Actually, no it shouldn't. Extended of the old days does not equal Legacy of now. They didn't have to deal with decks packing turn one goldfish (ANT, TES, mirror matches), turn two lockdowns (Stax variants, Enchantress), or turn three aggro wins (RGB Goblins, Dreadstill). They also didn't have to deal with about 3/4 of the "unfair" cards we have access to in our pool (FoW, StP, Elephant Grass to name a few).
And out of curiosity, by what term are you using "Old" as? Time Spiral block is where dredge was born, and that was two years ago. We haven't had a large scale rotation since then, so in reality, this is still "new/current" Extended, kinda.
I'm going to set the record straight on this minor pet peeve though:
Tolarian Winds is GARBAGE. No matter how much my buddy fought me for it, no matter how many times I would cast it, it simply sucked more often than it did anything. And I'm really not a fan of cards that suck.
-It's great that it discards before you draw. Really. But LEDless versions DO NOT want to rape their hands, which is why LED was the first thing cut. The card ONLY has potential when you have dredge creatures in your hands already, and that's what the discard outlet of creatures is for. You discard what you want, when you want. Anything else = inconsistent.
-It's awesome that it's 1U and instant speed. However, you will never really care, as any time you can cast this for 1U, you could have just as easily activated a Coliseum and followed it with Careful Study. This should happen turn two, by the way.
If we were to factor in card loss/gain by that point, on the play we would have 7 - 1 + 1 -1 -1, for opening hand minus land, plus draw, minus land, minus spell. That means we'd have 5 cards drawn we get to dredge with, and since the likelihood of all those cards being dredgers is very low, we've discarded other spells, lands, and outlets to dredge X cards. Neither safe, nor consistent.
To put it simply, it's an overcosted Breakthrough that's even less broken when you factor in that you will probably not have 3+ dredgers in your opening hand, when any/all draw spells matter. And if that's the case, you've just dumped other draw spells or lands to try to get some dredgers in your hand, which you now have to rely on the discard outlets to get rid of anyways.
Catching the problem yet?
Now, alongside that, Breakthrough is also very, very lackluster without LED and DA. In one of my posts either in the original Ichorid thread, or here, if you take one piece of the combo out of the equation, you severely weaken the other two. By "combo" here, I mean DA-Breakthrough-LED.
-Without LED, DA is terrible, and uncastable under nearly all circumstances.
-Without DA, Breakthrough doesn't serve much more than situational dredge engine #2, right behind Careful Study, being far more practical.
-Without both, Breakthrough serves only as a situational spell that when combined with the correct dredge targets, no discard outlet in place, and mana open, can be fuel for explosiveness. However, this is not the main plan (therefor not a 4 of). It's there to fuel a random turn one explosion, or get you out of DDD.
The U/B list is roughly akin to what I was working up, but I would be very unlikely to pilot something that looked anything like what you currently have from Extended. That build has the luxury of Extended being a much slower environment, and never needed to combo off turns two or three consistently. We do, however.
The dredge count there is 11. Unfortunately, Darkblast is far more of a metagame choice than Thug, and Thug has the ability to be cast & chump, and put other creatures back into your library at the same time. Darkblast is very situational, and you can't just cast it if it's cluttering your hand, and needs to be disposed of. If I were to stick with 11 dredge, I wouldn't put Thug down to 1 just to fit in Darkblast. But we actually have room, as Winds and Akroma no longer need to be in the deck. Maybe up the count of dredge cards to 13? Sounds like a plan.
Breakthrough as a 3 of again gives us another slot to play with, in case we realize that having 4 without the luxury of activating LED for Coliseum or DA seems to be......well, bad. It's okay though, because this card can be the golden ticket. This lets us decide if we wanted to put in 3 of something (keeping 11 dredgers instead of 13), and figure out if that 3 of is worth it. We have access to Unmask, for unfavorable combo and dedicated control matchups. Or we could knock down one Narcomoeba, seeing as it's completely situational (the 4th one, that is, not Narcomoeba in general), and have 4 open slots. Maybe... Street Wraith, for added free dredge, dig, and Ichorid recursion. Hey, if we put 3 Unmask in the SB, that's even 4 more black spells we can toss for it when we need to side in.
Wait, I think we just came back to my build. Whoops.
Now, this post is not really just me being a total ass because I was on a House rampage this week and have probably drawn in more of his attitude than I'd admit to, but it's more of an understanding that we need faster options that Extended simply didn't look into, because they didn't need to.
The Extended clock was typically turn four victory. It did have potential for faster, but it usually waited until turns two and three to set up the kill, not turns one and two like we do. The U/B build I've been testing has been as consistent as the "standard" and 5c LEDless builds, with a little less narrow minded sideboarding.
My real question now is, if we know our deck doesn't need to last to the long game, where U/B Extended list looks good, what benefit does cutting back to U/B give us, if it cuts our sideboard options for multiple outs?
By the way, I was serious about this post not being just me being an ass. I simply went through the process that I myself have gone through, and rather than it being multiple months, it was a single post. U/B needs to prove it can handle just as much as 5c lists can, so if we were to look at reinventing the wheel, we should start with the sideboard, not the maindeck.
Originally Posted by YuanTi
Well, Torment, Odyssey and Judgment rotated out of Extended in october, so current ext Dredge decks don't look like Ichorid at all.And out of curiosity, by what term are you using "Old" as? Time Spiral block is where dredge was born, and that was two years ago. We haven't had a large scale rotation since then, so in reality, this is still "new/current" Extended, kinda.
I don't have much to add after Deathwing's lengthy post, but I have to say I totally agree about Tolarian Winds. No matter the situation it always seems underwhelming.
Ah, I had forgotten this year was the last of the 3 blocks/3 years rotation. Even then, 2 months is hardly what I'd consider "old", lol. I'm from pre-Legacy time frame, when "old" Extended still had duals and FoW.
I tested it out and strongly disliked it. It was to situational. Now when it resolves, you almost always win. But waiting till turn 3-4 against someone you plays Daze just to cast it and hope then don't have a proper counter for it is not a plan. Tolarian Winds is good but it starts putting the deck into that all-in mode and we have Breakthrough which fills that same role.
IMOP, in the Legacy environment, Tireless Tribe is even more relevant. It is a discard outlet and it saves you a TON of life. It blocks Goyf all day and comes down turn 1 to stop a Lackey which is VERY improtant.
It is nice to see someone who also agrees with me on Darkblast but I view the Thug/Darkblast as more a meta call. My meta is infested with Goblins and Affinity so I play it main. Neither is more right than the other but I do personally prefer Darkblast since it nullifies Mogg Fanatic and Jailer and keeps Dark Confidant off the board permanently (I don't want them drawing more Extirpates).
I would not run that list in Legacy. If you want to play non-LED Dredge in this format look to the opening post at my list or at Deathwing's Street Wraith Dredge list and go from there. Both of these decks are thoroughly tested and refined. You can start switching cards out later on but take either of these lists and start playing against savage Aggro, Thresh, Landstill, Stompy variants, and Loam variants so you understand the format how to handle the hate cards and which hate cards are run by which decks. One thing that is exactly the same as extended, is that it is all about counter sideboarding.
There have been numerous discussions about why would you run fattys in a format with StP but in the end, this is the result, run them if you want too, BUT why reanimate a fatty when you can just flat out win OR reanimate a giant Grave Troll?
As previously stated by Deathwing, this deck is all about pacing, timing, and selective dredging. It doesn't matter when you win, just that you do. This deck is able to slow the game down enough to win OR can go the savage turn 2 kill route. Playing just UB limits greatly your SB options and MD options as well. In a format with Dark Ritual the opponent can easily re-cast Leyline which is why Wispmare is SO good. You can EOT cast Chain on Leyline and then attempt to combo off but if the deck isn't being kind to you and your dredges are garbage then you may have just lost. It does depend though, you could dredge into Therapy and get it out of their hand but still, if they are playing Leyline, it is accompanied by hand destruction and land destruction so you can't really sit around and sculpt the perfect hand, you just have to go for the win.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Nobody have tested eternal witness??
Eternal Witness is used more when the sideboard options allow for playing it, and if the metagame calls for it. Since my meta isn't infested with aggro decks that I have to worry about, I don't need Firestorm, etc. Witness in that case really is far less useful, as I don't have a reason to bring anything back from my grave for the most part. In my playing, she really only acted like Sage #2.
Why in the hell would you want to play ichorid w/out LED?!
Someone please explain this to me.
EDIT: Actually read the primer... NVM
EDIT2:
Who cares if it is more consistant, without the speed, the deck cannot race agro or combo, and gives oposing strategies time to disrupt/delay...
That's my take on it anyways.
These are understable arguments, but non - LED dredge is not a catastrophe!
What i mean is that LED version needs some more experience in playing combo decks specially in the selection of initial hands. IT IS CONSISTENT but no so much predictable. I think that some people feel more safe playing "no combo" ichorid version because is easier and still efective! It remembers me the terrifying old extended version. However, it clearly prefer the LED version due too it explosiveness and efectiveness and it speed which improves our match against combo and control. In addition it allows the "switch" sideboarding to no combo dredge if needed.
EDIT: i think that 4 ichorids and 4 therapies are needed
Last edited by GoldenCid; 12-27-2008 at 10:15 PM.
My take on dredge.
Creatures
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage
2 Tireless Tribe
1 Woodfall Primus
Spells
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
3 Unmask
Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
- 12 lands: I like casting my creatures and having a chance to go weenie beatdown.
- 3 Unmask: Kinda hard sometimes to decide what to pitch, but against control matches it's golden. Game 2/3 on the play removes the hate and comboes awesomely with Cabal Therapy.
- 3 Dread Return: Do I really need 3? I feel I do, when you can't dredge a great amount of cards sometimes you just NEED a Dread Return to keep going with Cephalid Sage or to stall the game with Woodfall Primus.
- Woodfall Primus: Because I don't like to lose to Propaganda, Ghostly Prison, Solitary Confinement, Glacial Chasm... I could go on.
- 3 Ichorid: I don't feel they're that good to need 4, sure they help me go off easier, but I feel I don't have enough black creatures to support 4.
In my opinion this deck has some advantages over the LED version:
- Greater consistency with 6 Putrid Imp, which help fightning hate game 2 and 3 since you don't have to go all-LED-in.
- Good amount of disruption against control.
- Woodfall Primus gives a way out of sticky situations.
I haven't figured out the sideboard yet, since it seems dependant on the metagame. But what you think about my MD?
Hi alderon. Looks like a pretty good list. I'm in the process of building an Ichorid deck myself right now, trying to figure out what sort of build to play. Hope you don't mind a few questions.
My primary question is: You seem to be running fewer lands (I suppose I should say mana sources thanks to Lotus Petal) than others who have posted here. How often do you find that you don't have enough mana?
Also: You also seem to favor Breakthrough over Careful Study, though previous posters have discussed the "lackluster" feeling they have towards Breakthrough. Care to discuss?
Thanks!
spiritmage of teamtheVault
I'm not alderon but i play ichorid since a time. If you are thinking on building an ichorid take this pack as an advice (beyond the version you choose to build):
4 Ichorid
4 Cabal therapy
4 Putrid imp
4 Stinkweed imp
4 Golgari grave troll
3 Golgari thug
1 FKZ
2-3 DRead return
Careful study is good but breakthroug is better for comboing...
I don't like the lands that much, they all are so bad I'd rather run something else. I just don't want to take 3 damage to cast a turn 1 Careful Study.
About the Breakthrough, with more Putrid Imps you can make a better use of turn 2 Breakthrough by going turn 1 PImp, dredge on draw step, discard dredger and Breakthrough. The only time it's really bad it's when you draw only 1 land and no way to discard a dredger... then you have to go all-in into slow dredge.
The Unmask are only good if you're playing against a lot of counters... even though it eventually allows a turn 1 combo with Breakthrough.
Mmmmff.....for card philosophy read the LED in ichorid combo thread. There are large discussions about the use of cards depending on your pairing.
Thanks guys, hopefully I'll be able to put together an Ichorid list soon and contribute more to the thread with my own play experiences.
I as well thought that a lot of the lands the multi-color versions looked terrible, but it seemed they were the only options. I'm excited to see that there's a version that can run off the 12 lands alone. I may add 1 Undiscovered Paradise... we'll see.
spiritmage of teamtheVault
Im kind of upset with myself that I didnt play this deck this past weekend at Manchester. Looking through the Top8 noone was REALLY prepared for ichorid. I played TES, which there were several others playing storm combo as well, but if I had made my way through the first few rounds I would have been golden playing ichorid....
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
It really is the pinnacle of metagame combo. They have to devote a ton of slots to it, or lose to it. With that said, if they do devote enough to it, it's the easiest of all combo to hate out.
I think the meta is in prime position for this deck to win some tournaments. People just dont play ichorid extensively since the LED version is unstable. Ive hopped on the LED-free train and Im loving it.
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
(apology for double post)
Want to keep this thread alive with a mild alteration from other lists on here for the non-LED build. For those who have played this version for countless more games than I(namely, Deathwing/Pulp Fiction)I have a list I would love some input on to see if this setup has been tried etc... I am loving it at the moment, it is consistently winning turns 2-4 with some BUSTED plays.
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
*(note- this mana base is really solid, well as solid as it can be for 5c)
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Street Wraith
4 Putrid Imp
2 Tireless tribe
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
sb:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
4 Wispmare
3 Chain of Vapor
Yes- NO breakthrough. Street wraith makes for busted turn 1 plays since we do not have a free discard oultet like LED. Running 4 Imp, 2 Tribe is seriously amazing. There is not a hand that doesnt get better with a permanent outlet like that in there. I cannot justify running darkblast in my meta, the creatures I see are all to large, I dont see enough ROCK to worry about Teeg etc. Goyfs are my biggest worry and I can just swarm those decks.
Comments appreciated, this may get played at a tourney soon.
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
I like this version, although i'm a LED based dredge...maybe unmask should be considered. And....breakthrough seems quite better than street wraith.
Unmask would only be run in place of careful study if I was fearing combo. If they win the die roll and win turn 1, it wont help you anyway. Chalice game 2/3 and therapy should be good enough to keep them off winning too quickly.
Breakthrough without LED IMO is not better than wraith. You need to wait till turn 2 to play breakthrough with this deck. And emptying your hand in this build is not what we want to do. Playing lands is why this deck is more consistent. If we throw them away to breakthrough, we are playing a slow version of LED'd Ichorid. I will likely drop 1 dread return for tribe #3
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
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