What do you fella's think about Karmic Justice in the board?
Things it answers:
Trygon Predator
Armageddons (Rare mirror match)
Sinkhole
Wasteland
Pernicious Deed
Krosan Grip
Seal of Cleansing/Primordium
Engineered Explosives
Other bullshit.
It answers some of these better than others, but maybe it's worth a shot. This could reasonably come in against Landstill, Eva Green, Dreadstill, decks with Wasteland or whatever. I'm wondering how much better it can make bad matchups.
Last edited by Patrick; 02-24-2009 at 10:48 AM. Reason: Karmic Justice clearly says Noncreature.
"Michael opens with Lotus Petal, Academy Ruins, Phyrexian Dreadnaught, and Stifle. I Force of Will the Stifle, but he has Force of Will backup. I Ponder on turn one and again on turn two, but fail to find a Swords to Plowshares before he has smashed me twice. " That's losing to Mike Sanchirico.
Team Bad Guys.
I had been thinking about it as well. I really still need work on my SB. I currently have:
4x Choke
4x Krosan Grip
4x Pithing Needle
3x Powder Keg
I don't know though. Keg is so slow, but gives us another out against combo tokens and other smaller nonsense. Also good against Dreadstill or Landstill. Needle is also good, just don't know if Karmic would be a good replacement. I think Choke and Grip are staying for sure. Bah! I say they give us 20 card sideboards!
![f|i[p]'s Avatar](image.php?u=1207&dateline=1151478899 "f|i[p]'s Avatar")
@karmic justice
I own a set and never really got to use it, it was very defensive and would usually get disenchanted or gripped first before they deed or whatever. On game 2, where you would usually board this in, players would actually bring in disenchant effects just to break stax down. It never really caught much attention as I assume its because it never really helped our bad matchups as much as we would like it to.
@scrow
I don't think you would need karmic justice if you have K.grips in the board. The only real time I would use Karmic justice was to buy me time against Deed based decks. It was good against anything that destoys prermanents but I specifically brought those in for Deed effects. But since you have K.grips for deed, this should really help you enough.
I actually like EE better than keg simply because they can get through counter balance, but if there were tons of g.teeg, Id go for kegs.
Who (if any) has played with a 62 card list as a norm.?
Ive tried cutting a city of traitors so I can run a 4th oblivion ring main, and sometimes I am missing that 26th land. I may kick the 4th ring to the board, but it is such an "answer all" card I love seeing it in my hand early in case things get out of hand.
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
Karmic justice has been discussed before.
In case no one wants to flip back a number of pages or search it up, the side of the argument that I remember and agree with is that for the most part trying to stop your stuff from being blown up is a better approach than making sure everything gets blown up.
As far as I am concerned an answer stops a specific threat and karmic justice is not actually an answer, it just makes destroying things more costly. Here is the kicker though: it is quite difficult to set up again after having your board wiped and regardless of your opponent's end, you are probably going to have a harder time recovering because you don't run draw and you weren't the one pulling the trigger on a deed either.
Something comes to mind that I remember some pro guy writing somewhere and it is aggro decks always draw aggro and control decks need to draw answers. That expression is polarized even more with stax because you will need to draw specific pieces all over again to try and combat a rock deck's beat or whatever.
Seriously though. Many of these questions being asked have been discussed in detail. If you don't want to sift through all the pages, you can always use the advanced search function.
Last edited by Mordel; 02-24-2009 at 05:42 PM.
-It could be about four of anything and I would agree.Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
I played it for a rather long while, then dropped it for more proactive solutions (Defense Grid, Suppression Field / Pithing Needle).
The problem with the card is that you're not really interested in free Vindicates or even Armageddons: if you get to kill their Tarmogoyf as they destroy your Chalice of the Void, it's still a great deal for them. They play a new creature, which was probably dead in hand due to Prisons or the Chalice itself, and they're back to square one (aka the Maindeck Oblivion Ring Problem). Destroying lands with it is even more unreliable since pretty much every possible target is much better than a Stone Rain.
You're putting a price on their spells, but the price they pay is likely less painful than if you had just played another disruptive permanent in Karmic Justice's stead.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
I have a hard time with enchantress/aggro loam. I havent seen a decklist in the last few pages so here's the one i'm playing with.
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
2 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [REW] Wasteland
7 [LRW] Plains (1)
1 [NE] Kor Haven
// Creatures
4 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle
3 [ON] Exalted Angel
// Spells
3 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [US] Smokestack
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [JGC] Armageddon
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [P3] Ravages of War
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [9E] Defense Grid
SB: 3 [RAV] Suppression Field
SB: 3 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 3 [FNM] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [LG] Moat
Moats are something new i've been trying as i've freed up a few proxy slots. I havent had much of a chance to test them but i'm hoping they will be good against loam's big creatures. Supression Field is good but doesnt seem to be enough to give me an edge in this matchup.
I added 1 ravages of war for 1 oblivion ring... maybe the 4th ring needs a spot in the board. I often found myself wishing that (random card) was an armageddon.
Aura of Silence in the board are for enchantress which destroyed me in the top 4 last tournament. These are replacing powder kegs. I didn't find myself siding these in that often.
I cut my 4th crucible of worlds for an exalted angel. There is a lot of storm combo in my meta so it is nice to kill them quickly after stalling with a trinisphere, chalice, rule of law, etc. I'm still not sure about this one.
I've played with a lot of random 1 of lands including Dust Bowl, Horizon Canopy, and Gods' Eye. I'm liking Kor Haven at this point. Its ability to answer Dreadnought is important as Dreadstill is another deck that places frequenly in my meata. It came in for a factory because i upped my threat count with another angel.
I traded 1 City of Traitors for a plains because i included some WW casting cost cards in the sideboard and do not want to see 2 in my opening hand. It is also nice to ramp smokestack to 2 and be able to hold it for an additional turn.
These above changes were made following a 4th place finish, losing to Dreadstill and Prison enchantress in the top 4. The rest of the meta includes Aggro Loam (i lost) Storm combo (i won!), and random aggro decks.
I've tested some of my changes extensively, others are more recent.
Any critiques?
I struggle a lot with Dreadstill too. However, I splashed green in my list so I could add Krosan Grip and Choke in the SB which win the game against decks like that. Grip is excellent in that it takes out their Dreadnought straight through counter backup.
I have never experimented with a green splash. I consider the Dreadstill matchup to be 50/50 at worst though i devote a lot of sideboard slots to it (Defense Grid, Trini, Supression Field) The deck i fear the most is enchantress it got 1st place last time and Sigil of the Empty Throne should replace his alternate win condition (opalescence) which is WAY meaner. I hope he doesnt show up. The combination of quick development of mana, combined with a lot of card advantage and a ton of permanents makes this deck a tough customer.
Anybody have any insight on the Enchantress matchup?
Well there is Rule of Law that slows their "combo" plan. Or Sphere of Resistance slows them down a lot too.
I like the idea of a green splash. It would give extra life to Horizon Canopy, and would be an excuse for me to finally test that new K. Grip-wannabe that draws you a card. I might try it.
What would the mana base look like?
Would we have to cut some of the staple colorless lands?
I am intrigued.
feefox: each card in hand!!!!
ridicolous
only fortune
This is my current manabase (plus Moxen)
3x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Plains
3x Flagstones of Trokair
3x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
2x Savannah
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Kor Haven
Flagstones can fetch the Savannahs as well.
@Dirtyoldguy366
I don't have much insights vs enchantress, I just know that its a really bad match up. I know they run more permanents than we do.. If your really afraid of enchantress. Try running a dedicated sideboard for them, Maybe tempest of light or something of the likes.
aggro loam is the same way, a bad matchup, dont know what to board for them, maybe s.fields, needles, chalice @ 2 that hits burning wish, loam,DD. but it will not change the fact that they would bring K. grips, and artifact hate against you as well. A quick lock might help alot to be able to lock them down.Graveyard hate might help as well...
So I keep getting rolled by Faerie Stompy now. I boarded in Chokes and Grips (for Jitte and whatnot). He just dropped a Glen Elendra and beat me down. I gripped his Jitte and he played another. He dropped SoFI also. I couldn't drop geddon, cause he had blue mana for Glen Elendra... Thoughts?
Faerie Stompy doesn't suffer from Trinisphere or Chalices, in fact, they run these themselves. All Tomb-based aggro are pretty hard this way, but Faerie Stompy is harder than Dragon Stompy (which has Moon effects). Faeries Stompy has Back to Basics, they also have counter back-up. They use Trinket Mage to get a Relic of Progenitus to kill your graveyard or they get an Engineered Explosives@0 and kill your Moxen (and their own, but sometimes they don't really care about that).
Basically: this match is a very tough match-up for Armageddon Stax. I'm not really sure what works against them. I've tried Oblivion Rings, they are nice, but often not enough. Humility is pretty cool, but it has bad synergy with your Maguses and Angels if you run them. Most important thing is, Chalices and Trinispheres are dead cards. These will simply have to go. Your Moxen are also less attractive to play. If you pack Powder Kegs in your sideboard, run them, it could kill their Moxen and Seat of the Synod if they run them. Also pretty nice @3: kills most creatures and the equipment. If you have Wrath of God in your sideboard, get them.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
I've been thinking something along the lines of Tempest of Light also. I've been testing Aura of Silence and it just acts like a speedbump to them just like trinisphere and chalice and they usually oblivion ring/seal it before you can use it against their kill cards. Mass enchantment removal is probably the way to go here. I'm really hoping that guy doesnt show up or brings something janky but i might devote a few sideboard slots to it just in case.
As for loam what kind of graveyard hate can we use that is good against them? I know this player has a tendency to board in chalice and set them to 0 game 2 to avoid Tormod's Crypt. Hits my moxen too but i often board them out - this might be the wrong call though if we're going for a fast lock. What other graveyard hate is worth playing against them. Morningtide? Wheel of Sun and Moon?
Againt Enchantress I find Aura of Silence, Oblivion Ring and Humility very effective. Go after their Enchatress effects.
Against Aggro Loam I find Chalice@2 very effective. It stops their engine, their goyfs, Dark Confidant. Humility and/or Moat are also pretty cool.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
For a good surprise factor, morning tide would be great, since most people would assume your running crypt or relic. But you also must remember that they can cycle in response to your casting of morning tide.. You just have to time it right. Chalice @ 2 is still one of the best answers.
Im playing a weird version of loam now, and I have noticed that even a trinisphere would hurt simply because you always have to cast loam and constantly cylcle, making it quite taxing for their mana base. But it doesn't change the fact that they have gigantic creatures that could easily kill magus, and a well diverse wish board...
Im trying to keep my list mono white, the green splash seems tempting, but aside from buying duals, the mild weakening of our manabase for no maindeck cards seem a little off to me. This is my board, which I would love opinions on since it seems shitty when I look at it:
4 Exalted Angel
1 Ghostly Prison(3 Main)
1 Oblivion Ring(3 main)
1 Rule of Law(good against dreadstill if noone had noticed)
2 Defense Grid( questionable? this has sealed me up games against control)
3 Aura of Silence (meh, its good, against the mirror, but.. who plays that?)
3 Runed Halo
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
I personally don't play Angels. As for Rule of Law, it's good against Dreadstill and Storm, but only 1? Seems random. Aura of Silence I also like, but the double white can be tough to pull fast enough to matter. Same issue with Runed Halo.Im trying to keep my list mono white, the green splash seems tempting, but aside from buying duals, the mild weakening of our manabase for no maindeck cards seem a little off to me. This is my board, which I would love opinions on since it seems shitty when I look at it:
4 Exalted Angel
1 Ghostly Prison(3 Main)
1 Oblivion Ring(3 main)
1 Rule of Law(good against dreadstill if noone had noticed
2 Defense Grid( questionable? this has sealed me up games against control)
3 Aura of Silence (meh, its good, against the mirror, but.. who plays that?)
3 Runed Halo
As for the green splash, I don't see that it really weakens the manabase. I mean, we swap white sources for green/white duals, so we don't lose anything in terms of white mana. And if you mean Wasteland, I think the Tombs and Cities are better Wasteland targets anyway. I think Choke is too good to not run, and Krosan Grip is great against a lot of decks. From Dreadnought to EE or Deed, and hitting equipment, etc. I love the card and think it's too versatile not to play. I just put in 2 Temple Garden until I can pick up Savannah. Flagstones puts it into play tapped anyway.
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