[Deck] Merfolk

[memnarch]

Counterbalance? Thoughtseize? I can go on and on, but the lack of counterbalance is the most important one. This deck isn't that good against ANT. It surely isn't an autowin. It might even be unfavorable or even. I have played against this deck with ANT on a tournament and won. It was pretty close, that is true and it doesn't mean that much, but I know combo well enough to pretty much figure out the matchup just by looking at the decklist. It's one of the better decks against combo, but without Counterbalance, certainly winnable for combo.

Thank you. I think thresh and stacks has a better chance against it, possibly even loam, chalice surely does damage. So the question is, do we want to relegate SB slots for it? I say yes. If so what would you use? the Thorn doesn't seem like a bad option, maybe even coming in against burn with chill?

[srsbsns]

i am really not understanding this bit about 'folk being mediocre against ANT. how much can the combo player do on their second turn when i've got cursecatcher on board, stifle mana up, and daze in my hand? people keep mentioning counterbalance, when counterbalance is only good with top out in play, and the likeliness of them having both out is a lot less then the chances that i'll have cursecatcher on the first turn with a counter in my hand

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

The point of the example is that buying *AN* extra turn isn't worth it. Although you're supporting the correct way to play burn, keep in mind that one turn is not enough to make it worth it.

You really need to buy 2-3 extra turns to even consider it, since gas is usually the deciding factor and you're unlikely to outdraw the other player by two spells in two turns. I'd rather have -1 draw for myself, -1 draw for my opponent, and +1 burn spell any day.

But anyway, I wouldn't worry too much about Burn, since it's the worst deck in Legacy and all

Thanks for the explanation, Forbiddian. Like I said, I really don't play Burn, I just like my deck to have a few more tricks up its sleeve... so the downside is that there are a few of the finer points I don't get about how to play... well, pretty much the simplest deck there is.

But my friend has been playing RDW, Burn, etc, in tournaments of different formats, for about five or six years, and it's pretty much all he plays, so I had a hard time believing that he just didn't understand how to play his deck against a Weenie deck with disruption... I can see burning lords, maybe Wakethrasher in the right circumstance, but as Forbiddian has been illustrating so well, in Burn decks your removal doubles as your win condition, and there's no reliable card-draw, so you have to be willing to play with your life total on the edge. From what experience I've had in the match-up, Burn doesn't really plan on burning our creatures, so much as it's prepared to do it if it's the only way to save its ass...

Anyways though, I think Kira is still worth a thought, but mostly for decks with StP, Rock decks, Mono Black of pretty much any form, stuff like that... The thing is, besides StP, I don't think most of those decks get that much play... Correct me if I'm wrong.

Honestly, the main thought that occurs to me based on all this is... Psionic Blast may be worth taking a closer look at. For example, I've noticed that this deck gets fucked hard by Ensnaring Bridge, Moat, and to a lesser extent Propaganda/Ghostly Prison... stuff like that. Echoing Truth is good in this situation, but if there's any way to find the space for it, I think two copies of Psi-Blast could actually prove to be good in a number of match-ups, either sideboard, or if any creative soul can find room in the main-deck...

Here's my argument for Psi-Blast, in brief: It seems to me that this is pretty much the most down-and-dirty way to deal with the stalling out problem that we occasionally encounter. I've found no problem getting the opponent down to pretty low life so far, as long as I don't keep shitty hands, but sometimes those last few points of damage are a little harder to come by. I can see how it could help us push through the last few points under a lock. And against a fair amount of decks that don't employ any kind of creature-lock, we could swing with the whole team and then surprise the fuck out of them by Psi-Blasting them to death when they thought they had a turn to stabilize.

I'd like to hear some thoughts on Psionic Blast, because I don't think it's gotten enough discussion... Or else, I could be wrong. *After all, I am the one who suggested Ankh, and technically Unstable Mutation (although that was only a red herring to see whose advice not to take. dastardly, no?) I will say this though: Unless we're at two or less life (or if our opponent is packing some sort of burn and we're at five or less with no counter), Psionic Blast is never a completely dead top-deck.

[elof]

I like the ideá of Psi-Blast to, however, I havn't gotten time to test i yet. It sounds really intresting, but I think it needs to be playtested first...

[Brizentine Empire]

i am really not understanding this bit about 'folk being mediocre against ANT. how much can the combo player do on their second turn when i've got cursecatcher on board, stifle mana up, and daze in my hand? people keep mentioning counterbalance, when counterbalance is only good with top out in play, and the likeliness of them having both out is a lot less then the chances that i'll have cursecatcher on the first turn with a counter in my hand

Agreed. I played Merfolk in the Meandeck Open on Sunday, and beat ANT in round four. Both games I had cursecatcher and daze in hand, and in game two I resolved standstill on turn two, three, and five, with force+ blue card on each turn. Truth is, he never had a chance. Maybe I just got lucky, but I see storm combo as a very favorable MU. I beat Thresh, Team America, MUC, and ANT in my frist four rounds and drew the last two rounds into the playoffs, where I lost to White Weenie first round. Got Destroyed!

[Phoenix Ignition]

But my friend has been playing RDW, Burn, etc, in tournaments of different formats, for about five or six years, and it's pretty much all he plays, so I had a hard time believing that he just didn't understand how to play his deck against a Weenie deck with disruption...

Eventually you will learn that time =/= skill. The fact that your friend has been playing burn decks exclusively for 5 years says a lot about his skill.

I can see burning lords, maybe Wakethrasher in the right circumstance, but as Forbiddian has been illustrating so well, in Burn decks your removal doubles as your win condition, and there's no reliable card-draw, so you have to be willing to play with your life total on the edge. From what experience I've had in the match-up, Burn doesn't really plan on burning our creatures, so much as it's prepared to do it if it's the only way to save its ass...

Killing Wake Thrasher gives them an extra 4-5 turns, where they draw 3 more spells on average. Same with burning a lord. Magma Jet kills both and ensures more burn to come. Don't naively think that the burn player has to race us. We can do 10+ damage in a turn if we get going, but 1-3 damage a turn if we don't.

No, Forbiddian didn't show anything other than in the situation listed, the burn player is better off waiting

Anyways though, I think Kira is still worth a thought, but mostly for decks with StP, Rock decks, Mono Black of pretty much any form, stuff like that... The thing is, besides StP, I don't think most of those decks get that much play... Correct me if I'm wrong.

You're wrong. Burn isn't even the bad matchup, Goyf Sligh is. They combine burning our folk with swinging with big creatures.

Honestly, the main thought that occurs to me based on all this is... Psionic Blast may be worth taking a closer look at. For example, I've noticed that this deck gets fucked hard by Ensnaring Bridge, Moat, and to a lesser extent Propaganda/Ghostly Prison... stuff like that. Echoing Truth is good in this situation, but if there's any way to find the space for it, I think two copies of Psi-Blast could actually prove to be good in a number of match-ups,

How would 2 Psionic Blast be better than 2 Echoing Truth in these situations, ever? We always have at least 4 damage on the board if they have a wall like that up. That and the extra 4 damage one-shot is rarely going to be the finishing blow, not to mention it doesn't take care of any creature that we're afraid of. And it auto shocks us, which is huge considering how many games I win by 2 or less life.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

"If you'll read my response, you'll also note that I never thought you were replacing ET with PB. Why wouldn't you run ET #3 and 4 instead of some 4 damage burn spell?" -Phoenix Ignition

Well, maybe because there's potentially room for both in the sideboard, or else P-blast could take up two of the freestyle slots in the main-deck? Think of that?

Psi-Blast is never a completely dead top-deck unless it would kill us immediately or next turn. This isn't true about Daze, Stifle, Standstill, and Relic: cards which have definitely proven themselves worthy of the main-deck. I'm not flat-out advocating Psi-Blast, but I think it deserves actual testing instead of just speculative Negative-Nancy-ing.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Well, maybe because there's potentially room for both in the sideboard, or else P-blast could take up two of the freestyle slots in the main-deck? Think of that?

Yes, I have thought of that. Some of us have been playing this deck for over half a year, and have considered many cards and many different strategies. That's not to say we've considered every card, but we do have a general idea of what will work and not. PB has been suggested before, but it just doesn't help enough. Why has Flametongue Kavu been dropped completely from almost every list? Because 4 damage doesn't cut it. 4 to the face isn't as good as synergy with our deck.

And if you really want to respond productively, argue with my statement that Psi-Blast is never a completely dead top-deck unless it would kill us immediately or next turn. This isn't true about Daze, Stifle, Standstill, and Relic: cards which have definitely proven themselves worthy of the main-deck.

Psi Blast is no good if they're at more than 4 life and you're losing the damage race. Also it costs 3 and doesn't take care of threatening creatures.

I'm not flat-out advocating Psi-Blast, but I think it deserves actual testing instead of just speculative Negative-Nancy-ing.

Test it then and come back with results.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Maybe it's just me... but posting lists from Europe as an argument tool just doesn't seem right when you guys play in America(If i'm correct).

Most of the time i look at those lists and wonder how anyone in their right mind could win with such bad cards. Unstable Mutation belongs in Mono U Aggro, not Merfolk.

[elof]

Maybe it's just me... but posting lists from Europe as an argument tool just doesn't seem right when you guys play in America(If i'm correct).

Most of the time i look at those lists and wonder how anyone in their right mind could win with such bad cards. Unstable Mutation belongs in Mono U Aggro, not Merfolk.

I understand your point but it needs some clearification. Applying that Europe has worse decks than America is wrong. We have however a different meta game, yes. Also, that Unstable Mutation list was from 2007, before Cursecatcher/Mutavault/Wake Thrasher. I don't find it that strange of a list.


How does a Mono U Aggro list looks like?

[Finn]

Report:

Ahem, Cunning Wish has NOT been what I had hoped. Interestingly, casting it has not been a problem. I pitch it to FoW at times, as you might expect. And I hold it, looking for a suitable target. But the options in blue instants SUUUUUUCK. There have been times when I look at the options and just get my 4th Stifle.

I feel that the only solution is to try to fit 2 Wipe Away and 2 Relics in the main. But I will certainly not be playing with the 3x Wasteland that srsbsns is. I would sooner play 61 cards.

[kilukru]

I started testing this deck and 1 card that was pretty good for me as a sideboard option was Annul.

I must admit I have seen a lot of dreadstill, landstill and suiblack (E-plague). But the card take care of a lot of troublesome card for U.

Maybe a 2-3 inclusion in sideboard.

[Piceli89]

I feel that the only solution is to try to fit 2 Wipe Away and 2 Relics in the main. But I will certainly not be playing with the 3x Wasteland that srsbsns is. I would sooner play 61 cards.

But Finn, how can this deck support 2 wipe away when we have already 3cc drops ( 4 reejereys for sure and 2-3 thrashers depending on personal choices) ? 8-9 3cc drops become too heavy to be supported, imo. Not to count that having such an elevate number of "expensive" cards ( in mana terms ofc) may prevent us from wastelanding opponent's lands , or, on the contrary, may throw us in mana screw if we have wastelanded and we draw the cards above.

@kilukru: great proposal, i already saw annul and always liked the card, but i really don't know what i could cut for that card, my bad... but annul would be useful against :
-enchantress
-dreadnought
- mm..stompy/stax decks ? i don't think.. if chalice lands- and it lands always @1 for first- annul is pretty a dead card. Perhaps here, echoing truth is >>. Perhaps i'm thinking that Etruth is more versatile in all the situations... mm got to think about it.

[Finn]

Piceli, I look at it this way - if there is a permanent we NEED to be rid of, it is probably a game breaker. I don't want an Jitte counters or Counterbalance shenanigans preventing me from removing it.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Piceli, I look at it this way - if there is a permanent we NEED to be rid of, it is probably a game breaker. I don't want an Jitte counters or Counterbalance shenanigans preventing me from removing it.

The only problem is that Echoing Truth's ability to remove all copies makes it so much better. I know that when I used to run 2 maindeck I would always have situations where I would EOT bounce double goyf, my turn Standstill. The same applies for pesky enchantments like Ghostly Prison, or even Warrens goblin tokens. Wipe away is good, but generally against decks with Counterbalance we have a Vial out or a LoA and can Islandwalk them.

[ssilver]

Hey guys, just wanted to check in, see how the decks rolling, see if anyone has any ideas for SB against RGW Zoo? The deck has been giving me a truckload of problems for quite a while now. I am only running 2x chill in my sb, and even with more I just don't see how to beat them. The main problems are Wild Nacatl and Goyf, who isn't too much of a problem, but still swings for 2 most of the time. They have burn for your lords, green creatures to get past chill, and Stp. Normally this deck might not have a chance, but I have run into this deck a crapload of times at magic-league, and even got scrubbed in the trial by this deck. Thats not even the end of my problems, as someone plays it IRL in my local Legacy tournament! Ridiculous!

[Phoenix Ignition]

Zoo

Yikes. This is probably our worst matchup actually, as most of their creatures can chump yours or outright kill them, and they don't have islands for us to unblockable kill them. I would suggest running 3 Jittes in your sideboard, and probably Echoing Truth over Kira (good to set up a Standstill). I might actually go more heavily into mana denial if you can tune your deck towards it (Tidal Warrior, a couple ports, 4th Stifle) just to keep them off 2/3 Apes or 3/3 Nacatyl.

T is for Tool, thank you for deleting all that shit.

[Finn]

I would say that Zoo is about as bad as it gets.

Phoenix, you make a decent point. Sure, Truth has its benefits. Frankly, I like Repeal even more at times. It is going to be a judgment call no matter what with the environment so varied.

I am seriously going to be testing a 61 card list. It seems the least painful way to go.

[rufus]

Yikes. This is probably our worst matchup actually, as most of their creatures can chump yours or outright kill them, and they don't have islands for us to unblockable kill them. I would suggest running 3 Jittes in your sideboard, and probably Echoing Truth over Kira (good to set up a Standstill). I might actually go more heavily into mana denial if you can tune your deck towards it (Tidal Warrior, a couple ports, 4th Stifle) just to keep them off 2/3 Apes or 3/3 Nacatyl.

Phyrexian Dreadnought seems like it would be good.

[elof]

I would say that Zoo is about as bad as it gets.

Phoenix, you make a decent point. Sure, Truth has its benefits. Frankly, I like Repeal even more at times. It is going to be a judgment call no matter what with the environment so varied.

I am seriously going to be testing a 61 card list. It seems the least painful way to go.

The big downside with Repeal is that it can't bounce Tombstalker and have a hard time with Humility/Moat etc.