[Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Sacred Mesa requires mana while this requires enchantments which equates to mana and cards. Mesa can win when you are losing from a lack of hand, an opposing army, or general board position. This can't conjure up several blockers as easily as Mesa. It's not quite win more, but Mesa can win or save you in more situations then Sigil.

[Barsoom]

Actually, i'm playing with 3 win conditions; Mesa, WoW, and Hoofprints of the Stag.
What do you think about Hoofprints of the Stag versus Sigil of the Empty Throne? Same mana 2+3 vs 5, Sigil is faster, 1 card for a 4/4 vs 4 cards and 3 mana for a 4/4, you need to draw something with both cards; all in all, Sigil seems a better card than at least this.

[GreenOne]

Sacred Mesa requires mana while this requires enchantments which equates to mana and cards. Mesa can win when you are losing from a lack of hand, an opposing army, or general board position. This can't conjure up several blockers as easily as Mesa. It's not quite win more, but Mesa can win or save you in more situations then Sigil.

Mesa requires only mana, but MUCH more mana. Specifically, 2WW for one token a turn+upkeep cost. Sigil saves you in situations where you don't have infi mana, but just some. Playing Wild Growth or Elephant Grass + 4/4 Flying for G seems to good to pass up.
Mesa requires mana, but keeps you from doing anything in your turn if you wanna use it to its full power. You also don't have to worry about cards in hand needed, cause 1 every 2 cards you draw is making a 4/4.

Without an enchantress out I see Mesa being better ONLY if you have zero cards in hand and 3WWW+ mana.

[Jaiminho]

Mesa won't allow you develop your board while producing tokens. If you are trying to save yourself by doing this and don't have enough mana to produce enough tokens so that some will live to see another turn, then you are still losing the game, except it's only taking more time for it to be over. Your opponent is developing its board and you are doing nothing.

With Sigil, you can simply drop it and not worry about anything. Getting enchantments countered will still render you a token, so you'll be both developing your board and containing threats. You are then able to turn the table and become the aggressive player. This deck runs 35 enchantments. More than half of your turns you'll be able to drop a 4/4 and that's considering the worst case of having no enchantress effects on the board. The only things you have to worry about are: 1) Getting 3WW; 2) Drawing enough (few) enchantments.

[honz]

Against most decks, Sigil of the Empty Throne is pretty much enchantress number 9-12. With each enchantment you play, it puts that much more pressure on your opponent. In combination with cards like ground seal (1G: draw a card, put a 4/4 flying token in play, and screw loam.dec) and karmic justice (your EE at 0 just became my armageddon) just make sigil insane. This card will significantly stall most decks, allowing you to get online.

I have been running 1 win-con for months (words of war), and only lost 1 game out of dozens because of it. I will now be testing 1-2 sigil and maybe even give moat another try. Obviously the only real problem is the casting cost, which is steep and prohibitive early on.

@landstill101: Your deck sounds like it is more white than green, which has given me nothing but problems. You always want 2 green sources so you can cast an enchantress (because one of them will always get nuked by: waste, stifle, port, sinkhole, hym...etc), and sprawl requires a forest. Im just curious because I run 20 lands, 5 non-basics, and have had some problems with anti-land.dec (tempo thresh, team america, geddon stax...etc).

[GreenOne]

...karmic justice (your EE at 0 just became my armageddon) just make sigil insane.

Justice doesn't work with creatures.

[Parcher]

Strictly looking at Sigil as a replacement win-con, I don't see how it is any better than Dovescape. It has one less off-colored mana, and produces one 4/4 vs. three 1/1's per enchantment. That makes it slightly superior.

Dovescape, on the other hand, shuts down every relevant spell your opponent could cast for the rest of the game. Survival can get Harmonic, or a Wickerbough. And potentially, Goblins could chain Ringleaders to keep up with your card advantage if you don't have Grass or Confinement. But unless they already have an on-board answer, no deck can beat Dovescape if it hits with Enchantress in play. I've even won with four Enchantress effects against Aggro by chumping with the creature ones, and using Replenish for the win to keep from decking.

A turn shorter clock, and the extra White that should be irrelevant if you are in this winning position, don't seem to push Sigil over the most effective lock piece in the game. Both are "win-more" in most situations, but Dovescape guarantees the win if played properly.

[georgjorge]

Dovescape, on the other hand, shuts down every relevant spell your opponent could cast for the rest of the game.

1. It also ensures you won't cast any relevant spells for the rest of the game either.

2. No relevant spells except Goyf, Tombstalker, Terravore, or most of Faerie Stompy or Dragon Stompy's or Goblins' creatures. I'm not sure you could race those if you haven't a Confinement or Grass down already. Let's see what happens if you DON'T have an Enchantress effect down and are up against a creature-heavy deck: With Dovescape, a Ground Seal and, say, a Presence will get you tokens for 5/5. With Sigil, the same spells will get you tokens for 8/8 AND the effect of those cards. It's even worse if those cards would be Oblivion Rings, Moats, Confinements, or Grasses.


You probably already took these points into consideration, but your post ignores them and makes it look like Dovescape has no drawback at all.

Also, you won't always get three Doves - three is what your most expensive spells (except two or three Replenish and Moat) cost, and the average casting cost is lower, more towards two.

[GreenOne]

Also, dovescape with too many Enchantress Presences out means you're going to generate a limited number of tokens. I lost metches with Dovescape out against Landstill for example, when i played 2 enchantments, the opponent fowed one and in his turn played EE for all his mana. 15 tokens with just 2 cards, I had to deck myself to death.

[landstill101]

Strictly looking at Sigil as a replacement win-con, I don't see how it is any better than Dovescape. It has one less off-colored mana, and produces one 4/4 vs. three 1/1's per enchantment. That makes it slightly superior.

Dovescape, on the other hand, shuts down every relevant spell your opponent could cast for the rest of the game. Survival can get Harmonic, or a Wickerbough. And potentially, Goblins could chain Ringleaders to keep up with your card advantage if you don't have Grass or Confinement. But unless they already have an on-board answer, no deck can beat Dovescape if it hits with Enchantress in play. I've even won with four Enchantress effects against Aggro by chumping with the creature ones, and using Replenish for the win to keep from decking.

A turn shorter clock, and the extra White that should be irrelevant if you are in this winning position, don't seem to push Sigil over the most effective lock piece in the game. Both are "win-more" in most situations, but Dovescape guarantees the win if played properly.

I don't see the reason to run a card to shut down an opponent(which could actually shut down your chances of winning) when the cards you play to get creatures (through dovescape)many of times do a better job. As already talked about, dovescape can actually get you killed because of cards like E.E. and force of will(which is over half of the meta) Why use that card when we have cards like wow, mesa and this new one which will prob be tested like crazy.


For the person who talked about the land problems, I run 22 lands with 10 basics and have not had a problem with wasteland ever. One of the main reasons I don't have a problem with it is because I have main deck seals which stop loam recursion(which is usually the problem) and if they run crucible(which isn't seen very often) you have karmic justice which makes their wastelands useless and I have sacred ground side to help even more.

Against much of the land hate out there, there is really only 1 deck that gives me fits, and that is usually mono black decks that run sinkhole fulminator mage and wasteland, which usually I either hope for a very land full hand or I wait till sideboard to get sacred ground, One of the things I have noticed thou is that he may blow up 3 of my lands, I only need 2-3 lands to more than run the deck which means that every land he destroys is a card out of their hand that might possibly stop you. But other than that deck(which is never seen) Usually wastelands aren't enough to stop me( I usually always get basics with the fetch lands), ports:force them to use 2 of their lands to stop 1 of mine. which in my opinion would hinder my opponent because only 2 decks run port any more, which is goblins, which you just play elephant grass and use the port to pay for the grass which just hurts the opponent. and for 42 lands, well 1 land isn't a big deal and that deck takes a couple of turns before it goes on killing rage which gives your more than enough time to get the enchantress going.

Right now I run 2 decks ITF and enchantress and usually I decide which one I play on how much combo there is(if alot I run itf) and if there is alot of land destruction(then I play enchantress)

[honz]

I completely spaced on karmic justice's ability...

About dovescape: this really is useless without an enchantress in play, because the decks you board it in against (landstill) ussually have a higher curve than you do. That's why Sigil acts like a pseudo-enchantress here, and is another must-counter for landstill. Once it hits play, you can still put pressure on them through enchantments (choke, city, enchantress, grove, aura of silence...etc) and now through creatures. They might be able to wipe the board two or three times, but you have innevitibilty.

@landstill101: i play 3 ground seals main (4th in the board), 1 justice main (2 more in the board), and 1 sacred ground SB. Even with this, i have consistantly had issues with the mana-base, and find it to be the weakest link in the deck. Maybe i just have poor luck, but i would never run that manabase....

[HdH_Cthulhu]

ports:force them to use 2 of their lands to stop 1 of mine. which in my opinion would hinder my opponent because only 2 decks run port any more, which is goblins, which you just play elephant grass and use the port to pay for the grass which just hurts the opponent. and for 42 lands, well 1 land isn't a big deal and that deck takes a couple of turns before it goes on killing rage which gives your more than enough time to get the enchantress going.

They could just tap a land after you paid the upkeep cost. Or am i missing something?

[georgjorge]

True, just wait with the Port until your draw step.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Hey, let's play Mirari's Wake too.

Fer serious?

It costs 5 mana.

IF I have Enchantresses out, I'd rather have something that costs 1 or 2 mana, 3 tops. 5 is right out.

IF I don't, then I'm stuck either playing enchantments that I'd rather save as actual Enchantress fodder, or not making use of the card.

Whereas if I was running Mesa in that slot, I could make them deal with Mesa without burning any other resources. If it takes them 3 or 4 turns to deal with it, I might draw an Enchantress by then and still have enchantments to play.

If you're in a situation where you're on plan B (ie, anything that isn't play enchantresses -> draw lots of cards), it's because you're playing against something with control. That means they probably have answers to creatures, whether that means Engineered Explosives (which now nets them card advantage because of the enchantments you had to waste getting your tokens out), Wrath of God, or just an enormous Dreadnought. Even spot removal is card parity vs any token that wasn't Ground Seal generated.



In either of those situations, Dovescape actually would be better, since neither does anything to advance your main game plan.

[Jaiminho]

Even spot removal is card parity vs any token that wasn't Ground Seal generated.

Seal of Primordium, Oblivion Ring, Runed Halo, Choke, Blood Moon, Enchantress's Presence and Elephant Grass are all enchantments that have value outside of the engine. Getting rid of the tokens generated by these will not count as card parity. Also, would someone keep spot removal in the deck for post-SB games only to deal with Sigil tokens?

[Parcher]

In either of those situations, Dovescape actually would be better, since neither does anything to advance your main game plan.

This is the only thing I've read that makes a bit of sense. Both Sigil and Dovescape are the very definition of "win-more" in this deck since they are only effective (or in this case, even playable) if you are already in a winning position. Spending that much mana on a card that does nothing on it's own is possible in Solitaire; but surely sub-optimal. Dovescape just guarantees that in the rare case that everything is already going well that you maintain this position.

Your opponent being able to drop 15 tokens is irrelevant if you have Confinement or Grass in play, which should be assured if you have an Enchantress and Dovescape. And even if not, doing so should empty their hand. You, however, will be "casting" between 6 and 10 tokens every following turn.

Also against a Control deck, all they have to do is counter Justice and your win-con is usually not a concern with the amount of sweepers and (post-sideboard) spot removal they will have. At worst they can lose half their lands to remove your entire engine, win-con included. With Dovescape in play, obviously none of this will happen. I've never lost a game against any deck when it has been cast.

But mainly, Matt is right, and 5+ mana is too much for either of these effects in this deck.

[monopoman]

I still think the card is better then Sacred Mesa in 80% of circumstances.

Switching out that card for just ONE copy of this thing seems good. I will be testing this card heavily and since like was stated.

Sacred Mesa+Upkeep is 3WW anyways its not like your losing out. This deck also can have tons of excess white mana due to our best friend serra's sanctum.

I think this card has potential and it may not be better then Mesa but I am having a hard time finding many situations where that is the case.

I also like how Needle can't shut down this card. I am not sure what you can do if they get needle for wow and mesa unless you have a way to recur artifact destruction. If they have 2 needles set at those two cards each it might be impossible to pull off until you deck yourself.

[Parcher]

The mana for Mesa is spread over two turns, which can be highly relevant. Sanctum is never a guarantee to remain for any amount of time.

WoW can't be Needled.

[GreenOne]

IF I have Enchantresses out, I'd rather have something that costs 1 or 2 mana, 3 tops. 5 is right out.

If you wanna play sacred mesa just to draw cards with it you're right, Mesa costs less.
However, if you wanna to affect the board state and wanna spend as little mana as you can, this thing is better than Mesa.

IF I don't, then I'm stuck either playing enchantments that I'd rather save as actual Enchantress fodder, or not making use of the card.

If you don't have an enchantress out and you don't wanna die, you still have to play some enchantments. It's not like the opponent is doing nothing if you don't have an enchantress out. As I stated, the only point I see are cases where you don't have an enchantress out, have little enchantments in hand (0 or 1) and have 8+ mana on board. Also, even in this case if you actually draw something relevant that you wanna play you're making less tokens that turn with mesa, but doing your job with Sigil.

Engineered Explosives (which now nets them card advantage because of the enchantments you had to waste getting your tokens out)

You play, say, Runed Halo and make a token. If the opponent plays EE for 0, how the hell did he net card advantage? He used his EE and you still have your enchantment on board. Also, it's not like you have to play your entire hand to make a clock. wtih Mesa you need to pay something like 5WWWWW (4 tokens + upkeep cost) to make the same power you can make playing a single enchantment. Playing a single enchantment or maybe 2 already pushes the opponent in a 3-5 turn clock.

an enormous Dreadnought.

With mesa you gotta spend 24 mana to kill a dreadnough, or 26 spread on 2 turns. With Sigil you need 3 enchantments. If you wanna play a solution outside this wincon (O.Ring, Runed Halo, Confinament, etc) Sigil actually makes a token for free. I really don't see a point here. Can you explain? Also, against a goyf you can chumpblock with mesa for 2WW a turn or kill it for just 6WWWWWW. With sigil you can chumpblock it if you're playing an enchantment a turn or you're killing it, playing 2 enchantments. And you'll still have a token left.

Both Sigil and Dovescape are the very definition of "win-more" in this deck since they are only effective (or in this case, even playable) if you are already in a winning position.
[...]
Also against a Control deck, all they have to do is counter Justice and your win-con is usually not a concern with the amount of sweepers and (post-sideboard) spot removal they will have. At worst they can lose half their lands to remove your entire engine, win-con included. With Dovescape in play, obviously none of this will happen. I've never lost a game against any deck when it has been cast.

I'm with you that dovescape rocks against control decks, and I'm actually playing it in the SB. The deck needs a couple wincon though, and WoW works only with Enchantress effects out. Dovescape too. I wanna play a wincondition that is good on its own, and it's better with enchantresses out. I see Sigil fills this role better unless, as stated, you have 4WWWW on board and zero/one enchantments in hand.

[Barsoom]

WoW can't be Needled.

Are you sure?