[Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

[Jason]

I really do like the list 4eak proposed earlier... The only question I have is why have a random Swamp to get EE to 3? Why not run 1x Volcanic Island? It seems that red would be a better "splash" for sideboard purposes. Plus it won't hurt in hitting UU if it is in your opening hand (Swamp can be annoying)...

The decklist could look something like with emphasis on the sideboard:

4x Brainstorm
4x Fact or Fiction

4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
3x Mana Leak
3x Spell Snare

3x Vedalken Shackles
3x Engineered Explosives
3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Back to Basics

1x Morphling
1x Decree of Justice
1x Eternal Dragon

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
10x Island
1x Plains
1x Volcanic Island
2x Tundra
1x Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
2x Dismantling Blow
2x Blue Elemental Blast
3x Propaganda
3x Pyroclasm
2x Red Elemental Blast
3x Relic of Progenitus

The Red Blasts could strengthen the control matchups or stop Stifle if necessary. Pyroclasm and Propaganda would help the goblins matchups; they would also go together and help a little for the ichorid matchups. Dismantling Blow is there if your opponent is playing something annoying like Choke or Humility. I think this would be a better "splash" than black. What does everyone think?

[mackaber]

The Red Blasts could strengthen the control matchups or stop Stifle if necessary. Pyroclasm and Propaganda would help the goblins matchups; they would also go together and help a little for the ichorid matchups. Dismantling Blow is there if your opponent is playing something annoying like Choke or Humility. I think this would be a better "splash" than black. What does everyone think?

Boarding in cards you are splashing off of 1 dual and a total of 9 sources versus goblins seems very suicidal. Also you can't board red blast too well off the single volcanic versus decs that have wastelands which incidently an aweful lot of blue decs have. Also I don't like the fact that your running 4 non basics with b2b md. You also have to consider that this dec is more mana hungry than pretty much any other dec and thus loosing but a single land to b2b can hurt considerably, also eternal dragon's recursion is turned of completly under B2B.

[4eak]

@ Jason

I really do like the list 4eak proposed earlier... The only question I have is why have a random Swamp to get EE to 3?

Clearly the 3rd color could be a dual land, which does help for fetching. However, it might be difficult to keep that third color for EE's through opposing Wastelands or your own B2B locking you out.

Why not run 1x Volcanic Island? It seems that red would be a better "splash" for sideboard purposes.

I'm not convinced Red is a real splash beyond EE. I think White is the only realistic splash for spells in MUC (awkward to call it MUC).

3x Swords to Plowshares

Doesn't this make you cry inside? The card really deserves 4x if you are going to play it at all.

1x Plains
1x Volcanic Island
2x Tundra
1x Academy Ruins

Academy Ruins was "okay", but not amazing. Because it is mana intensive, I found the card most usable in the late game only. This is problematic when I want to have B2B in play.

You need 2x Basic Plains minimum to make Eternal Dragon viable. I suggest 3x because it allows you to eat a Sinkhole and because it gives you more Cycling use of Eternal Dragon.


@ mackaber

Also I don't like the fact that your running 4 non basics with b2b md.

Even if he ran 8 non-basics, MUC would still have a much larger ratio of basics to non-basics than most decks.

You don't need to be immune to B2B to benefit from it. You just need to be hit less than your opponent by B2B to break its symmetry. Jason's list breaks the symmetry of B2B by a large margin.




peace,
4eak

[Zappa]

Took me awhile reading all these pages
Some interesting debates about card choices.

I went to my local card shop several days ago and bought the cards to pile a deck together for mono blue controll. From what I've gathered from reading all the pages that pretty much combo (TES/Fetchland tendrils) and fast aggro decks can be a real problem, due to our lack of speed and being unable to drop a fast clock (and trying to protect it after wards) once the oppnent has been slowed down.

Therefor what I was wondering about is is it a possibily to run more free counters, backed up by mass card draw to replenish the lost cards? The decklist I piled together is the following:


Lands (24)
23 Snow-covered Islands
1 Scrying Sheets

Finishers (3)
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
2 Guile

Board Controll (11)
4 Propaganda
3 Back to Basics
4 Vedalken Shackles

Counter Magic (15)
4 Force of Will
3 Foil
4 Daze
4 Counterspell

card Draw (7)
4 Fact of Fiction
3 Cryptic Command


SB: 1 Back to Basics
SB: 4 Arcane Laboratory
SB: 3 Mana Maze
SB: 3 Powder Keg
SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus


The one non-basic land I chose to run is a scrying sheets, if I get it great if not oh well. But when it is out it can help build up a nice card draw.

I decided to run 15 counter magic, 11 of which are free counters. Not so much as to counter everything, but just the key cards that poses a threat.

I decided to run Guile instead (I know Morphling is probably much better by a long shot). But with the amount of counter magic, I was thinking that he isnt too shabby either. Atleast its pretty hard to remove, as well as putting a blockade on some peoples plans. Like those attempting to win with brain freeze, painter's servant, and/or jace.

What's your opinion on running snow lands and using 1 scrying sheet?

[Waikiki]

i'd change daze into force spike or spell snare. Losing a land drop just sucks in MUC.

[4eak]

@ Zappa

What's your opinion on running snow lands and using 1 scrying sheet?

While I'm not so concerned about losing the ability to tap this card for mana when B2B is in play, I am concerned about whether you would get to use its draw ability when you play B2B in the main.

Like Academy Ruins, Scrying Sheets is a mid to late game type card that conflicts with B2B. You can abuse one or the other. To avoid this conflict, non-basics in MUC need to be early game non-basics. Quicksand is a decent example.

If you run Scrying Sheet at all, then you probably want to be running 4 of them. Additionally, in order to maximize Scrying Sheets you really need to be running Top.

If I was only running 1 or 2 of these card advantage/quality generating non-basics, I would definitely play Ruins before Scrying Sheets. I'd play Mishra's Factory before all of them though. That card rocks in the early game and it gives you additional win conditions and a better match against several decks.

4 Daze

Tell me about this choice. The loss of a land drop seems unacceptable at such an important stage of the game.



peace,
4eak

[Mordel]

Forcespike/Disrupt/Spellsnare is a no-brainer for a version that packs a heavy permission suite. I could be wrong, but I think daze being in there is more of a result of the aforementioned three being forgotten, as opposed to passed-over for daze.

[Zappa]

Well I just piled the deck together with no testing yet. Thats how it looked like. But after today, I had my friend play test with me and heres the problems I ran across...

I played against:
Affinity
White Weenie
Landstill
Burn
Ichorid-combo... this one is just... how do I win this? o_o


While the deck is packed with free counters I must say that trying to stop a spell with daze early on is a HUGE set back. Even if I can protect against next upcoming threats with Foil and Force of Will. After alot of play testing today... Daze gets a huge NO for me. You guys were right, its bad for the deck, or atleast for this build.

One thing I did notice is that I feel very secure with Foil and FoW backing me up. However, unlike FoW, using Foil makes me in a dire need for card draw.
Which is one of the questions I have...

Which instant speed draw would be best to replenish the hand?
Accumulated Knowledge?
Also would using discard outlets like masticore (Either one) combined with foil, warrant the use of the card "Obsessive Search"?
Or will that just make the deck trying to go in all sorts of different direction and just end up being unfocused?

As far as Scrying Sheets go, all my games I've never gotten a chance to use it, let alone even see it. So I don't know, however, you guys make a very good advise that with back to basics I won't really be able to use it.

But from testing...

Daze - Hate it, it really set me back big time. The loss of that land made it harder for me to respond to incoming threats even with foil and FOW back up.

Foil - I love this card, but really needs a good card draw backing it up.

Scrying Sheets - ...meh... never saw it, can't say anything. But will take your advise and not run it.

Crytic Command - as a counter its so-so. As a draw its so so, as for its versatility... I don't know I don't see mono blue control as the type that likes to be cute and tricky.

So what I am wondering if I can get some help with is... heres the new open slots:

Lands (24)
23 Snow-covered Islands
1 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Finishers (3)
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
2 Guile

Board Controll (11)
4 Propaganda
3 Back to Basics
4 Vedalken Shackles

Counter Magic (15)
4 Force of Will
3 Foil
4 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
4 Counterspell

card Draw (7)
4 Fact of Fiction
3 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

SB: 1 Back to Basics
SB: 4 Arcane Laboratory
SB: 3 Mana Maze
SB: 3 Powder Keg
SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus

Also... has anyone tested out the card "Mark of Eviction" to buy and stall time against fast creature decks?

[4eak]

@ Zappa

Ichorid-combo... this one is just... how do I win this? o_o

You don't win often against a good player. Crypt or Relic/Propaganda/Keg are your best cards, but even these won't make it a favorable matchup.

One thing I did notice is that I feel very secure with Foil and FoW backing me up. However, unlike FoW, using Foil makes me in a dire need for card draw.
Which is one of the questions I have...

Which instant speed draw would be best to replenish the hand?
Accumulated Knowledge?

I don't particularly care for Foil myself. The card disadvantage and conditions to play it in conjunction with how it rips up your early game hand (which is where you need this card the most) makes its value a toss-up in my testing.

You are forced into play raw card advantage just to overcome the drawbacks. If you go for something similar to Kadaj's permanent MUC list (which you have), then you'll need to play Ancestral Visions. Since your deck isn't scared to tap out in the main phase, then this is probably your best option.

Also would using discard outlets like masticore (Either one) combined with foil, warrant the use of the card "Obsessive Search"?
Or will that just make the deck trying to go in all sorts of different direction and just end up being unfocused?

Masticore doesn't belong in the deck. There are much better options. Obsessive Search isn't nearly as powerful as Ancestral Visions, Brainstorm, or even Ponder.

Crytic Command - as a counter its so-so. As a draw its so so, as for its versatility... I don't know I don't see mono blue control as the type that likes to be cute and tricky.

MUC is definitely tricky. This card is probably sick in Standard, but it isn't undercosted and fast enough to be playable in the main of MUC. I could see a Wish board pick up a singleton, but nothing more.

I think the card just costs too much. It isn't game breaking like a disk, a win condition, or a FoF. It is versatile at first glance, but when you take into consideration the mana cost, I think it is actually a very restrictive card.

Lands (24)
23 Snow-covered Islands
1 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Just stick to 24 plain Islands for now. That seems oversimplified, but playing straight basics has raw strength that is difficult to adjust in this deck. Tweaking your mana-base is probably the last thing you do with a deck.

2 Guile

I wasn't so impressed with this guy in testing. I think you should consider trying out a few other options.

Counter Magic (15)
4 Force of Will
3 Foil
4 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
4 Counterspell

You are playing permanent-MUC. I don't think you should be as concerned with your permission as you are with the board itself. Those 4x permission slots need to be Powder Keg.

You cannot afford to play MUC without an artifact board clearer in main (I see Kegs in your side). Your options:

EE
Nevi's Disk
O-Stone
Keg

Considering the rest of your deck, Keg is the best option for permanent lists. If you choose to run something like Disk, then you'll need to adjust the rest of the deck to comply with its universal destruction (i.e. fewer permanents).

Also... has anyone tested out the card "Mark of Eviction" to buy and stall time against fast creature decks?

I haven't tested it, but just from reading it I can tell you that MUC has much better options.

Until you feel more comfortable and experienced with permanent MUC and its role, I suggest just picking up something like Kadaj's list in the first post of the thread and playing it. I wouldn't try to adjust it until I had a lot of practice.




peace,
4eak

[Jason]

Crytic Command - as a counter its so-so. As a draw its so so, as for its versatility... I don't know I don't see mono blue control as the type that likes to be cute and tricky.

Yeah. Cryptic Command is versatile and I find it lackluster most of the time. The card, however, does find ways to shine. The ability to either counter or bounce or fog for one turn is too powerful for me to take out altogether. I do find myself using it as a bounce+draw a lot for those enchantments that hit play and shouldn't have. Running more than 2 is iffy at best. I run 1 and that has been good for me. That way I do have an out against Humility, but I'm also not seeing a bunch of 4-costing counterspells all the time. If you choose not to run Command, I do suggest having some sort of bounce spell in the main deck in case some dumb enchantment does sneak its way into play...

[4eak]

I do suggest having some sort of bounce spell in the main deck in case some dumb enchantment does sneak its way into play...

I think Powder Keg handles most of these cases.

While I don't recommend bounce in permanent-MUC, for Draw/Go I know that Echoing Truth is a much stronger card than CCommand.


peace,
4eak

[Carabas]

Powder Keg only hits Artifacts and Creatures.
The four bounce effects I've seen control use are Echoing Truth, Wipe Away, Capsize, and Rushing River. Are there any others that would be considered in permanent-based MUC, and of all the choices, which are best?

[4eak]

@ Carabas

Powder Keg only hits Artifacts and Creatures.

Aye.

The list in question didn't play Keg in the main, which is why it relied so heavily upon CCommand to deal with junk. I was saying that in most cases if a permanent comes into play that is problematic, I'd usually Powder Keg to deal with it instead of a bounce spell. Obviously, if we are only talking about enchantments, then Powder Keg is useless (which is why I said 'most of these cases', hopefully pointing to permanents and not just enchantments).

Still, a singleton bounce may or may not be worth it in the main of permanent lists. I think B2B does more to decks with problematic enchantments than a bounce spell (especially if you are relying up eventually drawing a singleton bounce spell).

In any case, I recommend Echoing Truth, then Capsize, and then Wipe Away if you are playing bounce.



peace,
4eak

[Doks]

And what about Repeal?
People nearly always forget about it. But it's too strong - if you want to run bounce in any way - in a format whose CC is mostly ranged from 1-2.
It buys time, does the same job like other bounce (admitted, no good against multiple Tokens like Truth, but then bounces Morphs / Moxes etc. for only U) but not creating any carddisadvantage.

[4eak]

@ Doks

And what about Repeal?

Repeal isn't good in MUC for a couple reasons:

1.) It is mana inefficient. All too often you will be bouncing things with CC's higher than 1-2.

Assuming a cantrip effect costs U, X is the cost of our bounce effect. The point at which X is greater than the cost for a standard bounce spell with a similar effect (Boomerang, although it hits land) is the point that this card becomes mana inefficient for its effect.

2U or below makes it a worthy card. Anything you wish to bounce with CC above 2 is the point at which Repeal is actually not as mana efficient. The closer X is to zero, the more efficient the card becomes...The moxen in vintage demonstrate the efficiency of this card by breaking that fundamental 1 mana for 1 card ratio, allowing you essentially draw for free and increase your storm by 2. Clearly, Repeal is not nearly as relevant in this sense. Legacy MUC won't be bouncing moxen, sometimes it will need to bounce much larger things. The mana inefficiency of this spell is problematic to its inclusion in MUC.

2.) Repeal doesn't generate the raw mana and tempo of other bounce spells.

Bounce (in MUC) exists to Time Walk, or more specifically, to buy tempo. Buying tempo could be as simple as forcing them to recast a spell, and as powerful as the wiping away EtW tokens with Echo. Obviously, it isn't strictly removal.

Other bounce with a single cast cost have the benefit of predictable mana cost and gaining mana-based tempo. A 5cc permanent in play is wiped out by a 2cc bounce. My 2 mana bounce bought me a turn and 5 of my opponent's mana. If repeal was trying to hit that 5cc, I would have spent equivalent mana (6cc for bounce+draw), simply buying me a turn.

Bounce, like the actual card Time Walk, is really only at its best when you are casting other spells and doing other things with the tempo you've bought. Because of repeal's possibly prohibitive costs, it actually may prevent you from gaining any further tempo than just a turn. It isn't like you bounced a card and dropped a shackles with the extra mana you have...you usually tapped out to play that repeal, and thus you didn't gain mana-based tempo.

Now, if one would argue that repeal would never target something above 2cc, then it might be worth it. Additionally, because of the U cost (for the cantrip effect), it does come online a turn later than the average spell for each turn; this is assuming each player is maximally abusing the standard mana curve each turn (1, 2, 3, and so on). Meanwhile, other bounce spells are online and ready to gain tempo and at any point in the game.

I would argue that Repeal is similar to Spell Blast. The spell is permanently "dazed" against opponents tapping out to play spells in the early game. Bounce is most useful in the early game, not the late. Repeal isn't a good enough early game bounce spell, and that matters.

Echo is much closer to time walk, it deals with tokens (which matters), and allows you to play other spells on the same turn (so, you can Echo+FoF or whatever). Although Repeal draws a card, it lacks where it counts for bounce spells in MUC. I think even CCommand is stronger than Repeal.




peace,
4eak

[mackaber]

Lol. Repeal is an awesome control spell, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. It's never dead since at the very least it will maintain card parity. Usually it equates to bouncing something and paying U to draw a card. Since oftentimes cheap spells will slip under your wall of counter it's rarely gonna cost more than 2 or 3. Compared to Capsize or god forbid rushing river which are suposedly there to create tempo (When bouncing spells that cost 4 or mana? Sacing lands in MUC? Come on you got to be kidding...).
While Capsize at least has the plus side of being a powerful lategame tool it's rarely gonna create tempo. Another delicous and funky bounce spell which maintains card parity and functions as the ultimate swiss army Knife is Cryptic Command. Altough people around here say it's too clunky... maybe they should test it to taste a bit of it's awesomeness.
On a side note both repeal and Cryptic command are staples in extended, the format which is most like legacy.

[4eak]

@ mackaber

Repeal isn't a terrible spell; in the overall scheme of cards and formats (as you pointed out), it is a great spell. It just isn't very good in Legacy MUC, especially compared to the alternatives.

Play it enough, and you'll see that X-cost bite you in the ass too many times.

When I'm bouncing, the card draw isn't what I need MUC, I just need the raw tempo for 1U. I usually have a real answer in hand, I just need time to play and use it.

Capsize can generate tempo (that is what bounce does). It may not be as good at it if you can't pay the buyback cost, but it does have mid and late game staying power. I think the card is serious tempo against decks the same quantity of raw threats to play in the late game. If you've tested the card, you will find times where you'll just repeatedly capsize for a few turns until you've trounced your opponent in card advantage. I'd still run it before I'd run Repeal.



peace,
4eak

[Doks]

It is mana inefficient. All too often you will be bouncing things with CC's higher than 1-2.

Although Repeal draws a card, it lacks where it counts for bounce spells in MUC.

That's maybe your experience, but - as mackaber said - early things that slip through your permission usually don't cost more than a mere 2 mana.
You really like to Echoing Truth a Tarmogoyf for CC 2 more than Repealing it for 3 and drawing a card? Repeal keeps it's strength just like Spell Snare does compared to Force Spike.
And what the heck is bad when you're repealing a Humility for 5 with plenty of land out? If they really try to counter it more than once - cool, play another one and then ride to win with your killcondition you now resolve because they don't have the counter anymore?
Repeal saved my ass many times, not only in MUC, but control in general. WUBS or the former aggressive U/R version of Landstill gained much use out of it.
In addition, CC3 might bounce a CB better than CC2.
And once again, I can't tell you how often players run into Repeal like mad with their Chrome Moxes / 1st turn red Akroma morphs / Chalices @ 2 etc. being heavily disrupted (sometimes even gamebreaking) by my single U from a lonely Island repealing their whole result of a explosive 1st turn that draws me a card as an extra.

[elof]

Hey all!

First of all, I'm new to the forum and I'm from Sweden so my english may be a bit off from time to time, so I beg you pardon for that and will try to improve it.


I have followed this thread for quite a long while back and I have a question that I think could be worth considering and that is Blood Moon instead of Back to Basics. I will try to give you an idéa of what I have thought about.

Playing Blood Moon instead of Back to Basics has some impacts on your deck and I have tried to list what I have come up with:

* The first and obvious one is that you have to splash red. While this may not be a bad thing, it does require a sight adjustment of the mana base. If we say that a normal MUC-list have 23 Isands, I would suggest that a Moono-Blue Control would have something like this:
14 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island

The number of Volcanic Islands is depending on if you play any other red spells maindeck/sideboard and I think it could be as low as 2 copies, 1 would probebly be to risky.

* Splashing a color often means playing with fetch and alot of you guys already do this. The effect on playing fetches means that we now safely can play Brainstorm again but it does also me that we open up for Stifle and Wasteland. If Wasteland is a real probem then I would suggest going for Islands if we fetch early game and save fetches for the moon in as much extent as we can.

* A notice is the fact that while Back to Basics locks down your opponents lands and thus make spells like Force Spike/Mana Leak more viable it does not stop an opponent completly from playing spells. Blood Moon can often do this however, especially an opponent with an aggressive mana base, like Team America that plays "all mountains" when Moon is in play. Team America could recover from an Back to Basics simple by playing to new lands and a Tombstalker/Tarmogoyf, but can't play any other spells than Force of Will if Blood Moon hits the board. This does however make all your fetches into Mountains and thus lowering your amout of Islands in your deck. But with a high count like 14-15 Island this shouldn't really be a problem, should it?

* Another thing about Blood Moon vs Back to Basics is that extra copies of BtB can be pitched to Force of Will while additiona copies of Blood Moon is probebly dead unless you expect it to be destoryed/bounced.

* Splashing red allows the maindeck/sideboard to have some additional answers, for example Red Elemental Blast, Fire // Ice, Pyroclasm/Firespout, Shattering Pulse/Spree and many more. I have thought about playing maindeck Fire // Ice since it gets rid of alot of small creatures and is never completly dead since it cantrips. Ice can also act as a Time Walk against a Phyrexian Dreadnought, Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker. The only downside too this is that we have to fetch early Volcanics (if we want to play the Fire side) and that is painful against an opponent playing Wasteland.

* Blood Moon doesn't do anything to a deck already being red, like Goblins and Imperial Painter, however it does shut down Rishadan Port, Ancient Tomb, splashes (for example RB Goblins) and Mishra's Factory/Mutavault. I also think that Blood Moon is better here than Back to Basics is but I might be wrong.

* Blood Moon could also be replaced with Magus of the Moon. A few notes should though be made when we compare Magus with Blood Moon:
1: Magus is a creature and therefore much easier to remove than Blood Moon.
2: Magus, being a creature, is a wincon and therefor a good clock against any deck trying to find answers to Magus.
3: Magus is not completly dead against an aggro deck because you can play him as a chump blocker before you get Disk/Keg/Shackels online.
4: Magus is not dead in multipels in the same way that Blood Moon is, for obvious reasons.

* A downside is that if an opponent plays Blue Elemental Blast in sideboard, then they have a good answer to Blood Moon. Sadly, BeB is played quite often.



Most of you guys have probebly already consided this before but I thought that it might be worth to re-adress considering that red can efficiently deal with artifacts (such as Phyrexian Dreadnought), blue spells thanks to blasts and swarms of creatures (With Pyroclasm/Firespout) more effeciently than blue can and the colours realy complement each other.


Oh, by the way, if I have done something wrong, please let me know so that I can better myself!

Best regards
elof

[Shimster]

IMO, there is a major difference between Back to Basics and Blood Moon:

Back to Basics allows you to manascrew your opponent, while Blood Moon is only capable of colourscrew him. As most decks run a card to deal with Blood Moon, you've to be able to abuse tempo gained by playing it. B2B on the other hand is control, as it denies your opponent to play spells.

This isn't the deck that's capable of abusing tempo in any way. Therefore I don't like Blood Moon in MUC.