[OLD] UGw Threshold

[Jaiminho]

RE: Chill, it seems like it would be better in Thrash where you're already focused on denying their mana/tempo. Granted, I probably play the deck a little cooler (more controlling) then most people. Which is probably why I'm a fan of Worship.

UGw Thresh is the most controlling version of Threshold. You should start the game as the control deck against almost everything. That granted, Worship still sucks, since it's too narrow, can't be protected against Grips and won't win you the game or anything close to that. Not losing doesn't mean the same as winning.

On a side note, 4 CB maindeck is like... mandatory. Unless your meta doesn't allow it.

[Jak]

So I have always proxied this deck up, played with it on MWS, and always loved playing it since it is really strong. However, I really haven't ever built it. Now, I really want to build it. UGW is obviously the colors I would like to play because it can be adapted to how I want to play, I dislike heavy tempo decks like UGR, and UGB feels really suicidal.

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vedilion Clique
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring

SB
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Hydroblast
3 Rhox War Monk
3 Back to Basics

I really haven't played with Thresh in a while but got the urge to try and build it and put together a list. Problem, I am 3 cards over. With Thresh, I have always tried to make it have a stronger late game so I really like playing with Counterspells. The problem with this now is recently I have a fondness with Clique because it acts as a different form of disruption while being a 3/1 flying powerhouse. I don't understand why more people aren't playing this. So I need to cut three cards, but I should really test it out.

SB is pretty basic except for Rhox War Monk. I have a hard on for this card and I think it is awesome against red decks since decks like Goyf Sligh will usually take out Balance with Grips. Rhox is an unboltable, life gaining, beast. So any thoughts on the list?

[Ciberon]

You have three options. Cut down creatures. Cut down counterspells. Cut down the Sensei + Counterballance.

[Jak]

Yeah, I really need to test before I make any calls. As I said, I haven't played with it in a while and I haven't played with Clique enough.

[Citrus-God]

Yeah, I really need to test before I make any calls. As I said, I haven't played with it in a while and I haven't played with Clique enough.

Clique is basically a counterspell by extension. So cut your Mystic Enforcers; Cliques evade already. You should also cut down on your Counterspells because Cliques serve the same purpose. I'd cut the Enforcers and Counterspells for Predicts actually, because if I'm not running Thoughtseize; I wanna be running a good card advantage spell. Predicts are amazing until you can find Counterbalance, which is good; you have more than just Counterbalance to just produce card advantage.

-2 Mystic Enforcer
-3 Counterspell

+4 Predict
+1 Oblivion Ring

[Ophidian]

UGw Thresh is the most controlling version of Threshold. You should start the game as the control deck against almost everything. That granted, Worship still sucks, since it's too narrow, can't be protected against Grips and won't win you the game or anything close to that. Not losing doesn't mean the same as winning.

On a side note, 4 CB maindeck is like... mandatory. Unless your meta doesn't allow it.

So what would you suggest as a sideboard option? Honestly, I don't care.. I crush that matchup.. but someone was having trouble with it, so I at least gave them a suggestion. Although I find it painfully ironic that the same argument that you use against Worship can also be used against Counterbalance. (Yes I know CB is a better card-- duh, just sayin)

As far as 4 CB being "like... mandatory" I agree, but if you look at the first page of Deckcheck, maybe only 4-5 UGW Thresh decklists run all 4 main. 1 or 2 had the 4th in the board and a couple weren't running CounterTop at all.

Regardless, an overwhelming number had 3 main, granted it seems like most were region-specific (the same people T8'ing their same events)

[Jaiminho]

So what would you suggest as a sideboard option? Honestly, I don't care.. I crush that matchup.. but someone was having trouble with it, so I at least gave them a suggestion. Although I find it painfully ironic that the same argument that you use against Worship can also be used against Counterbalance. (Yes I know CB is a better card-- duh, just sayin)

BEBs should be enough. You'll be able to spare STPs for life gaining when necessary after drawing more removal in the form of blasts.

Now back onto the subject of CB vs Worship. When you have the latter, you can't afford to let your life go down to 1, or you will be dead as soon as the opponent draws a Krosan Grip. This makes it a completely useless card. With CB, it's completely different. Aside from the huge card advantage it's able to provide, it helps maintain your life total in a safe level and also make their board devoid of creatures. This last part does help you win the game.

As far as 4 CB being "like... mandatory" I agree, but if you look at the first page of Deckcheck, maybe only 4-5 UGW Thresh decklists run all 4 main. 1 or 2 had the 4th in the board and a couple weren't running CounterTop at all.

Regardless, an overwhelming number had 3 main, granted it seems like most were region-specific (the same people T8'ing their same events)

I used to run 3 since forever. Only recently I sneaked the 4th in and oh holy mama wasn't it awsome? If your meta is composed of enough F/S Stompy or Stax or other high curve stuff like that to justify not using 4, then simply don't. In any other case, I believe 4 is the best number ever. The decks running 0 are played in a totally different way, so that's a whole other subject.

[Ophidian]

BEBs should be enough. You'll be able to spare STPs for life gaining when necessary after drawing more removal in the form of blasts.

Now back onto the subject of CB vs Worship. When you have the latter, you can't afford to let your life go down to 1, or you will be dead as soon as the opponent draws a Krosan Grip. This makes it a completely useless card. With CB, it's completely different. Aside from the huge card advantage it's able to provide, it helps maintain your life total in a safe level and also make their board devoid of creatures. This last part does help you win the game.




I used to run 3 since forever. Only recently I sneaked the 4th in and oh holy mama wasn't it awsome? If your meta is composed of enough F/S Stompy or Stax or other high curve stuff like that to justify not using 4, then simply don't. In any other case, I believe 4 is the best number ever. The decks running 0 are played in a totally different way, so that's a whole other subject.

Point of clarification before I go back to trolling (because it's not worth listening to platitudes and hyperbole)

I'm not saying take out Counterbalance, I'm saying that there may be some merit to running CB with Worship.

CB provides huge card advantage? Really.. I had no idea
Maintains your life level? Surely you jest!
Keeps their board devoid of creatures? Someone tell Mike Flores to watch his back because someone is obviously hacking into his computer and stealing all of his technology.



Just because I don't post on this board regularly does not mean that I am ignorant to the most basic principles of a tier 1 Legacy deck. I was merely trying to offer a suggestion to someone, I didn't ask for Magic 101.


*back to trolling

[rockout]

Play nice

That said. Worship seems good against burn because how do they deal with a mongoose? However, as Jak said a few posts up, Rhox War Monk is a house in the life gain department. I'd run Rhox over Worship anyway. It's offense instead of playing annoying defense in worship that gets gripped 9 times out of 10. If for nothing else, it deserves testing with Clique to up the 3 cmc spells for CB.

[mackaber]

I haven't tested clique in Grow but I've been running it between main and SB of my MUC dec and it's been great there. And I'm pretty sure it would be even better in grow, preferably in versions sans counterbalance. It's definetly better than enforcer who's been quite a crutch too me recently since the MU where he's at his absolute best (Team America) if you could cast him you've prolly won anyways. Also how come nobody's playing with Pithing Needle (save for the germans). Relic is gonna pop up in more and more decs and needle is really good against them.

[Adan]

So what would you suggest as a sideboard option? Honestly, I don't care.. I crush that matchup.. but someone was having trouble with it, so I at least gave them a suggestion. Although I find it painfully ironic that the same argument that you use against Worship can also be used against Counterbalance. (Yes I know CB is a better card-- duh, just sayin)

Yes, Counterbalance is the better card, it wins you the matchup and is overall the main reason why Threshold is successful and one of the best decks of the format.
Worship does like nothing against any deck in the age of Krosan Grip.

Other decks can handle Worship as well or alternatively Nimble Mongoose (Burning Wish, Chalice, Engineered Explosives come to mind).

As far as 4 CB being "like... mandatory" I agree, but if you look at the first page of Deckcheck, maybe only 4-5 UGW Thresh decklists run all 4 main. 1 or 2 had the 4th in the board and a couple weren't running CounterTop at all.

"Maybe only 4-5"...

Well...

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22065
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22011
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21997
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21470
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21395
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20924
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20909
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20510
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20442
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20440
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20277
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20125
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20038
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18785
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=16310

And the list is going on. You will also be able to find a record of mine from out December Hassloch toruney which I 4-1-1'd with Clemens' build as soon as Clemens/Der_imaginäre_Freund has managed to structure the feature matches and type down the Top8 lists.

Regardless, an overwhelming number had 3 main, granted it seems like most were region-specific (the same people T8'ing their same events)

Even though the last record of mine only contains 3 Balances main and 1 in the SB, the most plausible explanation for this is: people are stupid.
Counterbalance wins games (capt. obv.) and thus it should be played as a 4of-autoinclude.

In the past I also refused to play 4 because out meta was also not appropriate for that (a lot of Stax, Dragonstompy, Ichorid), but the gain you have against the rest of the format is vital.

[rsaunder]

I'm starting to agree that the 1-of enforcer seems a tad bit like a crutch, but I've drawn him sometimes where he just outright wins games and breaks ground battles wide open before my opponent could draw removal. In the landstill matchup, he's an absolute beast both pre-playing (counterbalance countering WOG/humility is nice, but has only happened for me twice in a huge number of games) and after you force him through.

Has anyone actually tested clique?

[Jak]

Yeah, I've played with it a few times on MWS. It's been countered twice, but when it resolved, I grabbed a decree and was able to beat in. It being 3cc was also nice to actually be able to hit 3s more often with balance. Still need more testing.

[Jaiminho]

It seems to me like it could be a powerful weapon against more controllish decks, but a dead weight against faster or more aggressive ones, mostly because of the threat density those decks pack and that a 3/1 will be no threat by itself.

[Obfuscate Freely]

It's definetly better than enforcer who's been quite a crutch too me recently

I'm starting to agree that the 1-of enforcer seems a tad bit like a crutch

Can you guys please explain to me your use of the word "crutch?" I'm not sure what you mean by it.

Mackaber, you mention Team America, and you characterize Enforcer as win-more in that matchup, but I disagree with that. After all, Tombstalker can still beat your skull in regardless of how many lands you have in play.

Enforcer is an extremely efficient and powerful threat, albeit one that sits atop Threshold's mana curve. Despite the relatively high casting cost, the card has won me a lot of games that I would not have won otherwise, and so I want to continue playing it. Where am I going wrong?

[quicksilver]

The only reasonable interpretation to me of using a magic card as a crutch would be to use the card to win matches that you were going to lose but should have won if you played properly. Thus once you know how to play properly you can win without it and it is overkill.

So in their situtation I am guessing that their skill has increased to where they can win certain matchups that he is good in without him and thus think it should be cut for a card to improve other matches.

[Citrus-God]

The only reasonable interpretation to me of using a magic card as a crutch would be to use the card to win matches that you were going to lose but should have won if you played properly. Thus once you know how to play properly you can win without it and it is overkill.

Like Meddling Mage in Thresh against Solidarity from way back when.

[rsaunder]

The only reasonable interpretation to me of using a magic card as a crutch would be to use the card to win matches that you were going to lose but should have won if you played properly. Thus once you know how to play properly you can win without it and it is overkill.

Very well put.

I haven't had all that much trouble with TA yet, especially circumstances justifying Enforcer's inclusion. More often than not I shuffle him away after a top or brainstorm because I don't have the land to cast him. From what I can tell thus far (20 or so matches) that matchup revolves around counterbalance almost exclusively. Resolve one and you pretty much win, unless he can drop 2 or 3 tombstalkers in short order. It should also be noted that I have yet to lose after resolving an enforcer.

I don't know if I'm ready to advocate cutting enforcer for something else yet, but against TA he's damn hard to cast and against almost any other deck he seems like overkill.

EDIT: I'd like to hear what some of the guys from Germany think on the topic. I've pretty much settled on Clemens list with the 17th land; it's so tight and well put together, there must be a reason enforcer's worthy of the MB slot that I just haven't been able to see for myself.

[Obfuscate Freely]

The only reasonable interpretation to me of using a magic card as a crutch would be to use the card to win matches that you were going to lose but should have won if you played properly. Thus once you know how to play properly you can win without it and it is overkill.

So in their situtation I am guessing that their skill has increased to where they can win certain matchups that he is good in without him and thus think it should be cut for a card to improve other matches.

This only makes sense if you replace the idea of "the ability to win a match" with a more complex understanding of "the probability of winning a match," weighed against the increases and decreases in the probabilities of winning other matches that come along with the card choice you're analyzing.

Of course you can win against Survival (just as an example) without Enforcer. And your chance of doing so obviously improves with your playskill and knowledge of the matchup. However, Enforcer remains a very useful card to have in that matchup, and having them in your deck will likely always increase the probability of you winning beyond what it would be if you cut the Enforcers for something that is worse against Survival.

The shorthand method of evaluating a card's value against an expected field of opponents is to estimate the card's value in individual matchups, and then try to roughly factor in the importance (relevence) of those matchups. Whenever I do this, I invariably come to the conclusion that Enforcer is worth running. Do others not?

[nitewolf9]

Whenever I do this, I invariably come to the conclusion that Enforcer is worth running. Do others not?

I know this: I've lost because of mystic enforcer alone more than any other card in threshold, including counterbalance. I do tend to play black-based decks, but with all the other aggro control decks in the format he seems like a pretty huge threat that just happens to be easier to cast when your opponent has an active counterbalance/top.