[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

[FlavaSava]

Often Top is an additonal "protection" because many players think youre playing thresh or whatever, so they counter them to provide the countertop engine

[FrankTheTank]

OK, I took your advice into consideration. Then, I thought Cunning Wish might be a nice addition. I am not sure, you know, being a scrub and all but I thought it might work. Current decklist looks like this:

Lands: 14
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Scrubland
1x Taiga
1x Swamp
1x Plains
2x Island

Engine: 6
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Brain Freeze
2x Ad Nauseam
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Doomsday

Tutor/sift: 16
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Brainstorm
4x Sensei's Divining Top

Mana: 16
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual

Protection: 10
4x Duress
3x Orim's Chant
3x Cunning Wish



Sideboard:
1x Orim's Chant
1-2x Ad Nauseam
1-2x Slaughter Pact
2x Pact of Negation
9 other cards, I dont know what would be best to include when you dont know what to expect (I dont know my metagame)


Comments would be much appreciated.

[emidln]

That list doesn't need Brain Freeze main (it should be Grapeshot in the sideboard anyway, even without red lands). You do however want maindeck bounce of the split-second variety. You also have to have Meditate to make Doomsday workable. I don't like Cunning Wish due to a high mana cost and its less than desirable effect while comboing. You'll also find that you want more initial mana sources to make Top better and to better play around hate vs control. Your options are more land or Chrome Moxen. Chrome Moxen are worse vs control but help out with your primary storm engine. Land are much better with control but don't really do much extra off Ad Nauseam. I'd recommend 2-3 additional permanent mana sources (with 1-3 lands in the sb if you don't go with additional lands main).

Also, I think the choice is between Ponder and additional protection/lands with the Doomsday builds. Doomsday builds always play IGG because it is an alternate (and very cheap) Doomsday pile as well as one that can play through multiple hate bears from aggro (if they somehow get them down). The solid slots in my hybrid list go like this:

// Maindeck
14 Lands (with 8 fetches, 1 Sea, 2 Basics, and misc config of splash lands)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Rit
4 LED
3 Cabal Rit
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Mystical Tutor
2 Infernal Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Doomsday
1 Meditate
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Duress
1 Wipe Away/Krosan Grip

I have 9 slots remaining that I fill with a mix of 20 cards. I usually take at least 2 more mana sources and 2 more bombs with the remaining cards being fairly fluid.

Land #15
Land #16
Protection #5
Protection #6
Protection #7
Protection #8
Bounce/Removal #2
Ad Nauseam #2
Doomsday #2
Tendrils #2
Ponder #1
Ponder #2
Ponder #3
Ponder #4
Cabal Ritual #4
Chrome Mox #1
Chrome Mox #2
Chrome Mox #3
Infernal Tutor #3
Infernal Tutor #4

My sideboard usually has ways to address Chalices and Trinispheres exclusively (Serenity, H.Recall, Ancient Grudge, Shattering Spree), additional protection beyond what I maindeck (Orim's Chant, Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast, Xantid Swarm, Extirpate), CB hate (KGrip/Wipe Away), a general bounce package of 1 ETruth, 1 Rushing River, 1 Wipe Away, an alternate win condition (Helm + Grapeshot), some number of lands if I'm below 17 (probably the offcolor basic to complement my protection spell (Plains or Mountain) which depends on my choice of Flooded Strand or Bloodstained Mire as Fetches 5-8), and usually has an alternate win condition (in the case that I am playing less than 2 Doomsday maindeck, I have 1-2 Doomsday in the sideboard so I can transform into straight Doomsday vs control). Misc other cards can make it into the deck depending on how I'm feeling like Pyroclasm, Slaughter Pact, Ray of Revelation. The exact sideboard depends on my feel of a metagame and how I configured the mainboard (faster with less protection means I lean more heavily towards an anti-control sideboard or slightly slower with more protection leans me in the way of additional removal spells). I usually bring all the cards mentioned here and build my sideboard on the fly at an event.

I can say for certainty cards that I do not play:

Angel's Grace - I have never needed this card or wanted it. If I can't win with Ad Nauseam I have Doomsday and Ill-Gotten Gains to fall back on, in addition to simple storming out. Against burn I go for Doomsday or Ill-Gotten Gains and I never feel the need to draw my entire deck with Ad Nauseam.

Repeal - This card is all sorts of not good. It's mana intensive against counterbalance because it can still be dazed (or worse, Forced) when compared to Wipe Away (although they do have the same CMC). You have ETruth, Rushing River, and then specific hate cards to deal with Chalices as well as just winning through it (easily done with Chalice @ 0 using Doomsday or Chalice @ 1 using Infernal Tutor -> IGG). You don't want to bring this card in against aggro because it costs more to deal with hate bears like Canonist than simply running Echoing Truth or even Chain of Vapor in its slot.

Chain of Vapor - This card isn't particularly bad, I just want my bounce spells to be able to hit Chalice @ 1. If you are worried about a bounce spell's CMC off Ad Nauseam, this isn't a bad choice. The usual warnings about CB and Countermagic apply.

Swords to Plowshares - This is worse than Slaughter Pact or Chain of Vapor. If you want to STP something chances are you considering comboing instead. If you can't combo and need to, STP will be, at best, bait for a counterspell of some sort. Slaughter Pact costs less and kills all relevant hate bears. Chain of Vapor can be cast off a basic and hits things that aren't creatures (which this build doesn't care much about anyway).

Brain Freeze - This is a worse Grapeshot against everything except maybe Ichorid and Solidarity (and then only if you can Freeze them in response to some sort of card draw otherwise they thank you and then combo out). Grapeshot doubles as removal (relevant in a few different Doomsday piles) and manages to actually kill the opponent. Rarely, you might be able to Grapeshot + Tendrils an opponent postboard as well.

Infernal Contract/Cruel Bargain - With Ad Nauseam I never really want to hit my draw4 (nor do I care most of the time), but as a setup spell the black draw4s eliminate the possibility of using Ad Nauseam. These incidentally also make Doomsday cost more (in terms of life 4 life instead of 2 life to combo).

Pact of Negation - I want my protection to function as protection and disruption. Pact of Negation isn't very good at doing the disruption part. You might say that this deck never wants to play a control role, and I don't really disagree with that, but in tournaments I've often found myself playing this build as a pseudo-combo-control deck (especially the red splash).

[Bahamuth]

Well, like you just said, Top is mandatory if you run the DoomsDay alternative Storm engine.
That, and the fact than after AdN you're usually able to generate a bunch of black Mana, but not always the double-U to Mystical+Ponder//Brainstorm into Tendrils.
A lone Mystical + SDT work perfectly here.

The main liability (beside the fact that SDT need more lands to be effective) of SDT over Ponder is that Top slows the deck's Goldfish for a whole turn where Ponder can just draw you the accelerant you need to just go off and win..

So, SDT requires more patience and setup to be effective, the good thing is Top helps you to setup over several turns (when facing hate or real opponents) and shows you more cards (and thus the card//answer you seek) with the deck's 7-8 Fetches than that 1 shot Ponder of yours.

I see your point, but don't you agree paying 2 mana for an effect worse than Ponder, or paying 3 mana to see 6 cards seems a little much? I also noticed that drawing into a top with a 1-land hand (which this deck gets about 30% of the times) is just terrible, whereas Ponder would've been much better. Is the advantage of running Doomsday really worth playing Top over Ponder?

[emidln]

I see your point, but don't you agree paying 2 mana for an effect worse than Ponder, or paying 3 mana to see 6 cards seems a little much? I also noticed that drawing into a top with a 1-land hand (which this deck gets about 30% of the times) is just terrible, whereas Ponder would've been much better. Is the advantage of running Doomsday really worth playing Top over Ponder?

I fully believe that Top prepares us for the control matchup better than Ponder. I rarely find myself in a position to combo turn 1-2 in a protected manner against Thresh or Dreadstill-like decks and would rather my slots go towards improving my bad matchups than helping out my goldfish speed* (which at a half a turn slower is still faster than everything except Belcher and TES).

*(I believe this so much that I usually play a build with 17 land and 4 Doomsday main with Ad Nauseam + additional fast mana in the sideboard against not-blue).)

Edit: Also, I do agree that top with a 1 land hand is terrible with 14 lands. That's why I normally play 16 lands when I maindeck Ad Nauseam and only 1-2 Chrome Mox.

[Bahamuth]

I fully believe that Top prepares us for the control matchup better than Ponder. I rarely find myself in a position to combo turn 1-2 in a protected manner against Thresh or Dreadstill-like decks and would rather my slots go towards improving my bad matchups than helping out my goldfish speed* (which at a half a turn slower is still faster than everything except Belcher and TES).


*(I believe this so much that I usually play a build with 17 land and 4 Doomsday main with Ad Nauseam + additional fast mana in the sideboard against not-blue).)

Okay, I see. With a 17-land build, the odds of getting a multiple-land hand is much higher (EDIT: It's actually around 25%). Also, I can't help but ask: Doesn't it ever happen you are shut off your combo because you can't find a Top/Brainstorm (or used it)?

Also, that list seems interesting. Do you still play 1 IGG mainboard? Actually, could you post the list?

[emidln]

Okay, I see. With a 17-land build, the odds of getting a multiple-land hand is much higher (EDIT: It's actually around 25%). Also, I can't help but ask: Doesn't it ever happen you are shut off your combo because you can't find a Top/Brainstorm (or used it)?

Also, that list seems interesting. Do you still play 1 IGG mainboard? Actually, could you post the list?

It's my normal DDFT list (so yes, I do play 1 IGG). I just sideboard Ad Nauseam, the remainder of the Lotus Petals, and the remaining Cabal Rits for when I face aggro. The extra hate like Pyroblasts, KGrips, and Chants come out for speed and generic bounce. I haven't had many issues with not being able to find a draw spell (I play Brainstorm, Top, and Ponder in the list) but it does sometimes happen. With the move to red blasts main, I find when that happens I can usually just win with a Tendrils after a counterwar. This does move to my argument that ANT is just a derivative of FT (the same 75 with one configured against aggro and the other configured vs control), but I'll save that and the DDFT discussion for another thread.

[Bahamuth]

It's my normal DDFT list (so yes, I do play 1 IGG). I just sideboard Ad Nauseam, the remainder of the Lotus Petals, and the remaining Cabal Rits for when I face aggro. The extra hate like Pyroblasts, KGrips, and Chants come out for speed and generic bounce. I haven't had many issues with not being able to find a draw spell (I play Brainstorm, Top, and Ponder in the list) but it does sometimes happen. With the move to red blasts main, I find when that happens I can usually just win with a Tendrils after a counterwar. This does move to my argument that ANT is just a derivative of FT (the same 75 with one configured against aggro and the other configured vs control), but I'll save that and the DDFT discussion for another thread.

I agree with your last statement. I like the idea of having a strong game one against control, while still having decent options against Aggro, and post board even more. I have one final question: I see how Top is better in a control matchup, but why is the Doomsday engine desirable over Ad Nauseam?

[rsaunder]

I agree with your last statement. I like the idea of having a strong game one against control, while still having decent options against Aggro, and post board even more. I have one final question: I see how Top is better in a control matchup, but why is the Doomsday engine desirable over Ad Nauseam?

There are a few reasons, not the least of which being life costs. Againt control, you generally lose a decent amount of life to attackers (goyf+goose) and that has the capacity to shutdown AdN hardcore. It's also a more consistant engine. You will never kill yourself or fizzle out if you go off with adequite protection.

[Jaiminho]

Okay, I see. With a 17-land build, the odds of getting a multiple-land hand is much higher (EDIT: It's actually around 25%).

Hand with 2 or 3 lands with 14 lands in library: 47%. Hand with 2 or 3 lands with 17 lands in library: 55%. It's only about 17% higher, but this isn't taking into account the chances of drawing into land while digging. Then, the difference will end up even higher.

I agree with your last statement. I like the idea of having a strong game one against control, while still having decent options against Aggro, and post board even more. I have one final question: I see how Top is better in a control matchup, but why is the Doomsday engine desirable over Ad Nauseam?

The main reason is that Doomsday costs only 2 life. It does require more setup, usually using 1 more specific card when compared to a manaless Nauseam (Ritual, Ritual, Nauseam kind of thing). As far as specific cards go, there's a pile that costs as same specific cards, gets lethal storm on its own and won't ever fizzle without outside assistance, but requires generic cards in hand for replacing with Brainstorm. EDIT: What rsaunder said.

2 Infernal Tutor

Why 2 Infernal Tutors? AN/IGG redundancy?

[emidln]

Why 2 Infernal Tutors? AN/IGG redundancy?

Exactly. If I have at least two Infernal Tutor, then Meddling Mage isn't much of a concern to me (at least against my bombs). I generally go up to three, but I don't consider the third or the fourth to be necessary. I just listed what I believe is the minimal list for a deck I'd play (that had Ad Nauseam main).

[kicks_422]

I too was an inital skeptic of running SDT (along with the Doomsday engine) over Ponder. Ponder led to bigger Turn 2's, since I can set up that turn right away. However, the consistency of SDT allows it to perform much better in practice, and Doomsday is certainly a welcome addition as an engine. Ponder leads to faster goldfishes, but there are less goldfish in the sea nowadays. SDT helps a lot against the sharks.

I've become very frustrated with Serenity. Oftentimes I've had situations where I can Mystical into anti-hate, but can't because what I'm running is Serenity. The opponent then drops a Chalice for 1 which makes it very hard for me. I've swapped them out in favor of Rebuilds.

[TeKo]

Do you really need/use the Doomsday Engine Pre Board?

I play them SB, because I didn't need them often enough to waste MD slots.

[kicks_422]

When do you board them in, though? I think I'd rather run Doomsday MD or not at all, since it's a waste of valuable SB space. If you'll be siding in Doomsday and I assume Meditate as well, then you probably already have the 4 Tops in the MD. Those 2 more cards to fit into the MD is well worth it, IMHO.

[FlavaSava]

I guess boarding in DD and Meditate is good against Aggro, where you haven't got engough life to use AN usefull.
Teko: Do you play SDT main? Maybe you board them in against control and both(DD and Meditate) against Aggro...

Has anybody an idea what to play in the board?
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Pyroblast
2 Volcanic Island
1 Massacre
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Hurklys Recall
3 Serenity
2 XXX (mana short)

[kicks_422]

If I have Doomsday in the SB, I'll be boarding it in against aggro in case I get to a low life total early, and they have some form of grave hate for IGG. I'll be boarding it in against aggro-control too, as an additional engine against all the combo hate they have, also in case I get smashed down by an early Goyf. I'll be boarding it in against dedicated control too, as it offers flexbility around the control wall that they could establish.

To reiterate, I think it's either you play it MD or not at all.

[matelml]

]I fully believe that Top prepares us for the control matchup better than Ponder[/U]. I rarely find myself in a position to combo turn 1-2 in a protected manner against Thresh or Dreadstill-like decks and would rather my slots go towards improving my bad matchups than helping out my goldfish speed* (which at a half a turn slower is still faster than everything except Belcher and TES).

*(I believe this so much that I usually play a build with 17 land and 4 Doomsday main with Ad Nauseam + additional fast mana in the sideboard against not-blue).)

Edit: Also, I do agree that top with a 1 land hand is terrible with 14 lands. That's why I normally play 16 lands when I maindeck Ad Nauseam and only 1-2 Chrome Mox.

I have found no need to improve the control matchup with 1 IGG, 1 AdN, 0 DDay, 4 Ponder, 0 Top, 4 Duress, 4 Chant, 14 land list. So I am curious to why you would need Top. Against non-control decks Ponder is way better. Let's compare:

Cost/effect:
U: Rearange 3/shuffle, draw 1
1: Draw 1 (only if you can shuffle before you draw another card)
2: Rearange 3, draw 1 ("")
3: Rearange 3, after the next shuffle rearange 3, draw.

The first one seems waaay better if you look at it. The first 2 top situations are strictly worse and to have more effect than Ponder you need to invest 3/4/5 mana! Without even getting more cards or a bigger grave for Cabal rit which is very important in my opinion). With those mana you coud have chained more BS's/Ponders/Tutors.
If you want DDay and IGG (as emidln suggests) you get a significantly higher manacost and less initial manasources for AdN, which I find the best way to combo in most cases (best investment/reward, which means I can combo the fastest with the most protection with AdN).

I feel Cabal Ritual is underrated by the people here. It's my best accelerant if I play against counterspells. My plan becomes: find as many protection spells as possible with BS/Ponder/Mystical/Infernal+1 Cabal and 1 AdN. It becomes a 2 card combo, which allows you to find more protection.
This is my list:

1 AdN
1 IGG
1 ToA
4 Chant
4 Duress
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
4 LED
4 Dark Ritual
4 Petal
4 Cabals Ritual
3 Chrome Mox
4 Delta
4 Strand
1 Isle
1 Swamp
2 Sea
2 Tundra

edit: yes there were 3 Moxes missing

[kicks_422]

That list is three cards short. We have very similar builds though, only differing in my inclusion of the Doomsday engine, with Tops over Ponders.

[FlavaSava]

Perhaps the Chrome Mox are missing.
I wonder how you fit in 4 Ponder, 4 Duress and 4 Orims Chant?
Changing 1 Tundra into 1 Scrubland and playing 1 AdN more would be better

EDIT: You dont play bounce
is this right?
1 Rushing River
1 Chain of Vapour
1 Ad Nauseam?

[Jaiminho]

Has anybody an idea what to play in the board?
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Pyroblast
2 Volcanic Island
1 Massacre
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Hurklys Recall
3 Serenity
2 XXX (mana short)

Don't play 2 Volcanic Islands. If you are playing red lands in the board in order to side Pyroblasts in, play 1 Badlands and 1 Volcanic Island. This deck is much more black mana (accounting for Duresses and Rituals) than blue mana intensive. At least that's true when you don't run Ponder, but Top.

You are missing the default bounce package: Rushing River, Echoing Truth and Wipe Away. The first 2 are general answers for when you don't need Split Second to solve your issues -- River is actually wonderful against Staxish artifacts. The obvious Wipe Away is pretty obvious: CB.

Massacre is only actually good against White Weenie decks with lots of hate bears, so if you see lots of that, I can't advice against it.

Empty the Warrens is garbage. If you aren't doing a crapload of tokens on turn 1, it's possibly not going to do much for the entire game. That card was good when people didn't know how to answer it or was simply afraid of an early storm of 6. Things changed and it's now a pretty bad card. If you are looking for an alternate win condition, run Grapeshot or Brain Freeze.

In this very same page, emidln laid out some nice guide about how to build the hybrid. You might want to take a look at it.