[Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)

[JMG021283]

That's called a win more, which is such a buzz word, but it applies here.

Any enchantment (and a hundred other things) could fit THAT role. Mobility, Brainfreeze, Changeling. You want your win con to do stuff in situations other than "I'm dominating and my opponent can't do anything, I just need 20 damage now." It seems like you don't understand that.

A win con will be better if it can win in situations where you would have lost.

By the end rounds in a tournament, people will have figured out your rough deck composition. Especially since Enchantress games often go fairly late in the round, you can expect that a lot of people have scouted your deck, starting around when you're 3-0. Assuming that they haven't scouted you and that nobody will is pretty dangerous considering how you literally have no answer to that strategy.

By the way, you don't NEED three counterspells to win. With Words of War as your kill con, they can do stuff like play a Pernicious Deed and make you answer that (countering the Karmic Justice or eating it, doesn't really matter).

Or Pithing Needle and keeping your disenchant effects off the board.

Or Meddling Mage on Words of War requires you to jump through a ridiculous number of hoops (drawing to 8 cards, pitching your Words, then Replenish the next turn).

Or just Thoughtseize when Solitary Confinement is down.

Not to mention that Words of War itself requires a pretty specific board situation, involving usually three enchantress effects, a Sacred Mesa, and a lot of Enchantments in hand.


I've found with only one win con, recovering after a Deed or Disk or even EE is incredibly difficult, especially into the teeth of countermagic, and playing the killcon lockout game is by far the best strategy if they know your deck composition (even if you have two win cons, it's the best strategy), and if they even suspect that you only have the one win con, it's devastating.

To be honest, I'm not sure you're playing the same enchantress we all are.... I for one have never had a problem with deed or disk. To be honest, I love to see them. Also, you seem to have every spell you play countered.... dunno what's up with that, but I for one would give up on hypotheticals with your point of view.

If your playing enchantress and doing well in any major tourney, people know what your kill mechs are. There's really not a whole bunch of options. Good players will know the kill mechs with 90% of other decks as well. Knowing what you need to counter and what you have to counter can be a big key in every match you play no matter the deck. But guess what we have a lot they need to counter or have to counter. Not just 1-3 kill mechs. You have city of solitude, rune halo, karmic justice, solitary confinement, moat and many more depending on what you play. Btw, if those get counter you also have replenish. Needle and meddling what you want, i'm still getting stuff i need too through.

"A win con will be better if it can win in situations where you would have lost." Last time I check'd a army, even though expensive army of 1/1 flyers still blocks goyf's, tombstalkers, sea drakes and other random things to swing over for win..... but I guess that comes over the win more? Hell WoW takes care of those things.... and fills that role better.... umm.... I think not. Oh they use x-plosives on there turn to swing through.....sigil isn't gonna help there either.

Mesa, is a excellent card if you use it right. It's not a win more or win less card. It's a useful tool to the deck, if you choose to see it or not. As stated before if you dont like it, dont use it. I'll happily use it to take me farther in rounds and games.

Hate? I said the card is awful, not that I had some personal problem with it.

Sacred Mesa is a relic from older, slower formats in which it was actually okay to sink all of your available mana into making tiny dorks, turn after turn. In modern Legacy, spending in order to attack with a Spectral Procession just doesn't fucking cut it. Like Forbiddian said, the card only functions reasonably once you have already won the game.

Sigil, on the other hand, is a one-time investment, and it creates tokens that are four times as large as Mesa's Pegasi. It is clearly in an entirely different league than Sacred Mesa, but that says so little about the card's value relative to the rest of the format that we still don't know if it will make the cut or not.

Dont be upset about a card(mesa), that you don't clearly understand it's uses in the format.. Sigil is a time investment that requires you to play cards over a turn or several turns to make use out of it. Mesa just requires mana, seems pretty simple to use and very avialible.... Archaic maybe but it works well. Can't play enchantments on other peoples turn, so if you're guys die with sigil you have to start over. To be honest, I'll take mesa over sigil any day. But as another option for a kill mech, I love the card.

[Soto]

I'd like to mention that Sacred Mesa allows you to make multiple creatures fast, that can act as blocker but also as attackers. Instead of getting your one 4/4 blocked, you can get 3 damage in. This might be important very rarely but still something to consider.

[GreenOne]

I'd like to mention that Sacred Mesa allows you to make multiple creatures fast, that can act as blocker but also as attackers. Instead of getting your one 4/4 blocked, you can get 3 damage in. This might be important very rarely but still something to consider.

In this situation you have a blocker and the possibility to make 4 tokens a turn (remember, 8 mana, not just little). With your strategy your damage progression is 0+2+5+8+11, killing your opponent on the 5th turn.

Case 1:
Turn1 - Pay upkeep, make other 3 tokens
Turn2 - Upkeep, attack for 2, make 3 tokens
Turn3 - Upkeep, attack for 5, make 3 tokens
Turn4 - Upkeep, attack for 8, make 3 tokens
Turn5 - Upkeep, attack for 11, make 3 tokens

With Sigil and 3 enchantments in hand (assuming you draw an average number of enchantments):

Case 2:
Turn1 - Make 2 tokens
Turn2 - Make 1 token
Turn3 - Make 1 token
Turn4 - Swing for 12
Turn5 - Swing for 8

Case 2 is obviously better, because you get to play enchantments (improve your board position) and gets blockers that are killing eventual attackers, insted of chumpblocks. Also case 2 makes wonders with an enchantress in play and/or with less than 4WWWW mana.

Case 1 is better only if
- you have that amount of mana
- AND no enchantresses in play
- AND you don't need to improve your board position
- AND the blocker has more than 4 thoughtness
- AND you draw less than average enchantments and have less than 4 enchantments in hand or you have less than 2 enchantments in hand and you don't draw above average enchantments.

So this is not a point.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Again, I'll have to test it, the casting cost looks prohibitive, but statements like



are just completely without merit.

How so?

Sigil isn't a stand alone threat. And Mesa is. Which one do you think is untrue?

[Jaiminho]

How so?

Sigil isn't a stand alone threat. And Mesa is. Which one do you think is untrue?

When 35 out of 60 cards of your deck support a card, it won't ever be standing alone.

[frolll]

Listen to Spat on this one guys.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Reading the comments, I don't think the people who are bashing Sacred Mesa have ever actually played with or against Sacred Mesa. Call it the Bitterblossom lesson; it's easy to dismiss 1/1 flying tokens because individually they're not even worth a card slot. But a metric fuckton of them fuck your shit up by blocking multiple cards with one card (functional card advantage) and then flying over to fucking kill you.

They're like drops of water. The only movie Robin Williams was actually good in. "A little rain never hurt anyone." "No, but a lot of it will fucking kill you."

I may have added that expletive.

Still.

Fucking pegasi.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

When 35 out of 60 cards of your deck support a card, it won't ever be standing alone.

First of all, it's 32 or so.

Second of all, when you have to burn through your enchantress fodder to activate your plan B, that's a problem.

If they can answer Sigil, you were forced to burn all your other resources with it. So if you topdeck a Replenish or Enchantress, you're still in trouble.

If they can answer Mesa, you didn't have to expend any other resources with it.

[Jaiminho]

Listen to Spat on this one guys.

Now I will. Just because you are saying so.

First of all, it's 32 or so.

Yeah, I forgot to count Mox. Still more than half of the deck.

Second of all, when you have to burn through your enchantress fodder to activate your plan B, that's a problem.

If they can answer Sigil, you were forced to burn all your other resources with it. So if you topdeck a Replenish or Enchantress, you're still in trouble.

You mean answer Sigil and its creatures. Only Deed can do that alone. Your opponent would need at least 2 cards to answer it after you made tokens with it. Sure, you give him a 2 turns window (counting your own) to have something to destroy it, if you don't have mana to create tokens right away.

If they can answer Mesa, you didn't have to expend any other resources with it.

Except a bunch of land taps. You say getting Sigil countered a worse tempo loss than getting Mesa countered, and this is true, but you simply don't worry about the tempo loss of them answering an online Mesa comparing to them answering an online Sigil. You spent 1W each turn Mesa was on the board while you spent nothing while Sigil was there and tried to at least develop your board. Also, you don't need to go all in with enchantments with Sigil. It's like saying you must spend every drop of mana you can with Mesa when you can actually play something. The difference is that Mesa takes more mana to produce smaller tokens.

I can't see why you advocate that doing nothing and waiting to find an enchantress effect is better than actually trying to play the game while creating some big 4/4s. Your opponent will not wait until you do something to start playing.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I never said anything about tempo loss.

Saying that anything is tempo loss when you're playing Enchantress without an enchantress is like saying that reading Atlas Shrugged is a waste of time when you're cast away on a desert island.

Tempo loss means nothing when you're in top deck mode.

Your odds of winning with Sigil in such a situation don't appear anywhere near good enough to justify its inclusion.

Your 4/4's in sufficient numbers may stop Goyf's, but Goyfs also stop them. And you're not dealing with an unlimited number of tokens. You have to burn your most precious resources (cards in hand) to get them.

And in such a stand-off, a single Engineered Explosives would be devestating.

[GreenOne]

And in such a stand-off, a single Engineered Explosives would be devestating.

An Oblivion Ring, a Moat, a Runed Halo or even a Solitay Confinament Would be devastating for them too, allowing me to attack for 12ish a turn.

You're always taking as an example a situation that favors Sacred Mesa, but such a situation doesn't occour enough to justify it.

Mesa is better when:
- you have at least 8 mana
- AND no enchantresses in play
- AND you don't need to improve your board position
- AND the blocker your opponent has has more than 4 thoughtness
- AND you draw less than average enchantments and have less than 4 enchantments in hand or you have less than 2 enchantments in hand and you don't draw above average enchantments.
or when:

Mesa is useless when:
- You don't have enough mana (or just white mana)
- You have an enchantress out, so you want to draw some cards. In this case it's even worse, cause it keeps you off of 1W a turn that would have helped you to play another enchantment
- You want to improve your board position. If you improve your board position you create less tokens.

So to sum it, Mesa seems worse if:
- Your opponent has a Jitte online (Faerie stompy, Dragon Stompy)
- Your opponent needled it (every trinket-deck)
- Your opponent can attack into 1/1s with multiple creatures (Goyf sligh, Goblins)
- Your opponent is attacking with a Dreadnough (Dreadstill)
- Your opponent is playing a mana denial deck (Team America, Eva Green, Aggro-loam, Armageddon Stax)
- Your opponent is playing propaganda effects (Armageddon Stax, MUC)
- Your opponent is playing CB and has 3cc in the deck (Dreadstill, ITF)
That's roughly half of the decks to beat and a good number of the established decks.


Do you agree with this analysis?
If not, which points are missing and which ones have to be modified/cut?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

So to sum it, Mesa seems worse if:
- Your opponent has a Jitte online (Faerie stompy, Dragon Stompy)

Neither card is relevant against either deck, because neither deck can impede plan A.

- Your opponent needled it (every trinket-deck)

They have equal or greater access to EE.

- Your opponent can attack into 1/1s with multiple creatures (Goyf sligh, Goblins)

Neither card is relevant against either deck, because neither deck can impede plan A.

- Your opponent is attacking with a Dreadnough (Dreadstill)

Neither card is likely to help you in such a situation.

To stop a Dreadnought you need to get 3 tokens to stick in blocking vs. 6 Stifles, Standstills, Engineered Explosives and Trinket Mages. Plus potentially Echoing Truth.

- Your opponent is playing a mana denial deck (Team America, Eva Green, Aggro-loam, Armageddon Stax)

What makes you think that you're going to get to 5 mana (double white) against them and not be dead all ready?

- Your opponent is playing propaganda effects (Armageddon Stax, MUC)

The first is irrelevant for reasons stated above.

MUC also runs Shackles and Powder Keg.

- Your opponent is playing CB and has 3cc in the deck (Dreadstill, ITF)
That's roughly half of the decks to beat and a good number of the established decks.

Whereas Sigil is worse against decks that have a way to deal with a couple of large(ish) creatures.

Are they any viable decks in Legacy that don't have a way to deal with a 4/4 flyer?


Here's a challenge; in what situation is it better to have a Sigil than it is to have Replenish?

[Mijorre]

Ohh, I know this one.
When the opponent has had a leyline of the void down.

[GreenOne]

Neither card is relevant against either deck, because neither deck can impede plan A.

Faerie stompy has Fow to mess with plan A.
Goblins has Warren Weirding.

They have equal or greater access to EE.

Yeah, they can EE for 3 to get Mesa (and your presences/Confinaments/Rings/whatever) or for 0 to get your tokens.
They, however, can't EE for 5 to take Sigil.

What makes you think that you're going to get to 5 mana (double white) against them and not be dead all ready?

If I'm not getting to 5 mana (double white) then Mesa is useless too. However, if I hit 5 mana sigil actually does something, where Mesa doesn't.

MUC also runs Shackles and Powder Keg.

And they're siding them out.

Whereas Sigil is worse against decks that have a way to deal with a couple of large(ish) creatures.

Only pre-SB.

Here's a challenge; in what situation is it better to have a Sigil than it is to have Replenish?

I'm already running 3 Replenishes MD. I believe a 4th would be a little redundant, and I do prefer a deck with 2 wincon. So the challenge is always the same: what is better? Mesa or Sigil?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Faerie stompy has Fow to mess with plan A.
Goblins has Warren Weirding.

Which should almost never be sufficient to stop you between Enchantresses, Replenish, and Grove.

Yeah, they can EE for 3 to get Mesa (and your presences/Confinaments/Rings/whatever) or for 0 to get your tokens.
They, however, can't EE for 5 to take Sigil.

Or they could just EE for 0 and take out all your tokens.

If I'm not getting to 5 mana (double white) then Mesa is useless too. However, if I hit 5 mana sigil actually does something, where Mesa doesn't.

If you're drawing neither mana nor your actual threats, your luck is terrible.

And they're siding them out.

Only pre-SB.

But they're leaving in Propaganda?

I'm already running 3 Replenishes MD. I believe a 4th would be a little redundant, and I do prefer a deck with 2 wincon. So the challenge is always the same: what is better? Mesa or Sigil?

Why?

Why do you prefer a deck with 2 wincons?

Do you run into a lot of people playing Extract?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Do you agree with this analysis?
If not, which points are missing and which ones have to be modified/cut?

Sigil isnt win more

But your analysis is just win more! Ok you pointed out that sigil is theoretical better than sacred mesa in about 80% of time.

So only testing will show!

[hi-val]

I've got a serious mechanical question to ask, to divert us from the Sigil discussion : )

I'm running into problems against decks with FOW that can sit on their FOWs and end up countering all of my win conditions. If I've got 2 plus 2 Replenishes, between countertop and FOW, they can reasonably counter all of them. I'm running Chokes over City of Solitudes, but I feel like it's not worth it to run one City and have to tutor for it anyway. Has anyone else run into the problem where they've got the game locked up with Moat or Confinement or Halo and can't actually get past opposing FOWs? The time when it came up, I had fewer cards in my library than my opponent and would lose to decking. Should I be aggressively trying to get my wincons on the table? Baiting counters? Just hoping my opponents don't realize that they can sit on FOW? Should I hold my Replenishes for longer? Is it worth it to run 3 wincons or something like Words of Waste on the board for these matches?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Um. If their four counters include Counter-Top, then they also need to counter your Disenchant effects.

What turn are you going off? Without disruption it should be 5-6.

[hi-val]

Um. If their four counters include Counter-Top, then they also need to counter your Disenchant effects.

What turn are you going off? Without disruption it should be 5-6.

Yep, I am hitting around there. I'm finding that I can get the ball rolling on the engine, but a single FOW can set me back a little bit if they counter my wincon, especially if I've already used up a Replenish to get back something like Choke or Sterling Grove or both. My postboard plan is certainly to bring in Replenish #3 or 4, but any tips on the first game?

If you're still having trouble understanding what I'm trying to say (and I'm probably not doing a great job!) then I can post some abbreviated game synopses later to show the example a little better.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Well that'd probably help.

Although my advice would be to run 3 Replenishes MD.