Scrow, please use the edit button...
But on a more positive note thank you so much for showing us those numbers on a 61 card deck.
feefox: each card in hand!!!!
ridicolous
only fortune
I have been playing this list with a very strong take on smokestack/crucible lock:
3 Flagstone
3 wasteland
1 horizon canopy
1 kor haven
2 god's eye, gate to the reikai(TECH!!!)
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
2 blinkmoth nexus
6 plains
4 smokestack
4 crucible of worlds
4 chalice of the void
3 oblivion ring
4 magus of the tabernacle
4 armageddon
4 mox diamond
4 ghostly prison
4 trinisphere
gods eye solves a problem ive had actually getting a way to win after i manage a board lock... blinkmoth may not be perfect but its a way to chump tombstalker or anything airborne.
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
Blinkmoth Nexus is cool, but the savage tech is Mishra's Factory with Humility. Humility makes all creatures 1/1 with no abilities, but Factory remains a 2/2, so it kills anything else in combat. I like the idea of chump-blocking Tombstalker, but it won't beat another Factory on the defense.
As for not getting a kill condition, if you have 3x Factory and 4x Magus, and the lock in place, you will inevitably get your kill conditions. You don't need to rush if you have them locked out.
As far as God's Eye, it is anti-synergistic with Magus+Armageddon. I generally only have 1 mana source after I drop Armageddon, unless I had already hit Mox and Flagstone. It might work, but I find myself struggling to find any slots in the MD for more non-white lands.
If winning isn't an issue, God's Eye is fine. You can use whatever you want. God's Eye doesn't do anything you want it to. The token doesn't block anything, it isn't good under Smokestack/Crucible lock and it doesn't make white mana. Flagstones doesn't make a token, but it is good with Smokestack/Crucible and does make white mana.
"Michael opens with Lotus Petal, Academy Ruins, Phyrexian Dreadnaught, and Stifle. I Force of Will the Stifle, but he has Force of Will backup. I Ponder on turn one and again on turn two, but fail to find a Swords to Plowshares before he has smashed me twice. " That's losing to Mike Sanchirico.
Team Bad Guys.
You're both right. God's Eye is a card which fits the Stax idea, it helps keep your Smokestack at 2 with ease. But there are better cards which fit that purpose, the -almost always better option- is as mentioned, Flagstones with a slightly higher Plains count (7 or 8). The other option is Elspeth. God's Eye isn't bad, but there are simply better options.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
I have to say, it's bad. It provides colorless mana and has a marginal effect outside the fact that it's a terrible mana source.
Also, I think I am going to fit Pithing Needle in my board. It is too good and shoring up some bad matches. Dreadstill beats me by hitting Engineered Explosives, loses otherwise. So if I just stick a needle, they have a hell of a time getting through it. Same with Deed. Also hits Top, Survival, Keg, Cranial Plating, Nev's Disk, etc.
I've mentioned this several times on the site, and I'm still going to reiterate it. I believe that Pithing Needle is bad. It costs, and its bad enough that they're already bringing artifact destruction in against you game 2/3. I maindeck Suppression Field. Why? Please See the Quote Above.
"But Bobby, Needle doesn't stop Deed or Explosives! It just slows them Down"
-I understand, but by the time they would get enough mana, you should have dealt with the Deed/Explosive by then, or their land.
"But Bobby, If I got it late game, Pithing Needle would be better than Suppression Field, because you could stop it completely!"
-Ok... If you don't have Chalice for 1 out by now, either they've already blown Deed/EE, or Pithing Needle can't even be cast, without being countered by Chalice.
Moral of the Story - You needle Explosives. They Cast Viridian Zealot. you Needle Zealot. Rinse and Repeat. 3 Needles = 3 stopped abilities. 3 Suppression Fields = Problems for your opponents. It slows down everything. EVERYTHING! "Needle Strand, They Play Delta." Stop making your First instict decide whether you win or lose the game. And if you Play Mishra's Factories, then either A. Stop Playing Mishra's Factory or B. Stop Paying attention to me! and Please, If you disagree, Please reply to the post. I take all contructive critisizm. But March 7-8, when I goto the Grand Prix in Chicago, I am A. Going to have the best record with any White Stax Deck. I am very confidant that my Stax Deck will do amazing Down there and B. Suppression Field is going to win me more games than Pithing Needles will win any deck games.
Blinkmoth Nexus? I remember the first time I played Stax. I played Thran Dynamo, Gods Eye, Eternal Dragon, Decree of Justice, Mishra's Factory. A lot of these cards are good, but not good enough. Don't play Blinkmoth Nexus. It's not worth the loss of a white source. You're better off putting Forbidden Watchtower in.
If you want good Advice on the Deck, you can look at earlier posts from Myself (if they even are good), Mordel, Skeggi, and Arsenal. I will post more later, I gotta get some sleep.
P.S. What is up with 25-26 lnd? I run 23, and I never have a land problem.
[SIZE="1"][I]Team [Insert a name here - Akron?] - [very big point with adverbs modifying adjectives and other adverbs]
I know why you play Supression Field. I have it in my sideboard already. But I can't always resolve an Armageddon when I need to. And I have never seen Zealot out of the board against something like Dreadstill. I see a lot of EE. So if I needle EE and stick a Chalice @1, I win (usually).
Edit: No need to be so condescending, by the way. You act like I have never seen this deck before and don't understand simple concepts. I know how the cards work, and I know that I still get my ass handed to me by Dreadnought. I have had too many games that I could have won, but they ended up getting to 4 mana (as if that is so tough) and wiping the board.
Edit 2: Thank you Skeggi.
Last edited by scrow213; 02-18-2009 at 03:52 AM.
There has been alot of discussion about Pithing Needle and Suppression Field in this thread (I think there is one around page 40 or so, go ahead, read back, I'll wait). The basic outline is: Pithing Needle is almost a must in your sideboard. Often it is better than Suppression Field because it doesn't shut down your Wasteland, Factory, Horizon Canopy, Elspeth and what have you.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
This is poorly written and did little to move the discussion along. Consider using the edit function and condensing your ideas.
@ Skeggi: I went back to around page 40 and found debates about Mindlock Orb, how Elspeth works and Ethersworn Cannonist. Can you elaborate a little on how Needle is an auto-include?
"Michael opens with Lotus Petal, Academy Ruins, Phyrexian Dreadnaught, and Stifle. I Force of Will the Stifle, but he has Force of Will backup. I Ponder on turn one and again on turn two, but fail to find a Swords to Plowshares before he has smashed me twice. " That's losing to Mike Sanchirico.
Team Bad Guys.
Against Dreadstill wouldnt you want to land chalice @1 anyway? I ve always had issues running needle in a the board of a deck that runs chalice. You will almost always want to drop chalice @1 no matter what, which makes needle a dead card unless they nuke your chalice, but most of the stuff we want to needle costs more than 1 mana or is free. I would think as far as activated costs go, suppression field in multiples is the best answer we can get
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
Yes, you do. Until the EE it off the board, and drop a Dreadnought. Have you played this matchup? I have played it quite a bit, and Chalice @1 only buys time until they get EE, which they can then reuse with Academy Ruins. Once they get EE, you are screwed and just get to watch them stomp you.
The stuff we want to Needle is:
SDT (?)
Deed
EE
Nev's Disk
Powder Keg
Manlands (?)
etc.
Supression Field slows several of our cards (Mishra, Wasteland, Horizon Canopy, Kor Haven), which is crippling when you can't use a Mishra's Factory to block without at least 4 mana open (3 mana + Factory).
So I would probably stick a Needle on EE then stick a Chalice. If they are playing green, sure they would have Grips, but either way Grip would screw us.
The point is, versus Deed, Keg, Disk, EE, etc, all we can do is hope to draw enough Supression Fields and screw their lands permanently so they can't activate. You can't tell me that when you play against Deed or Dreadstill you can always stop them from hitting the mana needed to wipe the board and take over. I would rather take the risk and know for certain that Deed or EE is stopped, barring them drawing another card to remove the Needle.
Also, couldn't find a specific outline of why Needle is an auto-include (after reading about 20 pages), but saw a lot of similar points to the points I just made. Supression Field hurts us too, and often we only need to stop one card, not all of them.
Last edited by scrow213; 02-18-2009 at 03:19 PM. Reason: Corrections
Let me Clear some things up before I go play cards.
Scrow: You seem to be new to the stax forum, because I never saw you post before. I am not starting arguements, I'm not trying to make you look like you've never seen the deck before. The forum is to suggest Ideas, and Even though Patrick thinks I wrote too much non-sense, it really isn't. I run Suppression Field in my maindeck. the other 70% of people on here run Needle in the side. I've tested needle, and It is bad in my environment. My environment is highly competitive, so I have to keep my sideboard just like I would at an 800 person tournament. I know Suppression Field just slows them down, and It hurts the stax plyer as well, "but not to argue," just to throw more points out there, There are decks that run Moat, Humility, Needle, Elspeth. Then there are versions that run Magus, Ghostly Prison, Suppression field and Angel.
The first version Mentioned is a cretion by Skeggi, which has it's own forum under "New nd developmental decks." My next arguement is, why run Ghostly Prison? Once they get 2 Mana, they can just attack you. So why not just run Moat? Once they kill Ghostly prison, then they can swing freely. There is multiple 2 card-3 card combo advantages that this deck creates for the stax player. When you have suppression field out, they have to tie some mana down. when Ghostly Prison is out, the same. The same goes for Trinisphere, Magus, Defense Grid. The Point of the Stax Deck is so they don't have enough mana to do everything. If they play a spell, they don't hve enough mana to attack. If they attack, they can't fetch for a land. If they activte top, they can't cast a spell (Sorry Patrick, you must be getting irritated).
My Proposal is: The Deck makes the opponent use mana wisely. So I can see Needle being in the version where they dont lock down the opponents land.
I'm not rebuttleing to any comments made earlier. I Don't run Elspeth. I dont run Factory. I dont run Blinkmoth Nexus. I don't even run Kor Haven (Although I am going to test it tonight). I run Plain old Stax, No New Nothing.
I understand the PN vs SF, but Mainboard suppression Field is about as good as a chalice for 1. ll decks play fetches, and If not, they play equipments. Suppression Fields win you games against Enchantress, 42 Lands, and It wins me a lot of games. Period. If you agree, Let's Talk about it! If not, There is no need to argue. You should not have a problem with Dreadstill. O-Rings, Chalice, etc....
[SIZE="1"][I]Team [Insert a name here - Akron?] - [very big point with adverbs modifying adjectives and other adverbs]
So what exactly are your win conditions? Does every single one of your matches go to time? I cant see you winning games if you do not run manlands, and if you just run angel and magus(if you run angel), that sureley isnt enough since that makes all your win conditions counterable. I would like you to post your list for analysis
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
I haven't been posting long, but I have been lurking here for a few months. Why play Ghostly Prison instead of Moat? I think the reasoning is that it a) costs less to cast; b) doesn't require; and c) doesn't stop us from attacking with Magus or Mishra's Factory. And your reasoning that "once they kill Prison they can swing freely" applies the same to Moat. I don't see where that argument leads.
Furthermore, them not having enough mana to play multiple things doesn't end the game. Just 1 'goyf swinging every turn is all it takes. A smart player won't overextend into an Armageddon.
Your next point, "The Deck makes the opponent use mana wisely. So I can see Needle being in the version where they dont lock down the opponents land" I don't understand. Yes they use mana wisely. So using that mana to drop a Pernicious Deed and activate is wise. That's probably the best way to use mana wisely.
I am not trying to "just argue" either, but I think you are being harsh and condescending. Additionally, you said that Needle is bad in your environment, which is not what you stated last post:
"when I goto the Grand Prix in Chicago, I am A. Going to have the best record with any White Stax Deck. I am very confidant that my Stax Deck will do amazing Down there and B. Suppression Field is going to win me more games than Pithing Needles will win any deck games."
You basically said "Suppression Field is right, everything else is wrong." Which is not "Suppression Field is better in my meta."
I want to see your list, so I can test it. 23 lands? I don't see how that is feasible in a deck that runs 4x Mox Diamond and Armageddon, with a curve as high as ours is. We have to reliably hit land drops throughout the game, and we can't rely on Crucible to carry us every game.
Finally, how do you not have a problem with Dreadstill? They have counters, board sweepers, spot removal, card draw, and a 12/12 Trample. You Chalice, they counter or EE. You O-Ring, they counter or drop another Dreadnought. They have a lot of answers and a lot of options. Once they stick that Dreadnought, we have very few options of stopping it.
I for one have actually won a lot of times via magus beat down, even though angel and magus is indeed counterable, They wouldn't have counters for everything. They would rather counter chalice, trinisphere, smokestack, crucible. Actually I don't really see people countering magus or angels much. They actually kill it instead, since most decks have at least some creature control. Just because You dont run factories doesn't mean the deck gets really really slow. I for one never really found too much appeal on factories and run 4 wasteland and only 2 factories.
@ needle vs suppression
I always thought that both were good at what they do. Needle stops deed (which I really hate). Suppression field delays them. Needle is like targeted removal. While suppression field is more taxing. Field indeed hits a lot more than needle does, since it can hit fetch, deed, manlands, cycling, tops and more all at the same time. The problem with field is that, it doesn't necessarily stop them. At times, you will also be hit with suppression field, if you run wasteland and manlands. But you usually hurt the opponent more. Dropping field late game is kinda useless as well.
THis is how I see it, because this deck doesn't have a draw engine at all, we cannot always rely on drawing an armageddon or having the ability to prevent the opponent from having 4 or more mana, to be able to evade suppression fields taxing ability. I can compare it to ghostly prison, where in people would just pay to to be able to hurt us as long as they have the mana to do so. I think needle is better in my case.
@dreadstill
Its a tough match up since prisons are almost dead in this match up. Standstill wrecks us. They would almost all the time counter chalice. Since most dreadstill decks now are dropping the green splash to focus more it becomes harder to disrupt their mana base. Stax still loses to creatures that tend to be stand alone or equipped. Pithing needle doesn't do much in this matchup, just like suppression field. If you are able to, you can probably splash a hint of green, just for K. grips if dreadstill running rampant in your meta. maybe add 2-3 duals, and the diamonds would take care of the rest. I remember skeggi running a few red duals just to splash ajani and boil, and I don't think it hurt his mana base at all. If you run some green splash, it could give you access to K. grip, tsunamis or choke. This would probably help you out a lot against blue based decks.
I have never really tinkered with the light green splash yet, its just a thought and could come very handy. Only if your not scared of splashing colors. Now that I presented it, I might test it out myself. I was actually testing out the blue splash with thirst, but I'll play around with splashes more and infrom you of whatever works. U stax however has been making top 8 lately, running sower of temptation maindeck. The other blue stax deck that made top 1 out of 65 has a splash of white for armageddon. Plays almost exactly like geddon stax.
I'm going to try and keep the posts short, and just address a few topics from now on. I Played Tonight, and I added Thirst for Knowledge. It worked Great FYI. I did Not go to time at all. I played Mono Black Round 1, and Killed him game two with SStax and three with Magus/Geddon, even got through 2x Gloom Game 2. Then I played against Survival, and I just destroyed him between multiple Geddons and Suppression Field. Game Three, Suppression Field stopped Dredges Colloseum Game 1 and 3Sphere/Prison Shut him off Game two. Fourth, I played Team America, and He had all the answers for my lands and I didn't stand a chance. Finals I Beat Dreadstill by Racing the Dreadnought with the Controlling -Sphere, Magus, Geddon (Chalice was countered) sequence-. Top 2 was against team america gain, and I Simply Beat His Face in with a hammer. Extirpates the Geddons game 2, with magus on board, and I top Deck Ravages. I will post a list later this week scrow. I'm re-building a little.
[SIZE="1"][I]Team [Insert a name here - Akron?] - [very big point with adverbs modifying adjectives and other adverbs]
I've looked it up. Page 41. Fred Bear elaborates among other things why Pithing Needle is good. (Ctr+F that page for 'needle').
Yeah against Dreadstill Chalice@1 is awesomesauce. But why would you want to board in Pithing Needle against Dreadstill?
DreadStill doesn't run Deed. They do run EE, but that's no real reason to run Pithing Needle (most DreadStill lists can only make 2 colors anyway, plus you can 'save' your 3-mana cards in your hand, be careful with Oblivion Ring though). Most DreadStill lists don't run Nev's Disk. You should run Powder Keg against DreadStill. You would shut down your own Manlands if you shut down theirs, and you have Crucible.
This is true. But I'm leaning more towards green splash for Choke at the moment. I must say, I prefer either Boil or Choke over stuff like Defense Grid: it just has better synergy with Trinisphere.
I hate to burst your bubble, but mono-black isn't really a good deck. Mono-black with Glooms is highly doubtful.
Yup, that should do the trick. But hey, on the Suppression Field/Pithing Needle discussion: now you need Suppression Field and Armageddon to stop Survival. You could just use 1 Pithing Needle and you're set.
Again, Pithing Needle on Colloseum...what does Ichorid play for 1 you want to Chalice out anyway? (Nothing a Trinisphere can't handle, I can tell you)
TA is a tough match-up. If you encounter alot of these (or DreadStill) in your meta, you may want to try Dutch Stax, it has better odds against these decks.
Very good job, these are both very hard match-ups for Stax.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
I wasn't listing cards that we use Needle for against Dreadstill. I was listing cards in general that we use Needle for. As for the Dreadstill matchup, the point I have been trying to make is that with them moving from the green splash, if we stick Needle on EE and Chalice @1, we win. If we stick Chalice @1, they drop EE and win. I have run across this problem time and time again. I don't know how to better combat it. And I still have a shit SB with no ideas how to improve it, and still suck at sideboarding. Here is my SB:
3x Defense Grid
3x Suppression Field (Pithing Needle)
3x Humility
3x Runed Halo
3x Aura of Silence
So how can I change this to make it better? And I still (even after reading pages and pages of this thread) suck at knowing what comes out and what goes in. Thresh? Goblins? Landstill? 43Land? Dreadstill? I never know, so I take out cards that I wish I didn't and draw cards that turn out useless, so I clearly am terrible at sideboarding. Anything will help. Thanks!
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