[Deck] Solidarity

[cjva]

Van Phanel: I play against black decks packing discard very often and have found Divert to be a useful card. Against thoughtsize, cabal therapy and against hymn. Rarely play against goblins packing discard thought, so i don't know if this is the solution on the fast clock + discard strategy they run. But i my world it is a very good strategy against the discard element.

[Van Phanel]

Divert helps against several problems but certainly not against Goblins packing discard. A goblin player who plays discard before turn 3 is stupid (most of the time; of course there are exceptions). Taking a card from our opening hand still gives us three turns to find a replacement and that should be absolutely possible. If they wait until turn 3 or 4 when our hand is nearly ready to combo out, taking a vital combopart away (more often than not a Tide) can be crucial.

The problem with Divert is that it doesn't deal with Duress or early cantrips against combo. Against Burn, Disrupt is better as well (unless they play around it, but then you should have enough time to win anyway). And of course there's Dredge where Disrupt + Remand + FoW (+ Truth) can steal some games while Divert isn't able to stop Careful Study or Breakthrough. Summed up, Disrupt is the more flexible card, but in a meta with lots of decks packing Thoughtseize, Hymn, Sinkhole and/or Vindicate I can see Divert being viable.

- Van

[cjva]

Van Phanel: I agree with you. It took very long time for me to switch disrupt for divert in my board, and if I'm going to an unknown meta i will surely put disrupt in my board instead of divert.

The experience i have with the deck is that if my opponent wait until turn 4 it is most of the time to late for them. Numerous times i just go off and win as a response to their turn 4 hymn/duress/sinkhole.

But the question remains. How to we tackle a fast clock backed up with disruption?

To sum it up: I agree with you, and my choice is very meta-dependent. As a SB always should be.

[GGoober]

I played against Solidarity and I must say this deck is the coolest deck ever. I'm wondering what are the bad matchups for the deck?

I've seen it get raced by Turn 1 Lackey (since it has no answers for that except FOW). How does the deck play against opposing Tendril combo? How does it function against discard? I'm guessing the bad MUs will be opposing Tendril combo and countertop, but I'm not sure whether this deck has a good MU against Thresh. I know it does well against Stax since I was the Stax player and my opponent (Solidarity) went turn 3 EOT Wish for Rebuild and proceed to win from there after bouncing Chalice/3Spheres.

I'm curious to know how the deck does in the meta since I'm considering on getting a set of Resets :)

[cjva]

crz87: Look at the first post in this thread. Takes up very good what the bad MU's are.

I have never had any particular problems with tendrils-combo or belcher. FoW and other control elements gives me the time i need.

My biggest problem has always been discard and CB.Trying to find a way around it. Discard + a fast clock is a big problem.

But read the original post in this thread. Goddie, goddie. And start play solidarity, becouse it is by far the most rewarding deck to play. Its fun, it advanced and you have a answer to everything. takes time to learn, so focus on analysing your games. You will need it.

[KillemallCFH]

I'm guessing the bad MUs will be opposing Tendril combo and countertop

Pretty much. Solidarity originally fell out of favor because of the prevalence of Thresh, specifically CB (although even before CB, Thresh was still a bad matchup, I believe). Also, other, faster, combo decks are generally favored against Solidarity, due to Solidarity's slower clock and somewhat meager protection suite (most Tendrils decks can easily ignore a single FoW/Remand).

However, the biggest issue is that an active CB is pretty hard to win through. Now, it is certainly not impossible. A lot of lists lately have been incorporating things like Cryptic Command to address the CB issue, but no matter what you do, CB will always be problematic for the deck.

[GreenOne]

It's really ages I'm not playing the deck, but from my testing (before AN) the combo matchup was even. FoW alone can't do much, but the mix of FoW, Remand, Disrupt, Spell Snare, Cryptic Command, Twincast and a turn 4/5 clock is nothing to sneeze at.

[Bahamuth]

It's really ages I'm not playing the deck, but from my testing (before AN) the combo matchup was even. FoW alone can't do much, but the mix of FoW, Remand, Disrupt, Spell Snare, Cryptic Command, Twincast and a turn 4/5 clock is nothing to sneeze at.

Exactly. Many people seem to belive Solidarity loses to faster combo, but it certainly doesn't. I'm quite sure I am about even to both TES and ANT, and I'm favoured against DDFT (which is just because they use Doomsday to win). Twincast is absolutely huge against fast combo.

Thresh pre-CB was a bad matchup because of the Meddling Mages they played. Since they don't anymore, I'd say I'm about even against versions with no CB, but still pretty unfavoured against Thresh with CB. Goblins is favourable, but not that much, since they are often very fast and have some nasty SB plans. Discard poses a problem too, but the deck is so random you will sometimes win easily and sometimes be chanceless.

[lavafrogg]

Omg...
Just to build suspense I am going to announce that I believe I have solved solidarity's problems. I am testing right now but will post more here shortly!

mods-I know this isn't a real post but I am sooooo excited!

[Jak]

Omg...
Just to build suspense I am going to announce that I believe I have solved solidarity's problems. I am testing right now but will post more here shortly!

mods-I know this isn't a real post but I am sooooo excited!

Didgeridoo isn't an instant.

[Valtrix]

Then I'll make sure not to change channels...For now anyway.

[bowvamp]

Omg...
Just to build suspense I am going to announce that I believe I have solved solidarity's problems. I am testing right now but will post more here shortly!

mods-I know this isn't a real post but I am sooooo excited!

Thanks!
Anyways, if you did find this miracle cure, how's testing been going?
Make sure it isn't anything already in permanent waves!

[lavafrogg]

(This is a progressive post I made on the solidarity boards, much of the people are the same so I will just post it here too.)

I hate this to be a post that I make just because it is such a random idea but,
I was just at a small legacy tournament and I was playing FS (Fetchland Soli) and I was looking through my deck while registering. I accidentally had two decree of justice shuffled into the deck. At first I laughed but after second thought I swapped out two cards main for the decrees.

I have been experimenting with all kinds of alternate win cons in the deck and this just seemed crazy enough to work.

It was a horrible success! The card did everything I wanted it to do! It was perfect! I am now rushing off to play test the deck and find the right numbers but I really think I found something!

For example:
1. At eot I drew a card( not broken I know but does EtW draw cards?)
2. On turn four eot I made nine 1/1 solders! I then remanded/orims chanted answers while turning sideways ftw!
3. I hard cast the decree for four angels! when my resets were extirpated(go go turnabout!)

I mean I have played a lot of solidarity and this was the single most fun I have ever had! I also run 4 chants 3 grips but the decrees are the biggest find for me!

Oh and one more thing I also run think twice over peer because the deck needs card advantage!
I will post a list here as soon as I get one it should be soon!


Ok here is the first list!

4 high tide
3 turnabout
3 meditate
2 cunning wish
4 opt
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
2 flash of insight
4 reset
3 impulse
3 remand
1 brain freeze
2 decree of justice
3 think twice

1 tropical island
2 tundra
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
9 island

side
1 stroke of genius
1 brain freeze
1 meditate
1 twincast
1 turnabout
1 rebuild
3 krosan grip
1 echoing truth
4 orim's chant
1 chain of vapor

Once again here is a list of pros and cons:
Pros:
1. you can now attack for the win
2. no storm count needed
3. choice of leaving creature kill in
4. can be used in combo(not mana efficient but hey)
5. Can be hard cast main phase to get around counterbalance
6. Cant be countered (except stifle)

Cons:
1. Still need abundance of mana
2. Makes creature kill useful.
3. not efficient during combo
4. Opens us up for more non basic land hate.

Well that's all I can say now, I look forward for your input!

Final Edit:
Some deck choices are strange- the think twice are to make up for the card disadvantage force of will gives you and really helps against discard.

I really want the fourth remand due to its time walking and storm doubling ability.

No peer through the depths due to the reveal and the lack of land fetching.

Finally, the orim's chants are for fast combo and thresh and the grips are there for counterbalance and general utility.

[Bahamuth]

I'm not convinced. I've been testing Hunting Pack in the past, and I don't really see why Decree would be much better than that card. Opening yourself up to EE and Deed is certainly not a good idea in my opinion. Your pro's list with my comments:

Pros:
1. you can now attack for the win
I don't see how this is an advantage?

2. no storm count needed
Sure, but this deck hardly ever struggles to reach a high enough storm count. The problems lie elsewhere.

3. choice of leaving creature kill in
Woohoo? If you're able to kill creatures with a cycled Decree, you'll probably be able to win as well.

4. can be used in combo(not mana efficient but hey)
It's certainly not better than Cryptic Command here.

5. Can be hard cast main phase to get around counterbalance
Which would cost at least 6 mana, 7 to get around Daze. You'd have to resolve a Turnabout as well, since you only play one Tundra.

6. Cant be countered (except stifle)
Same as for every other kill we use.

Cons:
2. Makes creature kill useful.
Really an important point. Our goal is to minimize the amount of answers the opponent has for us. You're practially giving the opponent cardadvantage by playing this card.

4. Opens us up for more non basic land hate.
Same holds true as with point 2.

Do you already have some decent test results against CB Thresh?

[TimeTwister]

Ahoi,

but at the other hand it makes the boarding against solidarity hard for the opponents.
Because they can't just board out Wrath, EE, etc. for other disruption!

I like the Idea, but I would rather go for 2x Tundra and no Tropical, because krosan grip has the same effect as wipe away!


regards
TimeTwister

[deadlock]

Sorry for the delay, i first want to talk about Hydroblast and the Goblin matchup.
I haven't played High Tide for some time, so my information might be a bit outdated.
The idea behind (atleast) 2 Hydroblast was, that this deck can still lose to a first turn Lackey, so i wanted more answers to it.
To adress Chalice of the Void we already have plenty of bounce / Remand.
Discard can be dealt with Twincast and Disrupt, which both handle the combo matchup aswell.

Concerning the white splash, i agree with Bahamuth here. Another killcondition is not what we are looking for. I i would ever splash a colour it would be either green (prefered) for Krosan Grip or red for Pyroblast.

I like the Idea, but I would rather go for 2x Tundra and no Tropical, because krosan grip has the same effect as wipe away!

Not quite, CB creatly diminishes the possibilitys to shape a suitable hand. Simplified, with Wipe Away you asume to have the 'go-off' hand already and just need to bounce their CB.

[lavafrogg]

Bahamuth: So... if the deck rarely struggles to get a high enough storm count then the deck should be rarely losing... opening yourself up to ee and deed means that they cannot take these cards out and board in more pain.

I agree with you but the matchups that the deck loses horribly are when the storm count cannot be jacked up. In this case I like the option of vommiting tokens onto the tabke at instant speed.

Decree is very similar to hunting pack except that it is easier to cast and can be hardcast or just cycled with available mana. A huge problem with hunting pack was the double green requirement, decree is only a single white mana.

Deadlock: I am splashing white and green, the white brings chants out of the board to help against counters/combo and the green is for grips.

[TheyCallMeTim]

I'd like to see a build with more of a focus on Twincast and Stroke of Genius in a the main board, their synergy is ridiculous. Build up your mana engine, cast Stroke targeting opponent and leave it on the stack as a Twincast target to be used for your own benefit.

4 Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
2 Stroke
3 Twincast
1 Flash of Insight
1 Brainfreeze
2 Remand
3 Cunning Wish
4 FOW
18 Land

SB:
1 Stroke
1 Meditate
1 Brainfreeze
1 Flash of Insight
1 Turnabout
10 Meta

Any thoughts on this? How 'bout my super-secret tech: Tolarian Winds? Does it deserve a mainboard position? I really support seeing this become a competitor again.

[Bahamuth]

The fact that opponents are forced to keep their hate in the mainboard isn't a good argument at all. In whatever case the open slots in his deck would be filled with hate in your version, those slots would've either been filled with hate completely, or not completely in the original version. In the first case it would indeed barely matter, but in the second case it would, since the opponent then still has more hate agains you than against me. I doubt many decks will have trouble boarding cards out for more hate, so the second case seems much more likely.

The problem with Hunting Pack requiring GG wasn't that big at all, since the card needed storm anyway. Just as with Decree, you are probably forced to cast an untapper first anyway (or you cast a Decree for like 2 tokens, woohoo). The problems were rather Wasteland and Moon vulnerability, and not drawing into the Pack in time, which will happen to the Decree version just as much.

Don't play Stroke mainboard. The card is way too mana intensive to be used in many occasions. Also, Tolarian Winds is no good, it gives carddisadvantage, and therefore is probably always bad pre-combo.

[TheyCallMeTim]

"Don't play Stroke mainboard. The card is way too mana intensive to be used in many occasions. Also, Tolarian Winds is no good, it gives carddisadvantage, and therefore is probably always bad pre-combo."

Tolarian Winds is the perfect anti-stall. Ditch all those Islands and FOW for some fresh spells, works pre-combo too when you keep a hand you probably shouldn't have or mulliganed too much. Right now, I use it as a Wish target in the SB. Ditch those discarded spells to feed a big FOI, and even Wish 'em back if necessary. Stroke isn't mana intensive when combined with Twincast "pay X2UUU draw 2X cards"!! Add in the ability to change targets and it's almost broken. However, I understand the points you've made. Whatever the case may be making these changes keeps the same mechanics that Solidarity is supposed to have but changes the flavor a little bit. I think it plays nicely as a huge drawing engine (reminds me of the good old days piloting ProsBloom). Try it out and tweak a deck list before you disregard the idea completely. If the deck ever makes a comeback, it certainly won't be the same old thing. The new version were looking for is gonna be significantly different. Look at what adding black did for goblins and belcher....