If something works, it works, but I don't really see CtS being faster than morphling. When I would drop a morphling, I would make sure that I would have three mana available at least in order to use its own ability and then for a counter, for example...under a similar principle I will need to make three additional drops to protect my massive seven mana investment.
I haven't tested CtS, so this is off the cuff, but I did spend years playing morphling and more playing efreet and I can say with a conviction that lots of the time with draw-go styled decks when you drop your creature, you are going to win 98% of the time, because you drop your creature when your opponents has almost been completely run out of steam if not entirely run out of steam. A lot of the time with muc, you could be winning just as easily with a fucking mistform ultimus as a mahomati djinn, morphling or CtS token.
The thing that honestly concerns me about CtS tokens is that you need to pitch a land to bring one back if you fail to protect or don't want to and it costs seven fucking mana. Sure, you can wrath or deed away a morphling, but considering the game that muc plays, your opponent is going to be needing a lot of support to push a wrath or deed in the latest possible part of the game versus muc before the four swinging turns.
I don't really care either way, but with the energy that some people that have been replying to this thread are known for putting into arguing their diamond in the rough tech, just let it be and wait for them to win a GP with it. Honestly, it isn't worth the effort because it is impossible to convince someone that you are arguing with that they are in fact wrong most of the time unless they are honestly a truely exceptional example of a human being.
Morphling, CtS, Meloku, Oona, spire golem(very underrated), efreet or mahamoti: who gives a fuck? Run whatever works for you. When you win an big event with your ultra-tech, then you can shit all over everyone that is used to running the good old standbys because they have been proven to work for years and years and people might have simply been attached to them. Until that day though, people should be more respectiful towards people that are trying to communicate why a card like morphling has been one of the most heavily played kill cards. Why bother to ask people why it is good, IBA? Seriously, man, you fuckin' know why it is good. It has been good for that very reason since sixth edition rules hit the masses. Just agree to disagree on it. To someone that has very, very little interest or time invested in this thread and archetype at this point, but understands how it works extremely well(ie: me) the longevity of this debate is ridiculous. People have stated their points. All either saide can do now is wait for results or produce their own.
-It could be about four of anything and I would agree.Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
It would be unbelievably awkward if you just played Morphling and they Wrathed it away and then the game lasted for many, many more turns because you were no longer able to actually kill your opponent.Given several control cards, like EE/Academy recursion, an opponent can make the game last for many, many more turns than it normally would.
Why is your draw-go deck getting into a damage race?
edit:
Part of the reason you have to be able to show a permission spell after playing a Morphling is because you have to actually care if you untap with the Morphling or not.If something works, it works, but I don't really see CtS being faster than morphling. When I would drop a morphling, I would make sure that I would have three mana available at least in order to use its own ability and then for a counter, for example...under a similar principle I will need to make three additional drops to protect my massive seven mana investment.
The main point here is that if you're playing a card that's only good when you've basically won already, you don't want to open yourself up to losing because all of a sudden the other guy's sweepers stopped being blanks.
This is dumb. People can win tournaments with bad lists; that's not to say the lists can't be improved.When you win an big event with your ultra-tech, then you can shit all over everyone that is used to running the good old standbys because they have been proven to work for years and years and people might have simply been attached to them.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
It at least gives tangible results as opposed to anecdotal information in a very confrontational package, which is pretty much lost on whoever they are trying to benefit with is.This is dumb. People can win tournaments with bad lists; that's not to say the lists can't be improved.
Maybe I am just weary of the entire needing to draw a land thing after a morphling gets succesfully wrathed. I admittedly play exclusively on mws, but I see mostly either targeted removal or EE all day...I don't see wraths.The main point here is that if you're playing a card that's only good when you've basically won already, you don't want to open yourself up to losing because all of a sudden the other guy's sweepers stopped being blanks.
Based off of the small wedge of the pie that I play, a lot less will and has gone wrong with a morphling than something like meloku, which as far as vulnerability to removal is concerned, might as well be a cts token.
It comes down to preference mostly in my opinion.
-It could be about four of anything and I would agree.
@ frogboy
Well...my draw/go deck isn't usually in a damage race. But, when I do play draw/go without Factory's, there are definitely times when I am in a damage race.It would be unbelievably awkward if you just played Morphling and they Wrathed it away and then the game lasted for many, many more turns because you were no longer able to actually kill your opponent.
Why is your draw-go deck getting into a damage race?
Going to time in game 3 happens really does happen (although, this is most common in control vs control matches). This is one of the risks of bringing a hardcore control deck like Draw/Go to a tournament. It is a damage race at times. Forcing through a win condition and winning on the spot is sometimes the only shot you have of winning the match. I know you've had times where it was make or break, you had Morphling in hand and 5 land, you've dropped it defensively, stabilized the game with just him, and then won before your opponent could recover. Few win conditions can claim to do that.
In control matches, I don't think MUC has a difficult time surviving to the late game. The question is really can you win before it is too late. Morphling is about winning while you have the opportunity to do it. It doesn't waste time, and that still matters. Is Morphling unbelievably faster than CtS? Not by a crazy amount, but by a few turns absolutely. Those few turns can definitely make the difference.
Most importantly: Morphling abuses the temporary windows of stability that MUC creates, and CtS really doesn't. Once you've untapped with Morphling, you've probably just won. There are games that you only have a short window of time to drop a threat before an opponent could recover, and Morphling does a better job in this role than CtS. Morphling crystallizes your stability and allows you to convert to the aggro role more effectively than CtS. CtS has inevitability, but if you've played with the card, you'd know it really does take a lot longer to win the game than several alternatives.
With all that said, I'm not completely against CtS. The card is very good. I just don't think CtS dethrones Morphling in most cases. If you really are less concerned about going to time or have less need for the tempo-oriented plays to be made from cards like Morphling, then by all means, play CtS.
peace,
4eak
IBA I think you have to get over the idea that speed of kill condition can be measured in mana investment. Once you have 7 plus mana available it becomes irrelevant that dealing 5 with morphling has an upkeep of 2. What is not irrelevant however, is the fact CtS costs 7 and thus 2 more than morphling. Have you ever come across a situation where you couldn't safely outtap for CtS with 7 lands in play? I have very often and in those situations I have wished it were morphling but I'm stuck waiting with CtS in hand for either force or land number 9 so that I can ply it safe.
Edit: And before you circumvent the argument... let's assume you can't outtap for fear of lethal burn to the face.
These things can all be said about Call the Skybreaker as well. If the opponent has another removal spell, you can just activate shroud again. If we don't have a counter, it doesn't matter what win condition we're using. The Elemental can't deal with Tombstalker either. If they cast Hymn to Tourach, then it sucks for us. Sure, you can retrace Call the Skybreaker next turn, but how many turns do you want to tap out to get a creature into play?
What if you don't have a land to discard? What if you don't get to seven mana? What if you're killed before you can play your elemental? What if it takes so long for you to get Call the Skybreaker to stick that you go to time? We can throw out hypotheticals all day. You say that you want to win games faster, but then you recommend playing a slower win condition.
Call the Skybreaker gives you inevitability, sure. But it requires so much more investment than Morphling.
I'm not telling you not to play it, but I've tested enough with Morphling that I know that it works. A lot of other people in this thread have too. I don't know what else to say to re-prove over ten years of people playing this creature in blue control decks.
Go ahead and play Call the Skybreaker, I'm going to stick with Morphling.
I'm not all that experienced with this deck, so take the following with a grain of salt, but here are some random questions and minor insights:
1. On the argument on CtS: maybe it's just me, but in drawn-out games, especially in the control mirror, I sometimes find myself in the situation where I'm down to my last win condition (losing the others to FoF, FoW and in rare cases my opponent's removal) and have to make unfavorable plays to protect it. Admittedly, this situation doesn't come up very often at all, but all else being equal I'd feel safer with at least one copy of CtS in my deck.
2. Speaking of win conditions, the variant with EE can conceivably support a singleton DoJ off of a plains. Just try to fetch for it early on to prevent awkward FoF piles. At the very least, it'd break the mirror match in half.
3. Is Accumulated Knowledge really as bad as some people claim it is? If Wizards printed an instant that drew 2 cards and cost 1u, this deck would immediately play 4. From that point of view, only the first copy of AK would be considered subpar (assuming no graveyard removal from the opponent's side). The second through fourth are awesome cheap sources of card advantage and work great with FoF (imagine flipping two AKs with one in the graveyard). I think it at least merits testing in versions that have Brainstorm to find the other copies.
4. To the people who sideboard Vendilion Clique: how good is it in your experience? Does it improve the matchup against storm combo enough to make it winnable? Is it useful against any other decks? I really don't know what to think of this card.
Yes it can, both being 5/5 flyers. As long as you can draw into lands, you can keep making an army of guys to overcome their Tombstalker(s).
That's the whole point.
Then you're doing it wrong.
Then you probably shouldn't be playing MUC. If you're comfortable casting Morphling without having mana open to defend him, then you're doing it wrong.
I've found Morphling to be slower than CtS. With CtS, you can work yourself out of creature-based stand-stills (where you need to keep a blocker open, etc. It's rare, but it does happen) simply by Retracing it over and over until you overwhelm the opponent.
Not really, when you look at Morphling's actual costs.
I don't think that anything should ever replace Morphling.
But I do think CtS could be a fine replacement for Rainbow Efreet. Efreet never kills anything, it can't be pumped to absorb trample damage. It's not much of a threat
The only reason it's there is as a threat that simply can't be gotten rid of, even with Wrath effects. CtS serves an identical purpose. Plus, CtS doesn't fold to counters to boot, unlike both Efreet and Morphling.
P.S: I haven't ever tried CtS, this is all theory. So I could well be wrong.
How come no one is really bringing up Meloku? I thought that he Just. Wins. Games. ? Or was that just standard/black of 2005/6?
See that's just false. Morphling requires a grand total of 3 mana to be relevant every turn. Why? Because that's five flying damage every turn, and not too many decks out there play flying blockers in the first place (and don't even try to argue that you won't have three mana. It takes a minimum of five mana to just play Morphling in the first place).
Anyway, things Morphling can do that CtS cannot:
1. Attack and block the following turn. CtS can only do this if you have a land and seven open mana. Morphling would require 4, assuming you played correct and made it a 5/1 with flying the previous turn.
2. Exist on its own without further card investment. CtS is recurring, its true, but its recursion is limited to the number of lands you have to discard and the number of times you want to tap out to play the damn thing again. All I've heard about this is "bla bla bla you should have excess lands" but that argument can apply to Morphling as well. If you have that many lands, Superman is basically unstoppable.
3. Win faster through resistance. Assuming you need to win as quickly as possible, Morphling will come down turn 6 (with a mana open to defend it), and win on turn 10. CtS will come down on turn 7, be vulnerable to every kind of removal imaginable, and kill on turn 10 assuming your opponent literally did nothing and you retraced CtS a second time in the interim. Morphling can easily win through resistance, CtS requires significantly more time to do so entirely because of how vulnerable the individual tokens are.
4. Make your opponent struggle to stall a game. CtS can be stolen through stuff like Threads of Disloyalty, Shackles, Sower of Temptation, Control Magic, blown up by Engineered Explosives, killed by just about any non-red targeted removal, and bounced. How much of that is Phling vulnerable too? None. That makes stalling against it very very hard. This is extremely relevant against decks like Threshold that will be trying to squeeze those last points of damage in against you when you drop a win-condition hoping to create a quagmire in the red-zone.
Both cards are equally vulnerable to mass-removal, although to be frank, I don't think I've ever had a Morphling killed by anything other than a Diabolic Edict (which was irrelevant, because I had the second Phling and killed him the following turn). Seriously, it's not at all difficult to conserve countermagic for cards like... Wrath, which is played in one common deck (UWx Landstill), Humility, which only shows up in UWx Landstill as well, and Pernicious Deed, which is rarely if ever saved for Phling.
The major difference between the two with regards to Mass-removal is that CtS will come back afterwards. Yes, this is true, but as I said before, it's also extremely vulnerable to literally every kind of removal there is and will force you to go time much more than Phling will simply because of how easy it is to stall with.
In addition to the aforementioned reasons, Morphling is also better than CtS when you haven't won yet. With 7 mana, which is the minimum to play CtS, it can essentially block and kill anything. With a bit more mana it can attack and block and kill anything. I've actually won games by having 10+ lands out and being able to attack and block Dreadnaught in addition to having Morphling survive. CtS wouldn't have worked there because Dreadnaught tramples over, which given the prevalence Dreadstill in my metagame is quite relevant.
I have never once found a situation where all of the hypothetical things that CtS could do better than Morphling have actually come up. No one plays mono-white control (except for you, Jack) and by splitting your win-conditions between Morphling and CtS, you essentially remove any weaknesses to mass-removal that might've existed against say, Landstill. Landstill also has Extirpate coming out of the board, and considering the only coherent argument I've heard for CtS is that its better against control, having it be extirpated against Landstill and then promptly losing because of it seems... well bad. Diversification is good, and Morphling is the best overall win-condition available because of its versatility, speed, and complete immunity to targeted removal.
In Standard no one could tap a white and kill your guy, then play more threats and attack you. Or at least if they tapped a red and killed your guy, you got to swipe their best animal.
False trump. Any deck that actually wants to kill you with DoJ can remove an in-play EE with only a mild amount of effort.2. Speaking of win conditions, the variant with EE can conceivably support a singleton DoJ off of a plains.
Do people actually whine about the clock and play worse cards instead of just learning to play faster? That baffles me.
Right, because Morphling is completely safe in this situation. You can shroud him! Well, once at least. Come on, have some intellectual honesty.Assuming you need to win as quickly as possible, Morphling will come down turn 6 (with a mana open to defend it), and win on turn 10. CtS will come down on turn 7, be vulnerable to every kind of removal imaginable
I think you need more than 23 lands for either Morphling or Skybreaker but apparently people hate making drops so whatever. Meanwhile, if you're for some reason racing, is the other guy actually going to be able to beat dragon-go every turn?1. Attack and block the following turn. CtS can only do this if you have a land and seven open mana.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
Once is better than none, last time I checked. And in my experience, once is almost always enough, because most opponents will actively attempt to get rid of removal in their hands if they can against this deck. Why? Because for all intents and purposes, it's dead against us.
Edit:
Maybe that won't be able to deal with dragon go, but that's assuming that you actually have that many lands to pitch, which given that you're racing, you might very well not have. It also costs more mana and more cards to make that work than just using Morphling, which matters when your individual threats (the tokens themselves) can be killed by almost anything aimed their way.
And for the record, I play 25 lands at minimum... so yeah.
Well, instead of being kold to double spot removal spell or anything nontargeted, you could just start trading your lands for their spells.Once is better than none, last time I checked.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
On speed:
"Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast".
Morphling can be faster than CtS. It's also easier for it to be dealt with and leave you with nothing for a dozen turns. CtS is a turn or two slower in the ideal situation, but you know what? CtS is never going to give you up. It's never going to let you down.
@Tao: I think the problem here is that you're trying to compare Morphling to CtS on aspects other than the one that gets either of them consideration. There can be absolutely zero dispute from serious individuals that CtS offers more inevitability than Morphling. Morphling has no way of ducking counters or discard or non-targeted removal, and no way of coming back if any of those things happen, or if you have to tap out for whatever reason and he gets double, even triple Swords'd; it's not like decks have a lot else to do with their creature removal.[/@Tao]
I can't answer to what people see on MWS. Wrath, Deed, Warren's Weirding, let alone Counterspell and Thoughtseize, aren't too rare in real life.
If you're reduced to saying, "I'm not going to argue about this anymore", then you're conceding from the debate, if not the actual underlying point. That being said, maybe you'd be better off not posting such on this forum at all, since the entire purpose of it is informed discussion in pursuit of knowledge.
I have no idea where you think that you simply crush other control decks, so you don't need to worry about that matchup, but you don't. If anyone wants this demonstrated, we can go on MWS. Most other control decks have ways to deal with counters, their own card advantage, and more importantly, threats that are harder to answer than Morphling. Eternal Dragon and Decree of Justice in particular. God forbid you should ever have to play against an MBC variant.
Also, can people stop gerrymandering the argument?
Are we talking about the scenario where we're trying to seal the deal? Then I'll say CtS is better because there's no worries about removal being more than a one-turn speedbump.
Are we talking about the scenario where we're racing off the top? I'lll still say CtS for the above.
Are we desperately staving off some threat? I'll say Morphling is better here if you're at more than four but less than seven mana. Afterwards, CtS, because if you're still drawing lands instead of that Shackles you need to deal with a lone Tarmogoyf, CtS will keep you alive. Also, it can realistically take out a Tombstalker the same turn it's dropped.
Do we have counters or not? If we have sufficient counters around to deal with whatever the enemy produces, then we do. If we don't have sufficient counters, then Morphling and CtS can both die and be countered. But only one stays dead.
I personally wouldn't use counters to protect CtS 80% of the time. I'd save them for preventing the opponent from doing anything and let my excess lands be threats.
The benefit to CtS is in the late game, it means that every card you draw is relevant, whether land or spell. You run 24 land. How many removal spells do they run?
Not to mention the scenario where we Fact or Fiction or TfK early on and want to discard the clunky kill condition.
This gerrymandering is ridiculous. You say that Morphling is better because you always have counters to protect it with while winning the game, but CtS is terrible because you sit there with nothing while it dies. What is the actual scenario here?
Also, do you drop Morphling with no mana open, or one, or two, or three, or what? The answer I'm currently getting is, "I use magical powers to know what's ideal for this situation and act accordingly". Which is fantastic to have when your big scary kill condition eats it to Lightning Bolt.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
And I would say that you're being naive if you think you will always have a land to pitch. Or the ability to tap out every single turn to spit out another vulnerable 5/5. Morphling is also faster, as I've been saying this entire time and you've been gerrymandering around, which is equally important when you are trying to seal the deal.
And I'll say Morphling because it can deal with any singular threat just as well, if not better, than CtS, and doesn't rely on drawing lands off the top (cards you don't want at this point) to be good.
Have you ever actually read Morphling? You do understand that Morphling can easily deal with a single Tarmogoyf AND still attack at the same time? Same thing applies to Tombstalker. Seriously, is it that hard to understand that Morphling has essentially limitless toughness once you get to 8+ mana? Between that and the fact that Morphling can also kill a Tombstalker the turn it comes down, I'd say this entire point is flat-out wrong.
This is probably the only advantage CtS has over Morphling, and it isn't enough to justify cutting the more powerful win-condition for it entirely. A split between them sure, but not entirely.
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not saying that. I'm saying that Morphling is better because it require no other cards to be good, it's faster when you need it to be, and it is completely invulnerable to targeted removal. Yes, Phling is worse against Mass-Removal, but for all of the aforementioned reasons, it would be a mistake to cut them entirely for CtS.
Lightning bolt is an irrelevant argument because CtS is even worse against decks that play burn precisely because of how slow it is. And because those are exactly the decks that will simply spend two removal spells to kill the token and swing through for the win because of how those matchups.
I have dropped Morphling with no mana open once in sanctioned play, and that was because my opponent had no hand and I had double FoW in hand. In more standard situations, I drop it with anywhere between 1 to 3+ mana open depending on how many cards my opponent has in hand and how much removal I believe them to be playing. When both numbers are greater, I wait. When they're lower, I play it earlier.
So if you're waiting until you have between 6-8 mana available, how exactly is Morphling faster than CtS?
6 is less than 7, yeah? Morphling also doesn't get blown away by Swords to Plowshares, Snuff Out, or any number of targeted removal spells that would slow CtS down, so Phling will likely still be faster in matchups where it actually matters because he can't be stalled by the aforementioned cards.
The sort of situation where the relative speed of a win-condition would actually matter is usually one where you're under significant pressure, either on the board or on your life-total, and you don't have the kind of time to wait until you have 8 mana, regardless of which card you're playing. In that situation, I'll take Morphling any day of the week because it is extremely hard to stall and does not require you to invest counterspells to protect it from targeted removal when they (your counterspells) will almost always have better targets.
These matchups are also almost never control matchups, where mass-removal would actually be present on the other side of the table. That combination of factors makes CtS weaker than Morphling because its harder to cast, takes longer to exercise its invulnerability, and is easier to temporarily remove to allow for quick little bursts of damage that usually result in a loss when playing against Aggro or Aggro-Control.
In what way is it faster? There's no way for it to be faster without playing into removal.
This is grossly incorrect and displays an unwillingness to be serious. Morphling is worse against Tarmogoyf, against Tombstalker, against Gigapede and Demigod, against Master of Etherium, against Eternal Dragon, and against any other large creature, which increasingly make up the creature base in Legacy.And I'll say Morphling because it can deal with any singular threat just as well, if not better, than CtS, and doesn't rely on drawing lands off the top (cards you don't want at this point) to be good.
Oh, we're at the eight mana stage. That's good to know. I thought we were talking about who's good early on? Morphling is usually a Shrouded Hill Giant the turn it comes into play, but yeah, if your'e already winning the game by the time you untap, if you untap with it, with eight mana open, whoo. Arguably better than Call the Skybreaker then, I tell you howdy.Have you ever actually read Morphling? You do understand that Morphling can easily deal with a single Tarmogoyf AND still attack at the same time? Same thing applies to Tombstalker. Seriously, is it that hard to understand that Morphling has essentially limitless toughness once you get to 8+ mana? Between that and the fact that Morphling can also kill a Tombstalker the turn it comes down, I'd say this entire point is flat-out wrong.
Of course, you need nine mana to have Morphling block, kill a Tombstalker, live, and not eat it to a Snuff Out/StP somewhere along the way.
Ten mana if they have two removal spells.
Well, eight untapped Islands.I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not saying that. I'm saying that Morphling is better because it require no other cards to be good,
Although, lots of people have found 5/5 flyers to be already good, but you seem to be operating under your own definitions here.
It never seems to do these two at the same time.it's faster when you need it to be, and it is completely invulnerable to targeted removal.
Answer me how much mana you have open to protect Morphling when you drop it, because this point seems to be like nailing jello to the wall. It's very frustrating, you understand, that you keep dropping Morphling much faster than CtS, going the distance each turn while always having mana open for Shrouding or counters where needed, since this isn't how the card seems to work in my time zone.Lightning bolt is an irrelevant argument because CtS is even worse against decks that play burn precisely because of how slow it is.
For two removal spells, they could take out Morphling if you had less than 7 Islands when you cast him.And because those are exactly the decks that will simply spend two removal spells to kill the token and swing through for the win because of how those matchups.
The biggest distinction between CtS and Morphling there is that Morphling doesn't require targeting since he can't block a real threat that turn without dying anyway.
So you usually drop it the same turn as CtS, when it's still in your hand, when it's not countered.I have dropped Morphling with no mana open once in sanctioned play, and that was because my opponent had no hand and I had double FoW in hand. In more standard situations, I drop it with anywhere between 1 to 3+ mana open depending on how many cards my opponent has in hand and how much removal I believe them to be playing. When both numbers are greater, I wait. When they're lower, I play it earlier.
Why is it faster than CtS?
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
You're making the mistake of assuming an opponent will always have 9001 removal spells. They won't. And as you've said repeatedly, if you try to play against your opponents god hands, you can't win, especially with a control deck.
This is false for the same reasons I've stated over and over again. You know why people hate arguing with you? Because you dodge opposing points by rubbishing them without actually providing a single legitimate reason why they're invalid. How, exactly, is Morphling even remotely worse against large threats? It can easily block them and live, all the while still attacking through (this requires a grand total of maybe 5 mana if all you care about is getting damage through will still being able to block). For comparison, CtS requires 7 mana, a land, and can't attack throughout this process.
I repeat, you're making the mistake of assuming your opponent will always have a ton of removal. They. Will. Not. For two reasons: First, most decks do not play a ton of removal in the first place. Second, decks like Threshold will actively attempt to shuffle their removal away looking for more relevant cards.
No, I don't find vulnerable 5/5 fliers to be good. Especially 5/5 fliers that require you discard lands to bring it back, which you continuously assume you will have a limitless supply of. I find that hard to believe because, I don't know about you, but I like to make my land drops with this deck. That means I usually don't have a lot of land in my hand. This makes Morphling better, and CtS worse.
It requires a single mana open the turn you drop it. Stop acting like people haven't said that before, and stop trying to claim that Morphling isn't faster than CtS is in that situation. Swinging on turn 7 is faster than swinging on turn 8. If you disagree with that, I don't know what to say to you.
And you can't even cast CtS on turn 6 anyway. I'll give the advantage to Morphling there.
Because it doesn't get stalled by cards like StP, Snuff Out, Vedalken Shackles, etc. Which, in case you haven't noticed, are pretty prevalent.
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