[OLD] UGw Threshold

[kabal]

I'm not sure what incentive there is to remain 3-colors at this point. To be honest, I'm not sure what incentive there was to ever play 3-color Thresh in Legacy. With 8+ Onslaught fetches and a fair number of A/B/U/R duals, you can just play 4c with minimal color screw.

Funny that you mentioned that. I played 4C Thresh (Ugwr) today at a 28 person tournament. I lost in the top 8 to Brassman's Ugbr Counterbalance Control.

Round 1: ANT (2 - 0)
Round 2: 43 Lands (Drew do to time up)
Round 3: Gwb Rock (2 - 1)
Round 4: Red Death (2 - 0)
Round 5: Ugbr Counterbalance Control (0 - 2)

// Lands
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
1 Mystic Enforcer
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator

// Enchantments
4 Counterbalance

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Rushing River
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder

// Artifacts
3 Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt


REB helped, but Pyroclam was never boarded in. I feel 4 colors is definitely the way to go. Reason I opted for the 4th color is due to how much tribal aggro infest my meta.

[Omega]

how about going suicide mode with 5c ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh?

i dont think thoughtseize are needed though in a controlish version of ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh

what are your thoughts?

17-18 lands
1-2 island (are those even needed?)
8 fetchland
2 tropical
1-2 tundra
1 volcanic island
1-2 underground sea
3-4 city of brass

creature : 14 (thats alot)
4 confidant
4 goose
4 goyf
2 trygon predator

counter 12
4 cb
4 fow
4 daze

draw 11
4 bs
4 ponder
3 sdt

removal 6
4 stp
2+ vindicate

any thoughts?

Vindicate is clearly better than oblivion ring.
confidant are probably superior to predict

maybe cutting the 2 trygon to drop to 12 creature and up to 4 vindicate..

Robert

[johanessen]

why u need red? side?

[kabal]

why u need red? side?

I feel 4 colors is definitely the way to go. Reason I opted for the 4th color is due to how much tribal aggro infest my meta.

[MSC]

A much more Inconsistent Manabase just for Sideboard Cards? Not playing Back 2 Basics makes some Matchups a lot worse, too...

If you have a more Aggro in your Meta why not just play Red-Grow?

[kabal]

A much more Inconsistent Manabase just for Sideboard Cards? Not playing Back 2 Basics makes some Matchups a lot worse, too...

Really?? replaced 1 Island and a Plains with 2 volcanics. I wouldn't say that is making it "much more" inconsistent.

If you have a more Aggro in your Meta why not just play Red-Grow?

Because StP is way better right now than lightning bolt. When you say Red-Grow, I'm not sure if you are referring to Tempo Thrash or Red CB Threshold. Counterbalance was definitely the MVP for me all night and should be most games you play. I played (and do play) against many threats which are outside of range of burn.

My feeling is that Ugwx Threshold is the best version. You get Stp, CB and some good ways to deal with tribal aggro. I prefer the red splash just because it hits for 2 and they typically can't recover. Not to mention you get to board in REB which gives you a nice edge in the control MU.

[aTn]

About 4c builds. I have been tinkering with UGWr-Threshold these days. One of my testing conclusions is that Lightning Bolt is not necessary in the deck.

Essentially, like many have done before, I've decided to splash red for Pyroclasm and REB-Pyroblast - making the deck UGW-Threshold with a red splash for these SB cards.

Here is my current iteration.

Some like to play 19 lands in this deck (see the recent Top8 list http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...d.php?t=12603), I'm not sold on the idea... I'd like to hear your suggestions on everything, including the manabase.

I've left out the sideboard, since it needs work. Needless to say REB/Pyroblast and Pyroclasm would be included in it.

About the basic plains - it's there mainly to prevent mana denial decks (TA, Canadian Threshold, etc.) from denying Swords to Plowshares.

Creatures (11)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Trygon Predator
1 Mystic Enforcer

Control (12)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 CB

Draw (13)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 SDT

Removal (6)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives

Other (2)
2 Pithing Needle

Mana (18)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

[MSC]

Really?? replaced 1 Island and a Plains with 2 volcanics. I wouldn't say that is making it "much more" inconsistent.

The Problem with the 4th Color is, that it makes you more easy to Disrupt. There are 2 Points to this:
1) Less Basic Lands mean, Wasteland, B2B and Blood Moon is more effective against you. You have so few Basics, that you cannot play all your spells from them.
2) You get your 4th Color with your 3th Land, which you first have to get. You may have to use Cantrips, that should be finding Business. It also means, its easier to cut you off from one Color.

At a Side-Effect, it makes less hands keepable. A Hand with Double Volcanic Preboard is most time a No-Go...

Maybe "much more inconsistent" is to hard, but I've played around with 4C-Manabase and had a lot of Problems with it.

[Bardo]

You'll have to play harder and can't rely on your basics as a crutch, but you get a lot more power. Here's my mana for U/g/w/b

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Island

With this sideboard:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Engineered Plague
4 Tormod's Crypt [Meta-slot]
3 Krosan Grip

Again, you can shift some of the increased vulnerability to B2B, PoP, Wasteland, by cracking your fetches at the right time, getting the right land, antipicating non-basic hate, etc.

[Cenarius]

Team Nijmegen built this 4c Threshold list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Jotun Grunt

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3/4 Daze
4 Swords to plowshares

4 Ponder
3/4 Thoughtseize

2 Vindicate

4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining top

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

What did that UGBr list play? What had it as replacement of Swords to Plowshares?

[kabal]

What did that UGBr list play? What had it as replacement of Swords to Plowshares?

It wasn't threshold, hence CB Control title. I don't have the exact list, but it was something similar to this:

2 Sower of Temptation
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trinket Mage

3 Brainstorm (he told me so)
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Ponder
4 Counterbalance
1 Krosan Grip

3 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Vedalken Shackles

2 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
2 Undergroup Sea
2 Volcanic Island

SB --
X duress
X pyroclasm
X REB
X Krosan Grip

[diffy]

You'll have to play harder and can't rely on your basics as a crutch, but you get a lot more power. Here's my mana for U/g/w/b

(see below)

With this sideboard:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Engineered Plague
4 Tormod's Crypt [Meta-slot]
3 Krosan Grip

Again, you can shift some of the increased vulnerability to B2B, PoP, Wasteland, by cracking your fetches at the right time, getting the right land, antipicating non-basic hate, etc.

Thing is, apart from Engineered Plague and/or Pyroclasm/Red Blasts there is nothing you'd want from splash colours - and the holes these cards fill can be stuffed otherwise, at least to a certain extent: more Krosan Grips, Engineered Explosives, Oblivion Rings, Trygon Predators against Counterbalance, plus Engineered Explosives and Rhox War Monks against swarm aggro. For sure these cards are less potent against Tribal Decks, especially Pyrocalsm/Firespout would make quite an addition for those matchups, however I do believe that the loss in consistency resulting from the more shaky manabase does not make up for this surge in power in some matchups.

Compare your manabase to mine:

4 Flooded Strand.............4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta...............4 Windswept Heath
3 Undergound Sea............
3 Tropical Island..............2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra........................2 Tundra
1 Island.........................3 Island + 1 Forest + 1 Plains

Granted, every land in your deck produces blue mana, however, your list is also quite colour hungry as you want access to all four colours from turn 1 onwards making fetchland-low draws or playing against disruption much harder. Not saying that it's impossible, however, it does, in my opinion, outweigh the gains you get from stretching your manabase.
Also, having to play 1-2 more lands than a build with basics is something I do not fancy either as already with 16-17 lands I get flooded quite often.

I've written something on this issue before, so I'll just copy it over here:

I personally prefer the white splashed, Counterbalance-starring, build (something like this) because I feel that it is the most consistent build. Although it is not the most broken variant you can play, it is the best at doing what it supposed to do: control the game, drop some fat and win.
It's not one of those 'greedy' builds like for example 5c Thresh because it doesn't need to go greedy as Pithing Needle and Predict are just as good or even better replacements for Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant, at least in the German metagame: the former because it helps against topdecks/drawing or cantriping into random shit that owns you (like Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, Survival of the Fittest etc.) and the later because it doesn't have a huge 'target me, please' sign right on its face meaning that it will actually produce some card advantage (and not only trade 1 for 1 with your opponent's removal which he'll have in excess anyway due to your overall low creature count). Also, the build minimizing on the situational/conditional cards (like Back to Basics, the alternative Blood Moon that doesn't force you into bad colours) and running more 'good' cards (like Swords to Plowshares over the black alternatives [/Captain Obvious]) makes it better against randomness i.e. against Legacy.
Also, did I mention the manabase being absolutely hawt? Like as it 'letting you totally ignore most of the common Threshold hate' (Blood Moon, Wastelands, Back to Basics etc.) and therewith creating virtual card advantage against loads of decks which translates into more easy wins?

Sure 5c Thresh is one of the most powerful builds out there, problem is that it's also one of the more inconsistent ones (manabase issues, colour issues, life issues etc.) which leads to the question if you're willing to trade away consistency, which after all grows in importance with the length of the event, for a little gain in power.
If you're looking for power over consistency, I'd strongly advise you having a look at NQS (list here) which probably is the most powerful variant out there because you combine so many game-plans and plain and simple good cards in one pile.
The problem: you loose against more random stuff which other variants (like for example the Ugw one) can simply ignore.
The Ugw list, on the other hand, has a tougher game against the average opponent: you wins are rather based on knowledge and skill than on mere power, but you have more tools to win based on these two factors than with any other list - the list lets you capitalize most on your abilities as (Legacy) Player. I'm much more comfortable with this than with anything else.

[aTn]

Random thoughts:

I was doubting the relevance of Trygon Predator in the MD, but I've tested it and I have to say he's great (even if his ability is conditional to him connecting). He's won me games against Landstill (stopping the CA non-sense of Standstill once he's on the board, getting rid of Humility, making Deed and EE slower because they need to be cast and activated before Predator connects), Threshold (getting rid of CB and Top), getting rid of Relic of P., getting rid of the random CotV, etc.. Anyhow, I guess this was obvious to all of you, but I needed to test it to be convinced.

[Jaiminho]

getting rid of Humility

That, sir, is a lie or a cheat.

[conboy31]

Random thoughts:

I was doubting the relevance of Trygon Predator in the MD, but I've tested it and I have to say he's great (even if his ability is conditional to him connecting). He's won me games against Landstill (stopping the CA non-sense of Standstill once he's on the board, getting rid of Humility, making Deed and EE slower because they need to be cast and activated before Predator connects), Threshold (getting rid of CB and Top), getting rid of Relic of P., getting rid of the random CotV, etc.. Anyhow, I guess this was obvious to all of you, but I needed to test it to be convinced.

As per the previous poster, I found myself nodding until the humility comment. Maybe moat? As that opens up your ground game again. As for predator, I have been a fan of it over the last 2 or so years. I was relatively unfamiliar with it until I visited Japan and noticed how many t2 players were using it and baptizing all sorts of targets. If landed it is also problem pre-board for dreadstill so you can also add dreadnought to that list.

[godryk]

With Relic of Progenitus seeing more play (besides other obvious targets, mainly CB), Trygon is getting more a more useful to me. Ok, it can't handle Humility, which however has not a big presence in many metas. I actually play it as a 2-of with Krosan support form the board and I'm quite liking it.

[Captain Hammer]

My meta is aggro, lots of creature decks.

So I really wanted to modify my thresh deck to have a much higher threat density (my threats usually outmatch their threats). And yes, I want to stick with UGw.

So this is what I where I wound up....

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Mystic Enforcer
2 Rafiq of the Many

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

As for why I opted to play Rafiq. Trygon Predator just isn't very good in an aggro dominated meta. Where as Rafiq is fantastic with this high threat density. The turn you cast it, you can swing with any of your threats for a massive amount of damage. Hell, Mystic Enforcer by itself swings for 14 points of damage under Rafiq.

Let me know what you think and help me improve it.

[from Cairo]

Knight seems like an underwhelming threat, given that you have to be tapping it to get the effect, I guess its good to hold back as a potential blocker then use the land ability during opponent's end step. I don't know, I guess I just don't like that you have to pick whether you use it as a utility creature or a beater.

Personally I'd rather use the slots you allocated to Knight to add more utility, like Oblivion Ring, or Engineered Explosives, since they can deal with creatures against agro or eliminate non-creature threats against other decks.

[Captain Hammer]

Knight is fantastic. It comes into play as a 4/4, which isn't bad for 3cc. That it pumps itself +2/+2 everytime it uses it's ability is just the icing on the cake.

Having the utility to use it as either an attacker or deter an attack and use it as utility, or block and use it as uilitity is a pro not a con.

Like I said, I face lots of aggro.

They attack. You declare Knight as a blocker and in response, tap the Knight to sacrifice a tapped land for a fetchland/wasteland, and use that land's ability, and boom, Knight gets +2/+2 and blocks and kills their attacker.

Drop a Rafiq next turn and swing with a 14/7 Knight that same turn.

Knight also combos with Sensei's Diving Top to always get you the card you need each turn. It even combos with Top + CB to make absolutely certainly that CB counters their spell. And it's ability to grab Wasteland after Wasteland makes Daze that much better as well.

[Jaiminho]

Knight is fantastic. It comes into play as a 4/4, which isn't bad for 3cc. That it pumps itself +2/+2 everytime it uses it's ability is just the icing on the cake.

4/4 is terrible for an unaccelerated 3cc creature. Anyway, Knight won't attack if it's pumping itself. Giving your opponent (not aggro, obviously) time sucks. Just saying...