somber Hoverguard

Spells: 12
4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating
2 Aether Vial
2 Springleaf Drum

This is a hop, skip, and a jump to AfFOWnity, but Chrome Mox is still in the domain of aggressive aggro-combo. We don't use the card because the card disadvantage, poor top decks, and disintegration of deck consistency usually isn't worth the explosive 1st turn mana made available through Chrome Mox.

I haven't found these options to be as powerful, but as I said, I think it is very difficult to replace Arcbound Worker in the main. Resilient and bomby Vial Affinity is consistent and inevitable. Worker is part of the building blocks to that ramp, and removing him affects the consistency and resilience of the deck.

I will be testing Epochrasite in his place. Epochrasite is a decent 2cc candidate, and it doesn't deserve to played until 4x Enforcers are in the deck, but perhaps it could replace Worker.




peace,
4eak

[GreenOne]

For reference, here's the list I built some time ago of Painter's Affinity:
// Lands
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Ancient Den
2 [7E] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [DS] Arcbound Worker
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [MR] Ornithopter
3 [MR] Myr Enforcer
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant

// Spells
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
3 [TE] Grindstone
4 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [FNM] Seal of Cleansing
SB: 4 [OV] Hydroblast

You can build you SB with silver bullets due to the enlightened tutor maindeck. This version was not that bad.

[mans0011]

Worker is hard to replace because he is a building block in the ramp of Affinity. His +1/+1 remains on the board after he dies, he's an artifact, he's colorless (which is important for a 1cc). The dude is pretty awesome in Affinity when compared to all the other 1cc creatures in the game.

Pithing Needle is the only card worthy of replacing Arcbound Worker, but that card doesn't merit play in the main. It is not a 1st turn play in the 1st game, and that is a necessary attribute of a 1cc card in Affinity.

If you really want to replace him, I think that Painter's Servant/Grindstone seems stronger than Heap Doll, Slith, etc. I suppose you could change it up and go for:

3 Painter
3 Grindstone
4 E-Tutor (which I really don't like in the deck)
1-4 E-Canon

Chrome Mox/Somber Hoverguard might be a worthy aggressive replacement if you really don't want Arcbound Worker in the main:

Mana Base: 20
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Tree of Tales/DSCitadel
4 Glimmervoid/CoB
4 Chrome Mox

Creatures: 28
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Frogmite
4 Ornithopter
4 Master of Etherium
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Somber Hoverguard

Spells: 12
4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating
2 Aether Vial
2 Springleaf Drum

This is a hop, skip, and a jump to AfFOWnity, but Chrome Mox is still in the domain of aggressive aggro-combo. We don't use the card because the card disadvantage, poor top decks, and disintegration of deck consistency usually isn't worth the explosive 1st turn mana made available through Chrome Mox.

I haven't found these options to be as powerful, but as I said, I think it is very difficult to replace Arcbound Worker in the main. Resilient and bomby Vial Affinity is consistent and inevitable. Worker is part of the building blocks to that ramp, and removing him affects the consistency and resilience of the deck.

I will be testing Epochrasite in his place. Epochrasite is a decent 2cc candidate, and it doesn't deserve to played until 4x Enforcers are in the deck, but perhaps it could replace Worker.




peace,
4eak

I guess I just don't see why we're wanting to take cheap robots out of this deck and replacing them with other than things with legs. I can see epochrasite in the main, but I wouldn't cut arcbound worker for anything main in any version of aggro affinity. I mean, he's not a savanah lions, but like you said, he helps get the ball rolling. And you can still equip a cranial plating to him.

[4eak]

@ mans0011

I guess I just don't see why we're wanting to take cheap robots out of this deck and replacing them with other than things with legs. I can see epochrasite in the main, but I wouldn't cut arcbound worker for anything main in any version of aggro affinity. I mean, he's not a savanah lions, but like you said, he helps get the ball rolling. And you can still equip a cranial plating to him.

I hear ya.

Cards improved by Arcbound Worker:

Arcbound Ravager -- +2 Modular, Scaling Pump effect, Good interactions
Disciple of the Vault -- The more the merrier, and worker is a common first card to benefit from dying because we know we don't actually lose the damage on the board.
Frogmite -- Modular, Affinity Factor
Ornithopter -- Modular (common target)
Master of Etherium -- Modular, Scaling pump effect
Myr Enforcer -- Modular, Affinity Factor
Springleaf Drum -- Common tap target
Cranial Plating -- Scaling pump effect

Cards that improve Arcbound Worker:

Arcbound Ravager -- Unique in that if Worker dies with Ravager's Modular, then those get passed on a second time
Master of Etherium -- +1/+1 to all other artifact creatures adds up
Cranial Plating -- The more targets for this card the merrier.


Worker has so much synergy with the deck. It looks small on paper, but it has massive effect overall. I'd wager, on average, Worker nets 2 damage by himself and an additional 2-3 damage in synergy. He's a powerful synergy investment for such a cheap cost.

I think he's the equivalent in power of a cantrip effect in Threshold. The card isn't amazing, but it is pretty hard to stitch the deck together properly without the card.





peace,
4eak

[mans0011]

@ mans0011



I hear ya.

Cards improved by Arcbound Worker:

Arcbound Ravager -- +2 Modular, Scaling Pump effect, Good interactions
Disciple of the Vault -- The more the merrier, and worker is a common first card to benefit from dying because we know we don't actually lose the damage on the board.
Frogmite -- Modular, Affinity Factor
Ornithopter -- Modular (common target)
Master of Etherium -- Modular, Scaling pump effect
Myr Enforcer -- Modular, Affinity Factor
Springleaf Drum -- Common tap target
Cranial Plating -- Scaling pump effect

Cards that improve Arcbound Worker:

Arcbound Ravager -- Unique in that if Worker dies with Ravager's Modular, then those get passed on a second time
Master of Etherium -- +1/+1 to all other artifact creatures adds up
Cranial Plating -- The more targets for this card the merrier.


Worker has so much synergy with the deck. It looks small on paper, but it has massive effect overall. I'd wager, on average, Worker nets 2 damage by himself and an additional 2-3 damage in synergy. He's a powerful synergy investment for such a cheap cost.

I think he's the equivalent in power of a cantrip effect in Threshold. The card isn't amazing, but it is pretty hard to stitch the deck together properly without the card.





peace,
4eak

Agreed. And I promise promise promise I'll get back to our discussion about non-classical (read modal) logic and all that fun stuff when life catches up with me. I've got a lot to fill you in on, actually. ^^

[GreenOne]

Well, actually epochrasite has maybe a greater synergy with the deck:

Arcbound Ravager --Scaling Pump effect, Good interactions
Disciple of the Vault -- The more the merrier, and Epo is a common first card to benefit from dying because we know he's coming back even stronger in some turns.
Master of Etherium -- Scaling pump effect
Myr Enforcer -- Affinity Factor
Cranial Plating -- Scaling pump effect

Cards that improve Epo:

Arcbound Ravager -- You can sacrifice epochrasite and have the same amount of power on the table, but in some turns you'll have a 4/4 Deed-proof beater.
Master of Etherium -- +1/+1 to all other artifact creatures adds up
Cranial Plating -- The more targets for this card the merrier.
Aether vial -- More targets in the 2cc slot, makes a beast instead of a vanilla 1/1

Epochrasite also offers resilency against wrath effects and is, indeed, a good chumpblocker.
I don't know, I never thought about removing worker, but Epo seems a lot better for just 1 colorless more on paper.

I tried a couple matches on mws with this list:
// Lands
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
2 [AN] City of Brass
4 [MR] Tree of Tales

// Creatures
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [MR] Ornithopter
4 [MR] Myr Enforcer
4 [ALA] Master of Etherium
3 [FUT] Epochrasite

// Spells
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
3 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip

And epochrasite shined, making about 4 to 12 damages in every game I drew it. I played against MUC and The Rock.
Obviously, If you decide to play Epo, you need 4 vials.

[mans0011]

Epochrasite is good on paper, and he's 2 colorless, which is delicious. But it's still not coming out 'til turn 2 at the earliest, turn 3 if we want the beast. I've always had a little niche in the back and side of my heart for epochrasite, just never been brave enough to run him.

[GreenOne]

Do someone have time to test it in place of Worker? I firmly believe it doesn't belong in the Enforcer slot, but maybe in the workers'..
Unfortunately I don't have time and tourneys in sight to make some testing, is someone willing to do it?

[4eak]

Forgot to add Thoughtcast to the Affinity factor list.

@ mans0011

Agreed. And I promise promise promise I'll get back to our discussion about non-classical (read modal) logic and all that fun stuff when life catches up with me. I've got a lot to fill you in on, actually. ^^

Sweet. =)

Epochrasite is good on paper, and he's 2 colorless, which is delicious. But it's still not coming out 'til turn 2 at the earliest, turn 3 if we want the beast.

Exactly the problem. If he cost 1 mana, even with a smaller recursive effect, then I would have less of a problem. By not having Worker to play on turn 1, we have problems casting our Affinity spells on turns 2 and 3.


@ GreenOne

Well, actually epochrasite has maybe a greater synergy with the deck:

I can guarantee he doesn't have greater synergy. But, I totally agree that Epochrasite's recursion is very powerful in certain matches. Replacing Arcbound Worker with Eprochrasite is a certain decrease in synergy, but the sacrifice is for a stronger mid and late game. To me this seems like a reason to play Epochrasite in the side though.

Do someone have time to test it in place of Worker? I firmly believe it doesn't belong in the Enforcer slot, but maybe in the workers'..
Unfortunately I don't have time and tourneys in sight to make some testing, is someone willing to do it?

I've tested him before, but I replaced Enforcer instead of Worker (it seemed the natural slot to test). It needs to be tested in Worker's slot though.

I'll be testing your list and perhaps I'll try +1 Epochrasite -1 Drum as well.


peace,
4eak

[MartinV]

I have been starting to play some legacy with my affinity deck and i really like it. I have been to two tournaments until now and ended with a bit of luck t8 in one of them, but u would like some comments on my deck. My deck until now is:

// Lands
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [MR] Ancient Den
2 [8E] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [9E] Ornithopter
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [DS] Arcbound Worker
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [MR] Myr Enforcer
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
4 [MR] Somber Hoverguard

// Spells
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
4 [MR] Thoughtcast

The last 2 slots where until now just some fillers, nothing important. The Ancient Den slots are depend on what i run in the sideboard. What i am planning to replace the Hoverguards with Master of Etherium. The Hoverguard was nice until now, because of the flying, but i want to replace it with a cheaper artifact (to much dependend on blue with master and its not an artifact). The flyers i found until now are Arcbound Stinger and Roterothopter. Does someone here have experience with any one of those, or have other options for the last to slots?

Thanks in advance :)