[Deck] Goblin Champions

[GreenOne]

The deck starts with an idea of rufus that was brilliant but never had the proper testing and development. Also, Eseph posted a new combo on the "List of compact combos" thread that seems made with this deck in mind.

The deck is an aggro-combo deck based on the goblin tribal synergy.

The List:

// Lands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [A] Taiga
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
6 [MI] Mountain (4)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
3 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
1 [EVG] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
1 [ON] Goblin Pyromancer
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [ON] Skirk Prospector (or Sledder)

// Spells
4 [MM] Food Chain
3 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 [DS] Trinisphere

My Current List
// Lands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [B] Taiga
3 [PT] Mountain (4)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [OD] Forest (3)
2 [TSP] Gemstone Caverns

// Creatures
3 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
1 [PLC] Stingscourger (or 3rd Piledriver)
4 [US] Goblin Matron
1 [ON] Skirk Prospector
1 [ON] Goblin Pyromancer
4 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
2 [ON] Goblin Piledriver

// Spells
4 [MM] Food Chain
2 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [CH] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter

The combos:
Combo n.1: Kiki-Jiki + Lightning Crafter + Food Chain/Prospector/Sledder

- Play Kiki
- play Crafter
- Put the champion trigger on stack (or you can resolve it if you have something juicy to champion).
___REPEAT___
- Copy Crafter with Kiki.
- Deal 3 to the opponent
- Champion Kiki with the copy of crafter
- Sacrifice the copy of Crafter with your sacrifice outlet
- Kiki comes into play untapped
___END___

Combo n.2: Kiki-Jiki + Lightning Crafter + Sharpshooter (with no sickness)
- Play kiki
- Play Crafter
- Put the champion trigger on stack
___REPEAT___
- Copy Crafter with kiki.
- Deal 1 to the opponent with Sharpshooter
- Tap the copy of Crafter to kill itself
- Untap sharpshooter
- Kiki comes into play untapped
___END___

Combo n.3: Matron + Food Chain
- Play Matron for Kiki-Jiki
- Play Kiki-Jiki
- Copy Matron for Lightning Crafter
- Sacrifice the original Matron for RRRR
___REPEAT x4___
- Play Crafter, championing Kiki
- Sacrifice Crafter with Food Chain
- Kiki comes into play untapped
- Copy matron for Crafter
___END___
- When you have no more Crafters in the deck, Kiki copies matron for Kiki-Jiki
___REPEAT___
- Sacrifice Kiki Jiki with Food Chain
- Play Kiki-Jiki
- Copy Matron for Kiki
___END___
When you have no more Kiki in the deck, Kiki copies matron for Pyromancer. (If you need to avoid manaburn you can just Matron->Matron->Matron->Pyromancer)
- At this point you have like 7-8 hasty copies of matron.
- Play Pyromancer (sac kiki if you don't have enough mana)
- Attack with 7-8 hasty 4/1 Matrons for >20 damage.


Why this over Vial Goblins?
I really don't know if this deck is better than Vial Goblins, but the deck has some potential.

Plus:
- It can combo out of nothing with, say, a Warchief+Food Chain in play and a Matron in hand
- Post side it can play like a chalice aggro deck against things like combo (with proper SB building)
- It can play threats at a faster speed. This deck can play matron on turn 1 and ringleader on turn 2.
- Crafter on its own is a solution to Propaganda, Moat and similars.
- 2/3 of the combos go infinite. This might matter against life.deck I guess.
- With higher cmc cards, a connecting lackey/instigator really messes up with the opponent.
- Possibility of playing Warren Instigator on turn 1.

Minus:
- Doesn't run Vial
- Runs cards that are not huge on their own (crafter, kiki, sledder)
- No creature removal other than crafter

Equals:
- it has the same amount of card drawing of Vial Goblins
- same brokenness of Lackey

Is someone interested in this thing? I'm willing to do some testing, but don't have testing partners atm. PM me if you're interested. Meanwhile I did some matches on mws. I won a game against The Rock, and one against vial gobbos against a bad player. Then won another game against Rock and Elves against a good player.

[kicks_422]

Some dude from MtgSal (Eseph, IIRC) has been performing really well with Legacy FCG. Maybe you could get some tips from him or something.

[GreenOne]

Some dude from MtgSal (Eseph, IIRC) has been performing really well with Legacy FCG. Maybe you could get some tips from him or something.

Thanks. I wondered if there was anything already up.

It's also possible a decklist that features Combo n.1 and n.2 without the need to splash green for Food Chain. This inproves your ringleaders and possibly your ability to go in aggro mode. You can also decide to splash another color this way. You could even re-evaluate vial.

Monored List:
// Lands
2 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
16 [MI] Mountain (4)

// Creatures
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
3 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
4 [US] Goblin Matron
2 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
1 [EVG] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
4 [ON] Skirk Prospector

// Spells
3 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 [DS] Trinisphere

[Illissius]

Might be a dumb question, but is there anything stopping you from playing Food Chain -and- Aether Vial?

[GreenOne]

Might be a dumb question, but is there anything stopping you from playing Food Chain -and- Aether Vial?

It's anti-synergistic (sp?):
- Food chain works well when you have loads of creatures in hand
- Vial works better when you have a smooth curve and a lot of creatures in the deck
- Running both weakens you ringleaders

Here's another list threw carelessly in this thread that it's actually probably better than the others:
Monored with vial:
// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
18 [MI] Mountain (4)

// Creatures
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
3 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
4 [US] Goblin Matron
1 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
1 [EVG] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
4 [ON] Skirk Prospector

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

[georgjorge]

The list and write-up from Eseph can be found here.

I built a somewhat similar "Goblin Stompy", without the combo, a while back. It splashed black for the Banneret (can be better than Warchief with lots of colorless mana), Boggart Mob (champion a CIP Goblin and it's a pretty good beater) and of course Weirding. Wort is also good if you can drop it on the third turn...

[Mordenkaynen]

It seems to me that in legacy version Thorn in main would be better than Chain.
Next note is a stupid one, but if you run green in goblins, it's strange not to have krosan grip or huligan in SB.

[Eseph]

The difference there is that Thorn won't win you the game on turn 2... Thorn is a strong card, but I rarely find that it would be of much use, compared to Food Chain or Aether Vial. And yeah, I would highly recommend either, if nothing else 1 TSH in the main can go a fair way in plenty of matches.

The list I've been running recently looks like this:
4x Taiga
1x Stomping Grounds
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Bloodstained Mire
3x Mountain
3x Ancient Tomb
3x Wasteland

2x Chrome Mox
4x Food Chain

4x Goblin Lackey
2x Skirk Prospector
3x Goblin Piledriver
3x Stingscourger
1x Tin-Street Hooligan
1x Gempalm Incinerator
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Ringleader
2x Lightning Crafter
4x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2x Siege-Gang Commander

SB:
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Aether Vial (for when Food Chain just isn't viable)
4x Krosan Grip
2x Vexing Shusher
1x Goblin Sharpshooter


If I can stress one thing over anything else it's that with the current trend on Team America, and Dreadstill, Stingscourger is probably one of the strongest goblins available to us. Otherwise I'm glad to see someone else working towards this kind of list. I seem to be slowly building some sort of support for it over on MTGSal, but the more people working on improving the list the better chance we have of making something out of it.

How have you been finding Pyromancer? I was considering it, and I like that it provides an alternative combo win (of sorts). In testing I just found that more often than not I'd just rather have another Lightning Crafter when I drew into it. Also your Combo 3 is not something I had considered, as I've never run a full set of them relying on the kiki engine to find infinite. I've been trying to keep access to a regular Aggro Goblin build within the food chain combo, just to provide for another alternate win. One thing I would keep in mind for quick early wins that Kiki's end of turn interactions with Piledriver allow for another turn 3 win.

I honestly think this deck takes far better advantage of Lackey than your average Vial goblins list, An early Kiki-Jiki is capable of wreaking an extreme amount of damage in the early game. And any combination of Lackey + Piledriver + Kiki/SGC is capable of wining on turn 3.

[rufus]

... Also your Combo 3 is not something I had considered, as I've never run a full set of them relying on the kiki engine to find infinite....

Combo 3 was the original concept I came up with, and predates the publication of lightning crafter. It's very likely to be less than ideal.

[GreenOne]

@Eseph
I found a problem to build up the combo when you need a not maximized combination of 3 cards:
4 Kiki + 2 Crafter + 6 sacrifice effect. This means that excluding Matron and Ringleader those are the probabilities of drawing into the combo:
Turn 3=9% , 4=12%, 5=15%, 6=18%
Here are the percentages with 4 Crafters:
Turn 3=17%, 4=21%, 5=25%, 6=29%

So with just 2 slots you almost double the chance of having the combo without tutoring for it. I know that crafter is not huge as a beater, But why play the combo and weaken our slots (compared to Vial Gobbos) with such low percentages of comboing? Also, combo n.3 is not thrilling, but it's a solid one. Without disruption involved you'll have both combo pieces on turn 4 31% of the time.
The good thing about Vintage Food Chain Gobbos is that with no disruption involved you just need Food Chain + Recruiter + 1 mana to win. Here you just need Food Chain + Matron + 5 mana. It's just 1 turn difference (not considering power), even if the combo is easier disruptable. You also have the chance of a turn 2 win with a busted hand

To sum it, I think we either have to give up the combo or to maximize it, cause your weak slot will lose you more games than they win comboing out (like when you draw only 2/3 of the combo). If I had not to play the 3rd combo then I'd take out Food Chain: Prospector/Sledder/Sharpshooter does the job the same way, it's tutorable and it's a goblin.

Pyromancer is not thrilling, but it's solid in the mirror and needed for the combo.

I'd like to hear what are you thinking about this. We probably need to debate wether is better to have a traditional goblin list with the minimum weakest slots or a maximized one (or something in between).

[Eldariel]

If you focus on the combo, you become just a bad combo-deck ('cause you win slow, with relatively weak protection and with disruptable combo pieces). The deck's potential comes from the fact that it's a very powerful aggro deck that requires answers WITH the potential to just combo off when opponent focuses on answering your threats. Food Chain+Matron alone tends to be enough to win. You don't really NEED the combo win when flooding the board with a billion Goblins; you can just turn them sideways.

However, having access to the combo IS important since that means you can win post-combat (for example when using Lackey to get the combo going) and on the spot against all kinds of disruption. However, when you do go for the combo win, you usually get to draw most of your library. That means that you don't need full sets to find them when you need them - therefore, less than maximum is optimal since it improves your normal gameplan when you don't combo off (which happens quite a lot with only 4 Food Chains and all).

Really, it's got the combo-finish, but it's a secondary plan when the primary doesn't work. Turning it into your primary plan removes the primary advantage the deck has in the first place. Combo is disruptible. The aggro plan much less so. Also, both tend to require different answers, at least by and large (as long as there's no Engineered Plague in the deal).

[GreenOne]

However, having access to the combo IS important since that means you can win post-combat (for example when using Lackey to get the combo going) and on the spot against all kinds of disruption.

If your lackey is connecting you're going to win (combo or not) at least in most cases.

However, when you do go for the combo win, you usually get to draw most of your library. That means that you don't need full sets to find them when you need them.

Mmmh, maybe I'm playing the deck wrong. I usually try to assemble the combo tutoring for the pieces or drawing into them. Are you guys trying to go broken with Food Chain (the way recruiter allowed, but with more luck involved)?

Also, both tend to require different answers, at least by and large (as long as there's no Engineered Plague in the deal).

Combo n.1 works with 1 plague on board

[Eseph]

Mmmh, maybe I'm playing the deck wrong. I usually try to assemble the combo tutoring for the pieces or drawing into them. Are you guys trying to go broken with Food Chain (the way recruiter allowed, but with more luck involved)?

That would be it. Though it's still involves tutoring, but the primary reason for including Kiki originally was not for the combo. He was the replacement to recruiter, and he fills the roll admirably, in addition to being just about the most broken goblin around (after lackey). With a full set of Kiki's you can use him with a matron or ringleader, and never worry about hitting a second kiki as you can just remove him to food chain for 6 mana, and play out a second or third for continued activations of his abilities. Not to mention the copies he pumps out remove for full casting cost +1, thanks to them being copies. By piloting this deck more like your average goblins list you might find it flows a tad better, I never complain about seeing any partial piece of the combo, as on their own Lightning Crafter or Kiki-Jiki can do a large amount of damage, and the 2 of them together without a sac outlet can still deal 9 damage from one of your turns to the next, and provide matron or ringleader tricks. That's the main reason I wouldn't run sledder or anything else that really doesn't benefit the entirety of the deck.

When Eldariel says win after combat he's referring to how this deck wins on turn 2, where the only way to do it involves swinging with lackey to drop a matron or Ringleader, then playing Food Chain on the same turn. It's then possible to combo off in the 2nd main phase of turn 2 with the right cards and a bit of luck. This is where I'm trying to improve the deck, I want to maintain the same ability to win like this, or make the turn 3 win consistent, and reduce the "luck" aspect.

[GreenOne]

Not to mention the copies he pumps out remove for full casting cost +1, thanks to them being copies.

Wow, didn't know that. This may change things.

When Eldariel says win after combat he's referring to how this deck wins on turn 2, where the only way to do it involves swinging with lackey to drop a matron or Ringleader, then playing Food Chain on the same turn. It's then possible to combo off in the 2nd main phase of turn 2 with the right cards and a bit of luck. This is where I'm trying to improve the deck, I want to maintain the same ability to win like this, or make the turn 3 win consistent, and reduce the "luck" aspect.

Well, with 3 mana on board on turn 2 and a lackey connecting putting a ringleader/matron into play you should win anyway, combo or not.
I considered a turn 2 win that doesn't involve Lackey. This can actually happen with a hand like: Food Chain, Food Chain, Ancient Tomb, Chrome Mox,, Ringleader, Land and another good gobbo. If you have a matron then ringleader must show a Kiki, a Matron or a Crafter, if you got a Kiki or Crafter, ringleader must show a Matron. Or obviously you can chain Ringleaders until you find those pieces.

I'll try to play the deck as this. It surely may work, and justifies the green splash.

Also, I did notice a thing, and modified Combo n.3.
Now it works in Eseph's version too (with only 1 added Pyromancer), cause it doesn't need 4 crafters any more.
It also deals more than 20 dmg.Check it out in the opening post.

Thanks guys for helping out.

[rufus]

Mmmh, maybe I'm playing the deck wrong. I usually try to assemble the combo tutoring for the pieces or drawing into them. Are you guys trying to go broken with Food Chain (the way recruiter allowed, but with more luck involved)?

One of the things that I don't see discussed here explicitly, but that has the potential to be broken is that the deck can produce serial ringleader effects using Kiki-Jiki copying, champion mechanics, drawing into more ringleaders, and, in a pinch, pulling something with matron -- especially in combination with Food Chain. (Using the champion mechanic does open up the deck to 2 for 1's against instant speed removal, but that's life.)

With 10 or so potential ringleader effects, not counting matrons, the deck can't quite page through itself, but it's close. It seems likely that, even if they don't draw into the combo, the serial ringleaders will threaten a finish on the next turn, or, at worst, burn chaff off the top of the deck.

[Eldariel]

A fairly trivial non-Lackey turn 2 win: Turn 1 Matron, turn 2 Food Chain. Eat Matron, drop Ring, eat Ring, drop SGC*, eat SGC, drop the world, win.

*Not necessary if you can chain draw effects, but makes life easier.

[rufus]

A fairly trivial non-Lackey turn 2 win: Turn 1 Matron, turn 2 Food Chain. Eat Matron, drop Ring, eat Ring, drop SGC*, eat SGC, drop the world, win.

There's also a fragile turn 2 combo #3:
Turn 1
Matron
Turn 2
Food Chain
Eat Matron, Drop Matron (R)
Eat Matron, Drop Matron (RR)
Eat Matron, Drop Matron (RRR)
Drop Lighting Crafter (using chrome mox/spare gobbo), Champion Matron
Eat Lightning Crafter, Drop Kiki-Jiki...

[Eseph]

One of the things that I don't see discussed here explicitly, but that has the potential to be broken is that the deck can produce serial ringleader effects using Kiki-Jiki copying, champion mechanics, drawing into more ringleaders, and, in a pinch, pulling something with matron -- especially in combination with Food Chain. (Using the champion mechanic does open up the deck to 2 for 1's against instant speed removal, but that's life.)

With 10 or so potential ringleader effects, not counting matrons, the deck can't quite page through itself, but it's close. It seems likely that, even if they don't draw into the combo, the serial ringleaders will threaten a finish on the next turn, or, at worst, burn chaff off the top of the deck.

This is pretty much how I've been running my list, rather than explicitly looking for the combo, I'm just looking to give myself the most options as possible while playing out the cards dealt to me. It is Food Chain that makes this deck explosive though.

At this point I don't much think we really need to discuss the number of different combos possible, there are plenty, and that's one of the strengths of the deck. What we should be aiming to do is find a list that's the most effective and reliable. Also what we feel is the most worthwhile way of using the combo in relation to food chain, et all.

[ScatmanX]

I dont know if is worth it to play this over the regular goblin builds, but it sure is a hell lot of fun. Being able to turn the tide with just some lands and Food chain, a matron and a kiki jiki and crafter in hand is awesome. It is, in my opinion, quite dificult to play though, once there are to many options to search, sac, copy, champion, etc...

the list Ive been playing with is this:

// Lands
4 [B] Taiga
2 [9E] Mountain (4)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [TSP] Gemstone Caverns

// Creatures
1 [ON] Goblin Pyromancer
2 [LRW] Changeling Berserker
4 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
2 [ON] Skirk Prospector
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [US] Goblin Matron
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
3 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
3 [ON] Goblin Piledriver

// Spells
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MM] Food Chain

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 3 [EVG] Gempalm Incinerator
SB: 1 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere

I guess is very thight. Changeling Berserker is awesome. Having more cards that champion creatures while Food Chain is in play is awesome. And is a 5/^3 beffy creature.
So, does this has any future?

[GreenOne]

I guess is very thight. Changeling Berserker is awesome. Having more cards that champion creatures while Food Chain is in play is awesome. And is a 5/^3 beffy creature.
So, does this has any future?

Are you sure? I found Berserker quite clunky. It's actually non-needed for any of the combos, and you first need a Matron/Ringleader to get things done with Food chain. But after you played them, it's quite likely to have either Kiki or Crafter in hand to continue the chain. I'd add the 4th kiki before the 2nd Berserker.

I'm tinkering with this list:

// Lands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [B] Taiga
7 [PT] Mountain (4)
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [OD] Forest (3)

// Creatures
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
1 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
1 [ON] Goblin Pyromancer
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
1 [PLC] Stingscourger
4 [US] Goblin Matron
1 [ON] Skirk Prospector

// Spells
4 [MM] Food Chain
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip

This list adds the awesomeness of vial, and almost removes piledriver from the list, with it being a bad card to drop with ancient tombs, and not that good in a deck that plays many more high cc dudes and championing creatures. It's almost never more than an attanking 5/2.