[OLD] UGw Threshold

[Terminator1k]

Mongoose is still quite formidable, especially against Control, Fishesque, and decks with low threat counts. Besides, It might be a matter of semantics, but if you drop Mongoose, at least in my opinion, you are no longer playing Thresh, but UGx Fish.

IMO this is threshold due to semantics and heritage of the deck name, but no longer qualifies as that. Perhaps if you include the lonely mystic enforcer, but even with that, you only have ponder+brainstorm as cantrip to reach some kind of threshold for your mongoose. On the other hand, the deck is not defined by this card...if it where so, we would still be using werebears instead of goyfs, don't you think so?

Talking about the critter, don't get me wrong, mongoose has won me so many matches that I really like it, but not in a deck that is not getting the seven cards in the graveyard quick enough. If you run builds that feature wasteland, ponder, daze, lightning bolt, etc, threshold is so quick that mongoose is a monster.

With the build we are discussing, wich I see as CB dependant (aren't we playing 4x MD?), you aren't relying too much on graveyard, but on CB to stablish control. Other than that, you add 4x 1cc more to a deck that has to have diverse cc for CB to be relevant.

I really think that threshold (or NLB, or Bant'o Goyf, or NLBant, whatever), has to evolve and leave older elements that no longer belong to a meta or archetype. You no longer use stifle, predict (well sometimes), and so on, so leave space for new and defining cards. Better have somthing new (RWM, TPredator) adapted to the new meta, than something old as mongoose on a deck that no longer needs it.

I know it's meta dependant, but mine has Goyfslight all over the place as well as Gobos and Merfolk, wich are omnipresent. I'm matching so many vials and quick rushes that the addition of jitte perhaps do the thing for me. With the tutor, you get a virtual second copy of the artifact, as for the much needed EE on other MU (ichorid, merfolk, gobos), or pithing naming factory against landstill. I'm about to test as a 1x MD, and see if it works fine in my meta, because it seems quite techy and unexpected.

My last point on discussion is the counter-suite:

4 CB
4 FoW
3 Daze
2 Counterspell

My reasoning for this is quite simple. As games go long, the use for daze is to be pitched for Fow or as a cc2 for CB. Sometimes, all you need is the sheer power of hard counter, and in those times a counterspell is on top with the library, so you can use it to CB as daze, and to counter that tombstalker, fireblast or similars that can only be answered with Fow. As the meta evolve, you can't no longer rely on your 1,2,3 cc for CB to completely lock the opp, and people start to mess with cc in order to break the balancing (ever played EE for 2 paying 3 mana?) These are the cases you want to see the Counterspell waiting for you.

On the other hand, people will assume you're playing 4x, and it also creates the illusion of "always dazing your spells".

[Captain Hammer]

I completely agree with you.

Most of the current builds of thresh, playing 4 CB + 3 Top, don't reach threshold nearly fast enough to justify 4 Nimble Mongoose anymore.

A 1/1 untargetable without evasion that becomes a 3/3 untargetable without evasion on turn 5 is no where near the sheer size or utility of the other threats that this deck can play (Tarmogoyf, Mystic Enforcer, Trygon Predator & Knight of Reliquary).

Your threats should be large enough to block weenies and survive in the early game to buy you time versus aggro (occasionally pumping themselves up +2/+2 in the process like Knight), and should grow to be hulk size monsters by the mid-late game. Mongoose fails at both roles. Mongoose often has no real use either early game or lategame. Even wearbear atleast taps for mana during the early game, and becomes modestly large by the midgame. And that card doesnt make the cut. Why should a creature with even less utility make the cut instead?

P.S: Rhox doesn't make the cut either. The card is crap except against the occasional goblins/burn/sligh matchup.

[Cenarius]

The only problem with playing cards like Trygon predator, KoR and Mystic Enforcer is that they are fairly slow or small (in case of Trygon predator) when you play it early game.
Nimble Mongoose helps you to have the early game pressure you need to resolve cards like Tarmogoyf, Mystic Enforcer etc. Although Trygon Predator has a nice effect, its damage is fairly low. An 6-7 turn clock is too slow in this format, even with CB/top on the table.
Playing Predict helps you getting CA and helps you to get faster Threshold. Without playing predict's it is ofcourse too hard to let Nimble Mongoose be a real threat. I agree on that.

[Captain Hammer]

I'm going to cut out your criticisms of Trygon Predator as a beatstick because simply, that is not the role that Predator serves. It's not there to deal damage. It's there as a recurring Seal of Cleansing in a meta that is obsessing over CB+Top Oblivion Ring and Dreadnought and other enchantments.

Even as a beatstick Predator deals roughly the same damage as Mongoose, and actually has evasion to boot where as Mongoose even as a 3/3 is small enough that it gets stuck unable to attack if your opponent has in play any of the creatures popular in the format, but that's not the point. Because predator is not a card that would be replacing Mongoose. It's a card that replaces Oblvion Ring depending on how many enchantments and artifacts show up where you play.

The only problem with playing cards like KoR and Mystic Enforcer is that they are fairly slow... when you play it early game.
Nimble Mongoose helps you to have the early game pressure you need to resolve cards like Tarmogoyf, Mystic Enforcer etc.

Since when did swinging with a 1/1 qualify as applying pressure? It doesn't. By the time Mongoose becomes a 3/3, you can play any of the other threats I listed and everyone of them except for Goyf would be twice the size that Mongoose is.

You're right that if you manage to cast Predict early on, you can get threshold faster.

But some builds don't play Predict, and those that do often play 2 Predict. You can't count on seeing a card early game when you're only playing two copies of it. You need to play 8 copies of a card to be able to count on seeing one early with any consistency.

[Omega]

Mongoose can apply early pressure. Sometimes it can deal 5 damage (against Landstill Ie when they dont draw mishra, and since they cant destroy it with ping removal)
Against a deck like landstill, 5 damage can become very important.

Against TA, every damage matters.

Against ANT combo, every damage done is important

[Captain Hammer]

One turn 6 swing with any of the other creatures (Goyf, Enforcer or Knight of Reliquary) is equavlent to those five early swings with Mongoose.

And realistically all those other creatures are playable on turn 3-4, so Mongoose actually only gets three turns worth of additional swings for a total of three damage.

You'll probably argue that the other creatures can be killed by an StP. But that StP was going to hit your Goyf or Enforcer regardless, the more Goyf type creatures you play, the more you'll be able to keep in play.

And also, Mongoose can just as easily be hit by either a Factory or an EE. And landstill plays more Factories and EEs than it does StPs. So if you're taking up the premise that the opponent doesn't see either a Factory or an EE for the first five-six turns, I can just as easily take up the premise that your opponent doesn't see an StP for the first five-six turns. And by then, the other guys would've dealt more damage than Mongoose, even if they didn't come out till turn four.

You can argue that that 3 damage matters. But you'll have a tough time convincing me that that's good enough to warrant devoting four slots in the deck to.

[Omega]

If you are landstill player. Are you going to ee @ 1 for a non ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh mongoose? He will likely keep it in hand to answer goyf and CB

[Captain Hammer]

Fine, regardless.

Landstill plays the same number of Mishra's Factories as it does StP. So as explained above, if Mongoose is replaced by 2 Knight of Reliquary and 2 Mystic Enforcer, either card would deal more damage than Mongoose by turn 5 under the same ideal conditions you laid out.

[mackaber]

I wonder how often ya'll have played against / with landstill. From my experiences this is the MU where mongoose is at it's absolute best. You also have to remeber that a turn one mongoose from your side of the board makes their standstill that much worse and since they can't sword it Standstill sudenly becomes rather subpar if they don't have a factory to back it up.

[Captain Hammer]

Yes, mongoose is a great counter to early standstill. That much I agree with.

But other than this situation, I think in general, a threatbase of...

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of Reliquary
2 Trygon Predator
2 Mystic Enforcer

is stronger than a threatbase of...

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator

I see the former being a lot more useful and powerful against a lot more matchups and in a lot more situations than the latter. And yet, most of the current lists seem to run the latter as the threatbase.

Since the deck currently only has 10 slots to devote to creatures. Why not devote them to the 10 biggest/strongest most overwhelming creatures it can get it's hands on.

I mean, beating down with creatures is the only win condition that this deck has afterall.

[PowrDragn]

This could just be my inexperience of the format talking, but why not move to something like the following? :

4 Windeswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

18 Lands

4 Tarmogofy
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Trygon Predator
2 Knight of Reliquary
1 Mystic Enforcer

12 Creatures

4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Ponder
3 Daze
1 Counterspell
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pithing Needle
4 Swords to Plowshares

31 Spells


Something like this seems to be a good middle ground. Having the Goose as an early play is still nice and it is a creature that's hard to kill while you're trying to get your work done with the others.

I'd like to make room for one more Counterspell in this version, but otherwise, I think it's fine.

Threshold isn't an issue. You'll still reach it enough for it to be relevant and useful, but you're not worried about reaching it.

[Terminator1k]

I wonder how often ya'll have played against / with landstill. From my experiences this is the MU where mongoose is at it's absolute best. You also have to remeber that a turn one mongoose from your side of the board makes their standstill that much worse and since they can't sword it Standstill sudenly becomes rather subpar if they don't have a factory to back it up.

If mongoose shines vs a MU is vs landstill. As you say, landstill plays mishra, so got this gamestate:

Turn1: Mongoose.
Turn2: Standstill on play.

You start to apply mongoose beats. Because you're afraid of breaking the still, you don't reach threshold and landstill player lay a factory. Then your mongoose apply the last point of damage, and you run into landstill gamestate, mid-late game without any defense on board. You break standstill EOT with your brainstorm, but your opp is so well ready to play, that has the perfect hand. Dont' get me wrong, mongoose is nice vs landstill, but they play around it on a lot of manners. Heck, even a cycled decree will kill your mongoose on the fifth turn (remember they don't break standstill) and then get the pressure on you.

If you play mongoose on this deck is because you're playing the threshold archetype and you need early pressure on board or a cantrip suite that serves enough for the critter. I really think that 4 Stp,4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm doesn't do the trick (yeah, you have fetchies), you would need the predicts, and so on, but predict is not worth the slot on a CB deck.

Another idea I though was to use a lonely Life from the Loam on the deck, but this time you're towards a Is The Fear kind of deck. LfL has real sinergy with CB (you see 3 card don't, like, you get rid of them) and also enables thold so quick. ITF is a deck I played for a while, but found quite slow for my tastes and style of play.

Is KotR really worth the slot for the Rhox War Monk? I see the guy is really nuts, but you have to get on mind that Rhox can be pitched to fow, and is a real beastick vs aggro. IMO when you play this kind of deck you're getting on the field "good vs anything but bad vs anything", so you have to somehow define your deck.

The beater on your deck is the Goyf (well, perhaps your trygon riding a Jitte to victory ), and this guy is a kinda win more. I think it should be relegated to builds that feature wasteland or ARuins (ITF is one deck I couls see playing him), not a CB deck that sometimes doesn't want to have a shuffle efect that also makes your guy tap out.

RWM on the other hand is a wall on the table. It stops the majority of threats and is beast vs burn (yeah, remember that deck that doesn't care of your deck). I see it as Fow pitcher vs combo, as trygon could be.

I'm thinking on including a lonely threads of disloyalty for one of the Oring. It has the same effect with CB on top, gets some tarmo/Confidant/Dreadnought and can be pitched to FoW. Notice I'm really worried to have shenaningans to pich to fow, as the deck develops you have to keep in mind the fundamentals, and this is one of them.

[PowrDragn]

I was just reviewing some tournament results from last month and it seems that Boros/Goyf Sligh/Zoo, is making a top 8 almost every time. They just aren't in the decks to beat, due to being different decks, but honestly, they function similarly.

This being the case, would we rather have RWM to protect ourselves. Hell, even against Merfolk it can be a bit of lifegain to help us survive an extra turn or two.

[Cenarius]

Those decks are already easy to get with CB/top and with the Hydroblast's in sideboard. Trust me, you don't need to play a creature that is multi-mana intensive, just because it is good against such deck.
The following cards are pretty stuck for me:

4 Goyf
2 Trygon Predator
(3/4 Nimble mongoose)
1 Mystic Enforcer

4 CB
1 Oblivion Ring

3 Top

4 Force
3/4 Daze (4 if you play B2B)
4 brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
Xx Predict's (you guys don't seem to like them, but they are the only CA you have, it is important playing against another Agro-Control deck).

The rest of the cards seem to be filled in with your need's. O ring + Trygon Predator does not need extra cards that deal with Artifact's and Enchantment like Pithing Needle. It's just probably too much.
Personally I still think that B2B is really strong in my Metagame, so that will be in my deck.

[PowrDragn]

OK guys. I played 12 games today against Goyf Sligh and won 7. This was all presideboard. I also lost one game to an unfortunate draw (Brainstorm into 2x Brainstorm + Island with no way to shuffle). One game I lost to my opponent having a spectacular burn draw to go with 3x Goyf. Make of that what you will with the results.

I also made a couple of changes to include RWM. I wanted to see how he fared against aggro decks. The build I played looked like:

3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Enlightended Tutor
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Ponder
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 counterspell
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Trygon Predator
2 Rhox War Monk
3 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

Before, I go any further, I understand that this is a small sample size. So, take the results with a grain of salt. I did play against two competent players during the course of the games, so I'm not worried about that spect of the testing.

And yes, I'm aware that the list is 61 cards. I couldn't decide what to cut and I'd also moved up to 18 land. It didn't appear to swing the testing results too much one way or the other.

Anyway, my observations...

Rhox War Monk is really good. I didn't ever run into issue playing him. He always forced a 2-for-1 situation or allowed me to gain enough life to put the game out of reach. I won at least three games strictly due to RWM (Possibly a 4th, but definitely 3). I don't think the deck needs any more at this time, but I was never upset seeing them.

Knight of the Reliquary only came up twice. Once it was a game winner just due to size. In the other game, it went into super grow mode and did something interesting. I was a 4/4 (2/2 + 2 Flooded Strand in graveyard). My opponent target it with Rift Bolt, then Magma Jet. I sac'd a land to get Windswept Heath, then sac'd it to get a Tropical Island. That made him a 6/6 (2/2 + sac'd Tropical Island + 2 Flooded Strand + 1 Windeswept Heath). It also shot me right up to Threshold to go with a Mongoose I had.

That's definitely something interesting to think about. I'm not sure where to squeeze room for one more unfortunately. I would definitely give this guy some more consideration and say that it definitely need to be tested more. It could even be used to get you out from under Back to Basics if needed.

The singular Mystical Tutor only came up twice, but it was nice both times. Once I used it to get an Oblivion Ring which turned into a game winning situation. The other time I used to get a Counterbalance which helped me crawl back from behind.

I also removed the Pithing Needles entirely, in exchange for Counterspell. These were nice to have around. I agree that Trygon Predator reduces the need for main deck Pithing Needle. Of course, if you are in an artifact heavy environment, go ahead and paly them.

So, for me, as it turns out, I like both of the new additions to the deck. I think they both warrant more testing. If you are against either card, I recommend playing them and seeing how well they work out for you. Personally, I'd like to play 2 KotR and 2 RWM, but I'm not sure there's room. Even with this 61 card list, I'm having trouble deciding what to pull.

My comments could be worthless, but if nothing else, maybe I'm providing a starting point for someone else.

[Terminator1k]

Well, congrats on your report for the new deck. IMO you don't need the mongooses and these open up slots for you to use, and try to get rid of the 61th card. You also really need the 4th CB, because is the MVP (think of it as the 4th goyf on this deck).

Manabase should be 18 lands, trying to minimize duals count (2 Tropical, 3 Tundra?) or even cutting one of the fetchs (you run ponder, so you will be shuffling a lot).

Regarding the critters, I would cut the mistic enforcer and the KOR. This is my actual build for critics.

4 FStrand
3 WHeap
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
3 TIsland
3 Tundra

4 Goyf
2 Trygon
2 RWM
1 Mystic Enforcer <- Probably getting rid of it.

4 StP
1 O'Ring

2 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 FoW
4 CBalance

3 SdT
1 EExplosives
1 Vedalken Shackles

2 E.Tutor <- Probably one is the best

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

Not really sure on the 2nd Tutor and the Mystic Enforcer. Also considering cutting the Shackles for the second EE or anything else. You guys really think the deck run good enough with only 18 lands?

I intend to run it on a test session, and see if it works fine to get to the GP. As soon as I have report, I'll write it down.

[Misplayer]

Played UGbw (with thoughseize, swords, confidant) last night at a small local tournament and luckily convinced the Goyf Sligh player to draw after we were both 2-0 heading into the last round. We played out some games and I got rocked. CB/Top is not as good as you think, especially because once you get it online with mana open you've already taken at the very least 5 damage and he usually has a beater on the table. 4 Blasts came in g2 but he gets Grip and Shusher - not good. I needed RWM badly in this matchup and I think it deserves a slot in any sideboard headed to Chicago.

[Adan]

Played UGbw (with thoughseize, swords, confidant) last night at a small local tournament and luckily convinced the Goyf Sligh player to draw after we were both 2-0 heading into the last round. We played out some games and I got rocked. CB/Top is not as good as you think, especially because once you get it online with mana open you've already taken at the very least 5 damage and he usually has a beater on the table. 4 Blasts came in g2 but he gets Grip and Shusher - not good.

The matchup against Goyf Sligh usually becomes garbage when you add Dark Confidant and Thoughtseize...

I needed RWM badly in this matchup and I think it deserves a slot in any sideboard headed to Chicago.

[Cenarius]

When playing UGw, this manabase is prob the best:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Do not cut the Tropical Island, since you have far more green (creature) cards than white card's.

[Terminator1k]

Played UGbw (with thoughseize, swords, confidant) last night at a small local tournament and luckily convinced the Goyf Sligh player to draw after we were both 2-0 heading into the last round. We played out some games and I got rocked. CB/Top is not as good as you think, especially because once you get it online with mana open you've already taken at the very least 5 damage and he usually has a beater on the table. 4 Blasts came in g2 but he gets Grip and Shusher - not good. I needed RWM badly in this matchup and I think it deserves a slot in any sideboard headed to Chicago.

Well, I'm going to test it with 3 Tundra because of some techy with WW on it's casting cost from the sideboard. As far as my build goes, you only need to have G in order to cast everything on the deck. On the other hand, should you be worried about wasteland, go for the Forest.

I really see the RWM winning a pair of slots MD. As adam and his team (or Adam's team) spoiled, is quite tech vs all the aggro running around.

Regaring your MU vs RDW, and it's 5 damage on board. Better get some Threads from your side and some BEB that should be. CB + Top is the LOCK vs this deck, and anything you put in front of him (RWM, specially) should be golden to stop the beats. On the other hand, aren't you running 4xStP? Perhaps you got unlucky on your draw, but UWg should be 65% preboard and 75% post board. On the other hand, as Adam says, THGS and DC from your Black splash is also "splash" damage.

i'm trying to convince myself about the 4xPonder, because the exchange semms like 20 Land or 18 + 4 Ponder. I think the "sorcery" from Ponder helps with Goyf, but we should be watching out for opposing goyf. At now, I wont go in a tournament without 2xToD between MD and SB. You would be facing a 60% of decks with the goofy on it's deck.

Please, salivate on the idea of getting a Dreadnough...