space limitations what would you remove to add them? you still need the land or your not making it faster.
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Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar
what about mogg fanatics? I really only get some use out of them.
Can someone post me a monored list for me to start playing this deck? thanks.
cabrala7x,
can you please read the second post on the 98th page of his thread first?
thanks.
Because that would involve the following downsides (for chrome):
+if you begin with chrome mox in hand, you begin with effectivly six cards, while being a turn ahead.
+chrome mox is a dead draw past turn 3ish, whereas in traditional goblins, fanatic is the least relevant spell, and it still swings, and does 1+ damage to your opponent, as well as making driver bigger.
+if you still expect to hit land drops until turn five, you're going to be running a manabase something like 21 lands, 4 chrome mox. This means your ringleaders lose some of their power
+you are hurt much, MUCH more by deed, as they will likely kill 1-2 mana sources as well as your vials/dudes.
+Your vials (and mana denial) become less relevant, as you're effectivly two turns faster with mana than your vial is accumulating counters - you will want to CAST your threats as soon as possible to benefit from the tempo boost. I would -wince- almost suggest dropping vial if you're playing mox, as it would put right the goblin/card ratio, and they are not very complimentary.
While the upsides would be:
+Casting a turn one (on the draw) daze-proof lackey/vial (not especially relevant for lackey, as if your opponent is on the play, they will likely be landing a blocker/removing lackey turn two.
+Casting (though less effective) ringleader earlier, however, he is less likely to hit goblins, (lower number of non mana cards in the deck) and you really need to hit 2+ goblins off him to make up for the card disadvantage of the imprint.
+(???) possible turn one chalice vs solidarity/permanent waves???
+Slightly faster clock against combo, but you still probably need to drop a chalice or prowl a squad to win this one.
Mox diamond would mean running possibly 24-26 lands and 4 mox, making ringleader even worse, but you would not be sacrificing a spell to play the mox, and would probably continue to hit land drops despite pitching a land, as the count would have to be higher. Diamond would also allow you to play magus of the moon SB without worry of cutting off your G/B sources. Crucible/waste lock in goblins?!?! Goblin stacks?!?! (doesnt work too well, I've tried) Diamond seems to take the deck in the wrong direction, away from aggro/disruption and more towards disruption/prision/random lackey wins
TLDR: The best part of playing moxen in legacy is dropping a turn one chalice for one, something that goblins generally doesn't want to do. The card disadvantage and diluting of the goblin/card ration IMO doesn't make up for the tempo boost.
Fanatic is simply put, one of the best cards ever printed, one of the best 1-drops ever printed (even though your deck has 12 incredible 1-drops), it can do dozens of things. First of all it can execute players, it can hit shit like dark confidant or random turn 1 blockers allowing your lackey to get through, it can untap your sharpshooter and make for some crazy shenanigans, clearing a board thanks to the extra 2 damage, it can chump guys that have umezawa's jitte on them and then sac before combatdamage to prevent the jitte from accumulating counters and much, much more.
Running less than 4 would be downgrading your deck.
Hello friend.
I just had the most crazy idea for Goblins, itīs either terrible or the holy grail for this deck. I am thinking about running RW Goblins with 2 or 3 Oblivion Ring and 1 or 2 Jotun Grunt in the maindeck. Grunt an O Ring both solve the Goyf problem and Jotun Grunt fits the Vial curve very good as well. Oblivion Ring will solve all troublesome permanents such as Moat, Humility, Propaganda, Back to Basics, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Tombstalker, Goyf, Seismic Assault etc. In the sideboard we could play some Orimīs Chants to stop ANT from going apeshit, Lightning Helix and STP could be other options for the deck.
Goblin sledder is simply put, one of the best cards ever printed, one of the best 1-drops ever printed (even though your deck has 12 incredible 1-drops), it can do dozens of things. First of all it can push damage through to players buy saccing your blocked guys to make your unblocked guys bigger, it save lackey from shit like lava dart and goblin fanatic, it can pump and thus save guys in combat after putting damage on the stack, it can untap your sharpshooter and make for some crazy shenanigans, it can make any goblins chump guys that have umezawa's jitte on them and then sac before combat damage to prevent the jitte from accumulating counters and much, much more.
Running less than 4 would be downgrading your deck.
Mogg raider is simply put, one of the best cards ever printed, one of the best 1-drops ever printed (even though your deck has 12 incredible 1-drops), it can do dozens of things. First of all it can push damage through to players buy saccing your blocked guys to make your unblocked guys bigger, it save lackey from shit like lava dart and goblin fanatic, it can pump and thus save guys in combat after putting damage on the stack, it can untap your sharpshooter and make for some crazy shenanigans, it can make any goblins chump guys that have umezawa's jitte on them and then sac before combat damage to prevent the jitte from accumulating counters and much, much more. It was even misprinted in the beatdown box set at a mana cost of RR, but it actually only costs R, which could make for sick plays when your opponent uses discard, and then runs out a chalice of the void with 2 counters on it assuming it will keep you from playing your mogg raider... not today buddy, we go by the oracle text!
Running less than 4 would be downgrading your deck.
Skirk Prospector is simply put, one of the best cards ever printed, one of the best 1-drops ever printed (even though your deck has 12 incredible 1-drops), it can do dozens of things. First of all it can push damage through to players buy attacking and not being blocked, it can sac itself and other goblins to net R for each goblin sacced which allows you to pay other spells with colorless or red mana in their casting costs, it combos with fecundity, mogg war marshal, and patriarch's bidding, it can untap your sharpshooter and make for some crazy shenanigans, it can make any goblins chump guys that have umezawa's jitte on them and then sac before combat damage to prevent the jitte from accumulating counters and much, much more.
Running less than 4 would be downgrading your deck.
/silliness
Fanatic has obviously lost power over the years, as juicy targets like mother of runes, savannah lions, lavamancers, ect have been replaced with goyfs, tombstalkers, and dreadnaughts. The threats in today's meta are just plain BIGGER. Truth be told, the best way to ensure lackey connects is warren wierding, for the same reason gempalm is now being run in the Rb(g) builds as a tutorable 1-of, as he can really only kill utility guys before the late game. As much as I love the little guy, with piledriver, PILEDRIVER being discussed as a possible 3-of, running 4 of fanatic is by no means a 'downgrade' - it's adapting to the changing metagame.
Beware danger of cool things. I tried RW goblins years, YEARS ago, back when affinity was a DTW/DTB. It was really, really horrible. It looked like most lists, but with 4 swords in the main in place of the stingscourger/incinerator/sharpshooter slots. In the side I packed serenity and pyrokenisis. It's not worth it to have cards that are not goblins in the deck other than aether vial and whatever you bring in from the board to win difficult MUs. (chalice, grave-hate, ect)
Relic, as discussed earlier, solves most all of these problems and cantrips, so while it still hurts ringleader, it also cycles for 2 when not needed, as opposed to swords/O ring which can be dead in certain MUs and also hurt ringleader. Grunt is a firm NO, and if you just want to beat the piss out of goyf, run goblin goon. Serenity could still be a decent SB card, but green is a better MD splash as tin street is the nuts right now, and grip will actually resolve against decks packing moat. I am weary of anyone who suggests stifle/chant effects against ANT, as if you don't run any counters, they will probably just use discard to snatch the spell out of your hand. Chalice works here as it can be set for 0 turn one, and ANT must search/mystical for bounce before they can try to go off. (barring something like 3x rit -> igg -> infernal -> win ZOMG!) Black offers MD wierding, which kills all the troublesome creatures you spoke of, and can be tutored/ringleadered/recurred, (tribal sorcery-goblin) while also offering PROACTIVE combo hate SB in discard/squad. IMO reactive hate only helps against ANT if you have counters to back it up.
PS: I wouldn't advise Crib Swap either, i shat my pants when it was spoiled crying "ZOMG, tutorable swords!" Well twenty minutes of playtesting put that one to rest. Too slow, and giving your opponent a 1/1 blocker was hardly going to help lackey/little guys get there.
I run Fanatics not because they are so amazing, but more as a support card. The Jitte trick, Bridge removal and Bob or Lackey killing is not the main reason I run it, that is just added bonus. The reason I run it is because I want to have something to do in the early game. It fits the Vial curve and it's good with Piledriver. Behind Vial and Lackey this is the best 1 drop available for Goblins, Relic is a possible replacement and Skirk Prospector could be good if you want to run 4 Earwig Squad in meta full of combo.
I don't know O Ring looks pretty good though, it could potentialy solve a ton of problems. I might be pushing it with Jotun Grunt.
Last edited by Mantis; 01-09-2009 at 03:09 PM. Reason: Don't want to double post.
I have been out of the loop of magic for about a year now and I am getting back into it. Here is my R/g Vial Goblins deck as it was at the begining of 2008:
Land (23):
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
6 Mountain
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
Artifacts (4):
4 AEther Vial
Creatures (33):
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Tin Street Hooligan
Sideboard (15):
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Krosan Grip
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Tormod's Crypt
I have tinkered with many builds over the years, including a mono-R version. I had cards such as Goblin King (for plague) and Goblin Sharpshooter in the SB, along with 2 Goblin Tinkerer and 2 Jitte main (Even a Kiki at one point). I also had REB instead of grip, and Pyrostatic Pillar instead of Crypt in the SB. I even had more of a Sligh feel to the deck at one point with Lightning Bolt and Barbarian Ring included in the MD/SB among some others, but there was not as much synergey. I also found that R/g was a little more versitle in the metagame at the time.
I was hoping for some advice on either the MD or SB based on the current metagame (which based on what I have seen seems to be very threshold heavy). I am wanting to still stick to R/g since I do not want to throw more money into switching colors, so please keep your suggestions based on only R/g Goblins (and I know I should probably have another Tiaga, but for now I don't want to go out and buy 1, and 2 seems to work just fine). Should I still have TS Hooligan MD? 4 Gempalm, 4 Piledriver, and 4 Fanatic still good? Any cards from new sets I should add? What about my SB...Crypt still worth some slots? Chalice and Pyro still the best choices based on what usually gives Goblins trouble? Or is there something better out there from new sets (or even old sets that is now better based on the metagame?
Thanks for any help in advance.
I'd play your exact list, with just -1 Chalice -3 Tormod +4 Relic of Progenitus. It really helps against Tarmogoyf and it's better against tombstalker/mongoose. It also cantrips.
Or if you want a new twist, try Food Chain Goblins
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
Blabla, thanks for reading my post I guess, and thanks for completely trivializing it. Althought it was pretty childish
I could go and write witty oneliners as well if you'd like that, even though I'm sure most people wouldn't, so I'll just try and spout opinions and maybe, perhaps even try and educate people on things like the awesomeness of mogg fanatic by opening their eyes to many things they could do with them without maybe even knowing?
I don't know, it sounds like a good way to make for a quality thread about vial goblins, don't you agree?
Edit: @OnPhyre: Relic of Progenitus is pretty much the new must-have in any goblin sideboard :)
Hello friend.
This. I agree. Relic is the only thing that makes R/G still pretty close to on par with R/B. It narrowed the gap tremendously by giving the deck a neat out to Tarmogoyf. And the cantripping thing is sweet as hell.
Your list is still very solid and hasn't really changed much based on the metagame (I'd include a third Taiga, but that gets into personal nitpicking and has absolutely nothing to do with the metagame changing.)
Also, if it were me, and I wasn't afraid of a lot of Storm combo (And if you are, don't play Goblins), I'd axe Chalice altogether in that list for Tin-Street Hooligan #3/#4 and a random singleton, either like a Sharpshooter, or possibly a Gaea's Blessing if you expect Painter combo. Having four Tin-Streets is very very important if you don't have Weirding, as not only will Tinny save you against Faerie/Dragon Stompy, Affinity, Stax, etc, he's also crucial for giving you the means to pick off Phyrexian Dreadnoughts, who are much more a part of the metagame now than a year ago.
I am not a goblin player. All of my experience playing the deck is 2+ years ago, testing with my friend's deck. I'm trying to advise a friend on what to bring to Chicago. He doesn't own legacy cards outside of goblins, so he's definitely going to be bring some form of the deck.
My question is:
Given that I'm expecting their to be a strong showing of TES / ANT at the tournament, should he play a RB with squads main and chalices in the side, or is the margin that you gain by doing so not worth the impact to your other matchups? I'm thinking he'll either play that, or play a monored build with maindeck relics. But, again, I'm no expert.
Given the amount of Stifle/Waste decks roaming the meta nowadays along with the relative lack of Engineered Plagues, I think Mono-Red Goblins could suddenly be a strong choice again. It's pretty damn strong against any form of land disruption deck (Team America, Dreadstill, Thrash, et cetera) and still maintains a solid game against all the control in the meta (modern Landstill-builds really seem to have similar vulnerabilities to Waste/Port Goblins as the 2005-builds).
Giving up Weirdings and Tin Street sucks, but in exchange, you'll get pretty consistently good matches against the primary threats in the metagame and greatly reduced "random manascrew loss" margin. Oh, and less mulligans. I threw together something resembling a Goblins-list, heavily metagamed to beat the tier 1 decks (outside ANT of course, where your plan still is to hope they keep shit and get manascrewed by Wastes/Ports or are knocked too low to go off).
// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
15 [4E] Mountain (3)
2 [MOR] Mutavault
// Creatures
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
3 [PLC] Stingscourger
3 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PLC] Stingscourger
SB: 2 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 4 [A] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
I feel Stingscourger is fairly awesome, buying you time to start dropping your big guys against Tarmogoyfs (bounce one, block the second, that's a turn or two extra, plenty to drop Matrons, Ringleaders and SGCs; also offensively useful with Lackey, but that's fairly obvious). The little guy has gotten a crapton better with the printing of Tombstalker and the errata of Dreadnought, both of which are fairly non-trivial to replay. Of course, the downside is that the CiPT is Stifleable, but can't have everything I suppose. Besides, your Wastes and Ports should be able to restrict their mana the turn after. Tinkerer is around to break Dreads, Vials, Jittes, Needles and everything else ever, 'cause mono-red can't play Tin Street (and Tinkerer is vialable, I guess. Yay?). Fanatic got omitted since outside the mirror and Ichorid, it just looks pretty bad against the meta, at least until someone rips out Survival Elves or something.
Mutavaults probably shouldn't be there, but I wanted to toss enough lands in to withstand a Wasteland and a Sinkhole or two (while the Vials/Lackeys got Forced/Snuff Outted/Dazed/whatever'd) and Dust Bowl, the only rational complement to the LD suite, is just too slow without acceleration while extra Mountains felt redundant. The experience has been surprisingly positive thus far with the increase in the Goblin count for Incin and just the ability to get an extra attacker to go with the Pile that snuck through, and the easy-to-make landdrops for SGCs helping out little here and there (and the random dude to finish with after Your Generic Sweeper #4).
The sideboard was just ripped off the top of my head, so it's pretty bad, but between chalice, mana denial and REBs to hit BS, Ponder and crap (so you can manascrew them for real), you've got a semblance of a chance vs. ANT, and Relics should be fairly obvious. No Plague-hate there, since again, just not expecting to see any. And if one does, I guess there's always the "Waste, Port, Port, why aren't you casting spells?"-mode.
I guess the main question I'm trying to bring up is whether the metagame could warrant reintroduction of mono-red.
I played against that list weeks ago, guess you posted it after all. Very strong list, both disruptive and strong on aggro. I personally found it one of the stronger/consistent Goblins lists I played against but I immediatly realized that that is very dependand on the deck you play.
Still, removal for dreadnoughts/tombstalkers and targetted removal for goyfs together with a strong manabase is a good gameplan.
Major weakness would be enchantment hate, and the biggest thing there would be landstill with humilities/moat, but that's what the mana disruption is for.
Do you feel like Mutavaults are beneficial over the extra incinerator/sgc/sting?
This is a very interesting question, as it begs the logistic of "What if Goblins is the only deck you can play?" and eliminates the idea of "Just don't play Goblins."
Personally, I'd go to one extreme or the other. I'd either accept I was going to lose to TES, or overload to beat it and make games 2 and 3 ridiculously in your favor. I don't think Squad main and Chalice sideboard get you anywhere close to even for the match with modern Storm Combo. Therefore I'd either add a couple more weapons (Pick from Duress/Null Rod/Thoughtseize/Therapy/Whatever Else), or I'd not run Squad or Chalice without a solid reason to run them other than Storm Combo (You might run Chalice, for example, if you anticipated facing nothing but Threshold/Storm Combo/Sligh all day, but Storm alone isn't enough reason to run it unless you're overloading against it.)
My gut feeling is that Chalice will be good at the event, and you'll see a ton of decks that are straight forward, streamlined aggression, consistent and heavy on the 1CC slot. So while I don't usually recommend Chalice, I might if you were playing Goblins in this situation.
I agree mostly with Taco.
I think CotV is a good SB card overall, beeing good in a number of MUs.
My advice, would be, to play atleast the Rb version, with discard SB, and posibally (I think I would do this), run 3 Earwig Squads MD, along with a number betwen 5-7 Warchief-Frogtosser, to increase the chance of Prowling Earwig turn 2. Don't know if it is the best option. You can also, instead, dedicate 10-12 SB cards again'st combo, and pratically give up G1.
In my experience agains't combo, the games are almost the same: he wins G1, there's a chance I win G2 on the play, and he wins G3...=/
But nevertheless, good luck with the championship!
I found the matchup percentage against combo to be about 65 - 35. They win 2 matches, you win 1. That said, I play 3 Relic and 1 Earwig Squad maindeck. Postboard I have 2 Therapy, 4 Relic, 1 Squad and 4 Chalice + 4 Port and Waste. My gameplan against ANT (FT Tendrills) is to set up Squad ASAP. Against TES, I play down Lackey or Vial and then start disrupting their manabase. Hopefully I can put them on low enough life to stop Ad Naseum and then use Relic to cut them off from Ill Gotten Gains.
The big question for me is: mono red or RBG. After seeing Eldariels list I'm really excited about mono red once again. I am giving RBG the benefit of the doubt for know, but I fully realize this can be subjective. The games that are won due to KroGrip and Earwig Squad are a lot more memorable than the games I lost due to Stifles and Wastes on my lands. This has got me thinking for the past few days and I just can't figure it out. I have never been as undecided about anything in Magic as right now. Seriously, I barely slept last night and probably asked my GF what I should do in my sleep lol. I would love to know the opions of you guys and especially the Goblin veterans like Tacosnape, Ectoplasm, kicks_422, nickrit2000, scatmanx, Media, GreenOne etc. (hope I'm not forgetting anyone here).
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