I've been playing with rishadan ports as a 3x in my former versiona and now I'm testing mutavaults. I'd got to say that vaults offer a little advantage versus some decks ( counterslivers in particular), but I'm not still convinced that they're better than my ol' ports. Sometimes i just realized that a further beater was just unnecessary and i'd rather have had a port to mana-deny my oppo, while other times i won games thanks to mutavault.
What do you guys think about those 2 lands ? Do you think it's possible to find a configuration which packs both ? i was thinking to something like 3 wastes, 2 ports and 3 vaults to add both, but in this case i'd have to cut a waste and i think it's the only colorless land which deserves an automatic 4-ofs; moreover, i don't want to cut too many islands, since we need them to play daze and , sometimes, hardcast Lord. I'm convinced that, without port, the deck loses too much of its strength ( the disruption part) to play more like "goblin-esque " tribe style. On the other side, it's also true, for example, that goblins can afford to play ports because of lackey that cheats mana, while we're not that fast.
I tried to look on merfolks that made top8 on DeckCheck.net and i noticed that many are turning their ports into Mutavaults, while others are still keeping a mixed tuning. However, there's no one still playing only ports without mutavaults, that's for sure, but still I'm not totally convinced.
@ Phoenix Ignition: does really Whirlpool Rider deserve a 2 slots in that deck ? i think they're wassted. I mean, it's surely a good card if you draw it into lategame while you have plenty of dead cards, in hand, but what about having it in your initial hand ? you'd have to shuffle eventual good cards to draw, maybe, some shit. It's too risky IMO, just depending on strokes of luck-or unluck.
Not to consider that he'd always remain a cc2 1/1 (almost) vanilla creature, and i think that , at this point, there are other merfolks with way more interesting abilities.
If i was going to run rider, i would not go over the 1-of. There are way more stronger merfolks (both in body and in abilities) to abuse, rather than that one.
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First, a quick bit of introduction. I’ve been playing Magic for about three years, but have never played any proper Legacy, primarily due to card/opportunity restrictions. But, I live very close to Chicago and this seems like the perfect opportunity. I’m interested in playing Merfolk, so I want to know what you think of this decklist for testing.
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejeray
3 Wake Thrasher
4 Silvegill Adept
3 Cursecatcher
1 Whirlpool Rider
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 FoW
3 Daze
4 Standstill
4 Vial
3 Stifle
10 Islands
4 Wasteland
3 ‘Ports
3 Mutavaults
No idea for sideboard yet. Assuming no major changes in Conflux, what kind of meta do you think will appear at Chicago, and what should I test for sideboard? Thanks!
I think that cursecatcher in merfolk should be a 4x. However, for the sideboad, even if merfolks list tend to be very various in the cards to choose to get in g2 and g3 because of the metagame and of the cards that are more likely to be faced, I'd go something like this:
3 propaganda: goblins and very aggro decks tend to overwhelm us. Ichorid and EtW isn't happy with this, too.
0-1 relics: if you really fear yard based decks.
3 Chill or BEB: against burn, sligh, and , again, against goblins.
2-3 Pithing Needles: versatile aghainst plenty of things.
2-3 Divert: mini-misdirections to be cast against removals/disruption.
2-3 echoing truths: again, these should be sided in against noughts but also that decks against which you're expecting pesky cards ( i think most of all to Moat and Engineered Plague). useful also against stax and stompy, ofc.
Hurkyl's recall: if you're expecting lot of artifact-based lists.
Mind Harness: Since you pack relics MD, these aren't needed anymore that much.
I personally don't like Umezawa's jitte in Merfolks, but feel free to put it in sideboard if you feel the necessity to race aggro and you don't want to use propaganda. What's sure is, don't even consider Seasinger for Sb slots, she just sucks.
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@lands: I used to just run 4 wastes, 3 ports and did well with that strategy. I then obtained mutavaults and ever since I've just run 4 wastelands and 3 mutavaults. The reason why is that now standstill gains us inevitability. Before, I had to actually do work and make sure I had something on the board for standstill to help me at all. Now I can plop a standstill down if the opponent has a 1/1 or less on the board, since I will eventually draw into the mutavault and win if they don't crack the standstill.
The thing that really did it for me was when I took out a land. I think 12 islands is the absolute least amount you can use in the deck. Since I only had room for 7 other lands I went 4 wastes 3 mutas. The thing about port is that it costs too much and doesn't guaruntee a mana denial. I couldn't tell you the number of times I've attempted to tap a land on their upkeep and they just use it for an instant in response. Usually I have to keep from playing something as well, to save those 2 lands. I know that the ports create a good synergy with wastelands and stifles, but they don't win as many games as mutavault, and they sometimes actually lose games. If you are going to run 20 lands I would do 12 islands, 4 wastelands, 1 port, 3 mutavaults... but the 1 port just seems awkward.
@Whirlpool Rider: He really is good in here. Early game you can pitch him to FoW without thinking too much and late game he turns extra islands (that weren't thinned out from fetches) and vials into playable cards. I have also had much success with opponents cracking standstill with something important and myself not drawing a FoW, but with whirlpool rider, I vial him in and get 9 other shots to hit it.
You say there are many other merfolk, even stranger ones, that would fit better. I've looked through every merfolk in the game a few times, and I've playtested 8 of them in this slot. Sygg, white Sygg, Mirror Entity, Inkfathom Infiltrator, Tidal warrior, Tidal Courier, Manta Riders, and a couple other white-splash merfolk all don't cut it. I'm wondering which merfolk you mean. The Sapprazzan heir (I think his name is) is not worth it, as you give the opponent the choice of whether you draw cards or not, and that is never a good thing to do in my experience. The other merfolk either cost too much for what they do, or are shitty milling cards. Did you actually have any in mind or were you just saying that and hoping I'd come up with a better creature?
@Wrath: You need 12 islands at least. Right now you're running 10 islands 10 colorless lands, but you always want an island to play first turn, whether it be for stifling purposes, cursecatcher, daze, or just saving your wasteland so the opponent feels safer playing their non-basic lands.
Also, I agree with Picelli that you absolutely need 4 cursecatcher. He is the reason that you will never lose to combo, that your lords live extra turns to deal a lot more damage, and he is great after you get a reejery out to tap permanents cheap. Not to mention, he's the best way to help abuse your vial ramping.
I really like the following sideboard:
3 Echoing Truth
2 Propaganda
2-3 Back to Basics
2-3 Divert
2-3 Pithing Needle
~anything else fill with Jitte (I think it's good against certain decks that this one has troubles with), anything that will help you against goyf sligh (but it's pretty bad for you already) such as Mind Harness, Chill, and BEB/hydroblast.
Pithing needle and divert are decent against goyf sligh, make sure to keep their Figure of Destiny and Grim Lavamancer in check with needles if you can. Divert is decent but usually doesn't win you the game against them.
Jittes are slow and I agree they aren't needed in here, but against decks that have a ton of creature hate you need them. All of our folk are good in groups but aside from thrasher, suck by themselves. Jitte can really move the game in your direction.
Hoping that the opponent doesn't wasteland your mutavault, since waste is a common land in a legacy metagame... And 3 mutavaults doesn't assure you to draw it surely on 60 cards...You'd hve to wait a bit, and hope they don't get in something bastard like a mishra's factory.. Well, your wastelands at least could resolve this
To be honest, i thought you could fit in a 1x of tidal warrior or another wake thrasher, even if i know dthat you dislike warrior (which could serve, after all, also as a mana denier, and since you have cut ports, this shouldn't be that bad..) and you want to stick with 2x of thrasher. I realized that even 1x Black sygg isn't that bad, since he has a decent body a a blocker and sometimes can give you extra cards.. but, since you did a tourney with him and said that it's not that useful, i'll respect your choice of playing Riders, even if i consider it not worth of being played as a 2 or even 3-ofs when thrasher is the only merfolk which is good standing alone, and we desperately need a blue piledriver to go off with the race quickly.
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Notice I said against 90% of the decks out there. The thing about your wastelands is they kill opponents wastelands without 2 for 1ing your lands unless you did stupidly play a mutavault with their wasteland out there.
And again, I would say that at most 10% of decks run mishra's factories, so obviously don't be stupid and drop a standstill against them, as they are more equipped to handle it unless you have a vial out or way more creatures...
I really don't want to go half-assed on my mana denial strategy and then run tidal warrior. It's either run ports + tidal warrior or neither in my opinion, as you can screw the opponent over and make up for your excess of colorless mana with the warrior. Wakethrasher, as I've said many times, can be a 2 or 3 of. He is the piledriver of merfolk, but I really don't think goblins and merfolk can be compared anymore, as merfolk are going much more towards control and combo matchups than pure aggro. I really think this is more of a metagame call though, since paying 3 for an instantly dead 1/1 is not worth it. I prefer running 2 whirlpool riders since they give me so much better card selection once I hit them.
Phoenix, I was wondering a merfolk that perhaps you didn't see: Shapesharer (he's a changeling). Well it's not quite a merfolk, but it could solve some of the problems of this deck ( copying a dreadnought or an exalted angel in mid or late games isn't that shit), although being pretty mana-intensive. Some of the posters of this thread called him sometimes ago, personally i found it to be quite slow, but maybe if we pack 2 Relics instead of echoing truths, it could cover what the missing truths cannot any more, i.e. having a sort of protection against obsolete fatties.
What do ya think?
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Doesn't seem like all too bad of a suggestion. How cool would it be to vial one in the face of an attacking Goyf while you have a lord in play. Doesn't seem too out of the ordinary. It can also trade with Dreadnoughts/Stalkers by itself. Idk, I guess I'd need to test.
Is there any way to copy your own Wake Thrasher before untapping without him turning back into crap? If so that would be doubly insane (Or, Doubly + 2(3) to be exact).
I fear it's not possible, but since I'm pretty a noob on card interactions, I'll wait for someone else to answer.
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Interesting. I remember people thinking that he sucked before, and I never gave him more thought. I think he does require more testing, since I can see a use for him with the metagame right now being Tombstalker, Dreadnaught, other fatties (Loxodon Hierarch, Doran, Goyf without relics, Terravore).
I'm not sure how this ability triggers its end effect. I'm used to being able to get around things like cleanup steps with Kiki-Jiki, but it seems like this effect ends at the start of your turn, and therefore you can't cheat something into being a wakethrasher and getting the +1/+1 effect of it, seeing as I don't think you can use it before you untap. On the other hand, he does mean you can effectively run 10 lords, or like you said Picelli, run free dreadnaughts.
I'll give him a shot and tell ya what goes on.
Cool find on Shapesharer. But allow me to play devil's advocate. What makes this guy better than Waterfront Bouncer? Shapesharer can become a Tombstalker/Dreadnought/Goyf, but Shapesharer still doesn't remove any of those creatures to stop them from blocking you. Furthermore, Sharer can be killed in resp to his ability. That's an even worse tempo loss than StPing Wake Thrasher. Waterfront Bouncer solves the blocker problem, and it lives to be able to do it again. Given the format, it "kills" two of Legacy's biggest creatures, Dreadnought and Tombstalker.
The last 7 days I tested this deck.
I prefer play Ug list because in SB trygon predator and krosan greep are very very strong, but in mono U list back to basics is very very strong.
For me misdirection is better than divert because I can play it the first turn (my opponent started).
In late game misdi is better too.
I must peach a card, but isnt a big problem.
If my opponent plays turn one : swamp + dark ritual + seize or hymn misdi is GOODDDD!! With divert I suck!!!
A little question: why in American metagame relic of progenitus is playing maindeck? I prefer to play echoing/rushing river or wipe away.
ps : sry for my little english
After playtesting Shapesharer, I realize why he wasn't used before. He really isn't that great against most decks. The only creatures we need to worry about are Tombstalker and Dreadnaught, and out of those two, we can race tombstalker (since 80% of the decks that run him have islands). Dreadnaught on the other hand is not usually raceable if they get him out early, but we do have a lot of disruption to make sure he doesn't make it out there turn 2. Overall I'd say shapesharer is much worse than the Whirlpool Rider.
I think Merfolk are as good as they are because they don't worry about splashing colors that aren't really needed. Trygon and K-grip are good, but I'm not sold that they're worth the extra possibility of having our manabase disrupted, especially when we already run 7 colorless lands.
You may be right about the misdirection. I don't really like running them and Force of Will because we don't get as much card advantage as we'd like, and divert works in 95% of the cases that Misdirection does.
American Metagame has so many decks that rely on the graveyard that Relic is definitely worth maindecking (and it cantrips when you don't want it). Merfolk have trouble with early goyfs, so this is a great fix. Other than that, Ichorid, Aggro Loam, any deck with Crucible of Worlds, Life from the Loam, Tombstalker, Grim Lavamancer, Jotun Grunt, Terravore, Tarmogoyf, and even combos that use Ill-gotten gains and Cabal ritual. I would say this card isn't sideboarded out against 90% of the decks out there.
This is my testing list:
// Lands
11 [ALA] Island (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4) <-- I don't have mutavault yet!
// Creatures
2 [EVE] Wake Thrasher
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [TSB] Lord of Atlantis
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
2 [SH] Tidal Warrior
4 [SHM] Cursecatcher
2 [MM] Waterfront Bouncer
1 [AP] Whirlpool Rider
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [NE] Daze
3 [SC] Stifle
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
Tidal Warrior is good for denial and for islandwalk
I'd probably drop the two Relics and add the last Stifle and Daze or Landstill.
I would completely ignore this... I'd guess it's a first time reader of the forum.
If you have them you should run rishadan ports instead of the mishra's factories. They're still good, but I think the lack of merfolkness would be more of a detriment, and since you run tidal warriors anyway, you're going to have a much better time of mana-denialing them.
Standstill is one of the best cards in the deck, I would never run less than 4, also you're running 18 lands, which is bad since you don't have cantrips. Use 12 islands or try to get lucky drawing into them.
-1 relic for +1 creature seems fine, but honestly, Relic takes tournaments by storm.
If I drop 2 relics I put 2 echoing, but I play 2 bouncer already.
@edit : Phoenix Ignition can you post a good list for me? With/without vault. Thanks very much!!
List I won the 40 man tournament was using Sygg, River Cutthroat instead of Whirlpool Rider, but this is the list I currently would have used:
12 Islands
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejery
2 Wakethrasher
2 Whirlpool Rider
4 Aether Vial
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Standstill
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
SB:
2 Propaganda (I call it ichoscoop)
3 Chill (not nearly enough to make burn/sligh favorable, but I couldn't in my right mind play with no SB for them)
1 Umezawa's Jitte (see chill, also good against random aggro deck)
2 Pithing Needle (vs random stuff or mishra's factory)
3 Echoing Truth (good against lots of things)
2 Back to Basics (Aggro loam and the rock)
2 Divert or Misdirection(All around good against stuff)
So I'm not sure that Mishra's Factory is going to be better or worse than Rishadan Port... you should playtest that. It might not matter that it isn't a changeling (although that helps your Meathooks matchups more for sure). If you would rather go the mana-denial route I would probably run:
List w/o Mutavault.
12 Islands
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejery
2 Wakethrasher
2 Tidal Warrior
4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Echoing Truth
3 Stifle
Probably something like this. Your main goal is to win before they can really do anything. Echoing truth takes care of whatever they manage to put on the field. Use it at the end of their turn to take care of their threats, then drop standstill. Make sure no one has green mana for an early goyf or it gets rough. Relic would probably need to find a place in your sideboard against decks with Life from the Loam, but I've won games with this list before they had a chance to cast anything other than LftL.
Don't use bouncer in this list. He's so incredibly slow that it just isn't worth it. I know he has good synergy with standstill, but you should make a different deck altogether for that synergy.
Another Merfolk top8 here out of 77 people... with no Wasteland, and 2 Bouncers!
This deck is growing more and more everyday; it got a DTW status for me; maybe we need a good Primer on the opening post now, that's a little outdated.
Yes, this is absolutely true. People are caring so much about the recent successes of Team America , but they can't see how merfolks are doing top8 both in America and Europe sometimes even more than TA. On DeckCheck, there are about 30-31 Merfolks having hit the top8 - also in big tourneys. Is it enough to give it a [DTW] tag ?
I think it would be the time both to recognize the strengths of this deck and give it a decent and updated primer. I'd like to make it for a part, but It would be better if someone could help me ( since i'll be surely criticized for something that i'll write XD).
Phoenix Ignition, would you like to write something about Folks, since you did very good results, if you have the possibility to ? I could help you if you want.
P.S. In the list you gave to Aj without mutavaults , I'd go -1 truth +1 daze to harden the mana denial package, since daze is extremely synergic with ports and cursecatchers. Just an annoying observation
@Aj: (ciao , ti ho incontrato una volta su Mws e tu giocavi Team America, poi mi hai chiesto delle cose su un torneo di Milano. Sei rimasto impressionato dalla potenza dei Pesci, eh? :D)
I think that misdirection, although being a good card, doesn't really fit in merfolks.
Divert/misdirection are designed to be sided in against those deck against which a blue-based fishesque deck sucks ( The Rock in particular, and , as you were mentioning, MonoBlack Discard ) because they run cheap removals which often make us in a situation of "virtual " disadavantage. I Explain myself better: many times,, playing against Rock, i found myself spending 3 mana to cast reejerey and then, it gets StP'ed with them tapping a single mana. This can be considered as a sort of "mana " disadvantage because I "lost" my resources that turn laying something which got removed with less mana than the amount i used for it ( i know it's a bit an intricate concept, but try to understand it ).
The only consistent form of protection we have agaisn the rock casting his removal/disruptive bombs ( thoughtseize,vindicate, smother, Stp, ecc, and soon i think PathtoExile) is Force Of Will, which reuries a loss of 2 cards. Daze and cursecatchers are surely good as counters, but they lose their efficacy as the game goes on, and particularly more if you are playing a decklist less based on mana denying the opponent ( the one with mutavaults, to be clear).
Divert is optimal here, and superior to Misdirection, because it allows to turn this " virtual disadvantage " which we suffer into both virtual and card disadvantage for them:
just Diverting a StP or,even better, a Vindicate on them so that they lose creatures or lands, slowing them consistenly and allowing us to ramp to our gameplan a bit more "safely".
You could say that Misdirection does this in the same way, but Misdirection requires also a card to be pitched, so it would be "2 for 2" ( for example, if you divert a Stp on his confidant, he loses 2 cards, bt you also do).
Divert doesn't have this weakness, since it usually does "1 per 2" ( since it doesn't require anything to be pitched to it), so IMO it's >> than misdirection. A single mana to be spent is worth this advantage, i guess. Just float U always , in these matchups.
Ah, not to mention that you can trick them with divert, since you can cursecatcher/daze a spell in order to make them waste the mana and then divert it onto their permanents/themselves, or you can do also the contrary, diverting it to make them pay and, so,lose mana, and then daze/catcher that spell. I know this is 2x1 for them, but this is to be used only in critical situations. Divert, in fact, should be cast in the early phases, waiting to cast it too much could make it perfectly useless or playable around.
It's a "difficult " card, since you have to be able to bluff to make them cast that spell to divert on themselves, but i assure that it's completely worth that SB slots.
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