[Deck] Merfolk

[Nekrataal]

Fun fact, I decieded last night to switch -1 Relic (going down to 2) for +1 Jitte (trying it out). This was before I read Forbiddians posts.

Regarding Jitte, I feel as I would like to try it out more, it is probebly better than the 3ed Relic since there seem to be more "creature decks" than "graveyard decks" in sweden atm. (However, somehow, the "graveyard decks" seems to be winning more than "creature decks", oh, I can't understand why... :P)
Having just 1 Jitte main (and 1 more in board) does give me the advantages that Forbiddian mentioned, but also the benefit of not risking to draw more than 1. The downside of course is that I will draw it more seldom against matchups where I want it but since I had none before it can't be all that much of a differance anyway.

However, I will consider it to have a CC of 4. Seldom will I try (if there are other options) to drop i early, forbiddians mention of it as a mid/late game card is the way I want to play it. By mid/late game, the number of removals your opponent has is limited and it will be easyier for a lone creature to push through. And regardless, any creature I have with a Jitte is a huge threat, makeing Cursecatchers more effectful in the late game (where they are usually dead).

Anyway, I will try it out and let you guys know how I feel about it...

Although Jitte seems great against Swarm or Creature Aggro on paper (not only for removal or pumping but also for eventually gain some life to nullify direct burn) I am not convinced that there often is a lategame against those matchups. However I am really interested in any results regarding it.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

There's an equipment that's much better (although technically it doesn't exist in this format), but I wholeheartedly agree with this statement.

Well, yeah. But not counting Skullclamp. That would be the shit in this deck though if it were legal, eh?

[Finn]

@Forbiddian, I am growing tired of your insults. I have refrained from using them myself and I expect the same in return. Apparently, I begged. I'm childish, and I'm grossly ignorant amongst other flaws. Keep that crap out of here. I don't want to waste my time reading it and responding to it.

Frankly, I am tired of the conversation with you anyway, seeing as how you have simply been gainsaying me without actually coming up with any alternative ideas. Argument for argument's sake is a hindrance, not a contribution.

@whosyourdaddy, I have been using Jitte in my board for a few weeks. In perhaps 4 or 5 uses, I have never been unhappy with its performance. The only issue I have ever encountered was against Goblins when I was unable to manage the mana to play/equip on the same turn and he took it out with a Tin Street that he Matron'd up. I bet that sort of thing will happen a lot.

Honestly, we really need to focus a bit on the Goblins matchup. I am using Chill and Jitte as my primary tools - both in the board, but it has not been enough to make this favorable.

[Nekrataal]

@Forbiddian, I am growing tired of your insults. I have refrained from using them myself and I expect the same in return. Apparently, I begged. I'm childish, and I'm grossly ignorant amongst other flaws. Keep that crap out of here. I don't want to waste my time reading it and responding to it.

Frankly, I am tired of the conversation with you anyway, seeing as how you have simply been gainsaying me without actually coming up with any alternative ideas. Argument for argument's sake is a hindrance, not a contribution.

@whosyourdaddy, I have been using Jitte in my board for a few weeks. In perhaps 4 or 5 uses, I have never been unhappy with its performance. The only issue I have ever encountered was against Goblins when I was unable to manage the mana to play/equip on the same turn and he took it out with a Tin Street that he Matron'd up. I bet that sort of thing will happen a lot.

Honestly, we really need to focus a bit on the Goblins matchup. I am using Chill and Jitte as my primary tools - both in the board, but it has not been enough to make this favorable.

Hooligan has seen less play the last month from my impression, amybe to the decline of Stax and Stompy based decks although I always like them main (when not playing Merfolks). R/W Aggro variants play them as well and of course there is Needle or Grip to answer Jitte Game 2 if you play it main.

[thefreakaccident]

What's the most ideal list for this deck?

I was thinking something amongst the lines of (for a heavy creature based meta):

lands//20
4 mutavault
4 tundra
1 plains
4 flooded strand
7 island

spells//22
4 swords to plowshares
4 standstill
4 daze
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
2 repeal

creatures//18
4 lord of atlantis
4 rejeery to the face!
4 curse catcher
4 silvergail adept
2 sygg, river guide


IDK how powerful it is, but it seems decent against threshold and possibly goblins.

[Forbiddian]

@Forbiddian, I am growing tired of your insults. I have refrained from using them myself and I expect the same in return. Apparently, I begged. I'm childish, and I'm grossly ignorant amongst other flaws. Keep that crap out of here. I don't want to waste my time reading it and responding to it.

Frankly, I am tired of the conversation with you anyway, seeing as how you have simply been gainsaying me without actually coming up with any alternative ideas. Argument for argument's sake is a hindrance, not a contribution.

Wow, uh, epic fail?

Every post you make, you bitch about how I don't have a suggestion. Yet I have a suggestion: 60 cards. I've stated this over and over, I don't get how you don't see that 60 cards is a solution to your problem of 61 cards.

So Forbiddian, you still don't have any input except "fix it" to add? We are still waiting for your solution.

It is sad, really, that I have tried over and over to bend the efforts of others in here to help find the solution. And what I get instead are fingers pointed at me. No bother. On to the point then. Forbiddian, I salute you sir, for you have outed me....

I came up with a way to solve your maindeck problem: 60 cards. I also told you exactly which card I'd cut, and I've stated it numerous times. But whatever, I'll just move on to the other flaws of your argument: The root of why you think 61 cards isn't the Hurricane Katrina that it is:

Your argument for Wipe Away seems to be, "There are cards that wreck us. Wipe Away can answer those cards. Therefore, Wipe Away is good." Although a lot of permanents hurt us a lot (Moat, Abyss, Deed, Circle of Protection: Blue, Sphere of Reason, Merfolk Assassin, Llawan, Cephalid Empress, Circle of Solace), you need to take into account the probability of seeing those cards and also how much help Wipe Away will be.

Wipe Away is often a -1. Worse, it's -1 in most of the common and difficult matches that I'm most concerned about. Merfolk clearly has problems (not 100% win ratio) and permanents are definitely a problem, but Wipe Away is 1) not a great answer to Permanents, although usually good enough, its suckage shows through sometimes and 2) dead in a large number of MUs when we don't have any deck filtration (Other than Forcing with Wipe Away).

If your answer is a perennially dead card like Wipe Away, you might have been asking the wrong question.

Here's a better framework for the problem: Which cards are effective against our deck AND common? Which cards would effectively help out against those decks and not be dead weight at other times? For instance, Relic of Progenitus is amazing. It fucks up Goyf and Goose, kills Terravore outright, stops Loam, hurts Ichorid, and cycles in midgame topdeck confrontations. The situations it's used are very scary and some are nearly impossible to win without some dominant outlier (same as Wipe Away), but Relic is applicable in a wide number of matchups and cycles when it's useless.

Wipe Away is pretty good against a small number of critically strong permanents. Seems like board material to me.

Here's how I see the "required" slots of Mono-U Merfolk or the consensus cards that most people seem to run:

//Creatures
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Wakethrasher

//Instants
4 Force of Will
3 Daze

//Other Permanants
3 Standstill
3 Aether Vial

//Lands
12 Islands
3 Wasteland
3 Mutavault

There's plenty of room left in the maindeck to address the problems you want to address with the skeleton. But you have to prioritize. Running dead cards without Brainstorm: usually not a great idea. If you want to beat EVERYTHING and lose sense of their relative importance, you start wanting to run 80 cards and you have a huge slew of other problems.

By fixing a minor problem (the fact that you're going to lose to a Moat, and a number of other permanents), you might create a much bigger problem. Look at the cards that you're removing (and remember that if you put in a card without removing a card, then you lose at logic).

With few exceptions the maindeck is cards that are broadly applicable and the board addresses specific problems.

[DeeJus]

The arguments are getting repetitive, the people: immature. So to end this, let me post the list I have been trying out lately in preparation for Chicago.
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
12 [UNH] Island
4 [MOR] Mutavault
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Cursecatcher
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
4 [TSB] Lord of Atlantis
2 [EVE] Wake Thrasher
3 [MOR] Grimoire Thief

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [DS] Echoing Truth

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [OD] Divert
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 3 [TE] Chill
SB: 2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice

Maindeck
Some of the unorthodox choices I have made are Grimoire Thief and Echoing Truth.

ET allows me to win against a Empty the Warrens or Dredge going off, whereas Thief insures the win against ANT and other control decks, while still beating face.

I the sideboard, SoFI comes in against Goblins whereas Wipe Away comes in against problem permanents such as Moat, etc.

[Forbiddian]

I maindeck Echoing Truth to beat off Empty the Warrens lolkk

If you're going to interrupt a debate with a silly decklist and a bad insult, make sure that the discussion isn't fail in 3 sentences.

Why are you running Grimoire Thief? You really expect that much, uh... Ad Nauseum? You said it was unorthodox, but you only talk about Echoing Truth (which is pretty standard, but your description of why you like it was not).


Also, do you board 9 cards in against Goblins? And you still have dedicated Goblin hate in Chill/SoFI? Uh.... Well, good luck in Chicago. Order a pizza there, they kick ass.

[elof]

@Dee list:
I think that if your going to play 7 UU drops, you should at least have 13 islands. I suggest cutting a Mutavault for the 13th Island. Also, I'm not convinced about Thief but if you like it, go for it.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Maybe everyone can just get the fuck over the whole "61 card, 60 card debate" now. Seriously, it's getting so redundant and unenlightening, my eyes are practically bleeding.

In other news, I've been doing a bunch of testing on MWS.... A couple interesting things I've noticed: So far, Goblins is nowhere near as hard as I thought it would be... One the other hand, Enchantress (Solitaire) was pretty brutal, I ended up getting killed by Pegasi while holding Rushing River (would have won if it were Echoing Truth...

So, has anyone else been testing, or is this just an "insult forum" these days?

[whosyourdaddy]

In other news, I've been doing a bunch of testing on MWS.... A couple interesting things I've noticed: So far, Goblins is nowhere near as hard as I thought it would be...

Sooo glad to hear that;)

One the other hand, Enchantress (Solitaire) was pretty brutal, I ended up getting killed by Pegasi while holding Rushing River (would have won if it were Echoing Truth...

Well, I haven't tested ET in Merfolk(just because I havent got to play the deck yet;p), but I used to play it in my madness deck and it was pretty amazing. Maybe it's just because I mostly played it against two of my friends(one of them running Empty the Warrens and the second - Ichorid);D After all, it did just well in all the matchups with "oh, did I just kill your 20 creatures with a single blue instant??" being a nice bonus. I'm pretty sure I'm going to squeeze two of them into Merfolks MD.

[kilukru]

Played around 10 game against enchentress, I went 6-6 (4 matchs 2-1,1-2,1-2, 2-1). 3 of the win came from an ET folowed by a decisive swing, 2 win came from manasscrewing my oponent, the last one was just a random win. But most of these victory gave me the feeling that i was lucksacking my way to victory so I really dont know what to make of that MU. But with 2 ET main and the ability to board 2 more + the mana denial (including BTB) you got a shot. G1 is much harder to win.

I dont feel we need to bring anything more for the MU, play this one as you hand permit you, super agression can work, mana denial definitly work, and standart aggro-control way also work.

[Piceli89]

@DDK: I've tested many times against goblins, and, with our current list, it's pretty hard to win the first game. If piledriver lands, it will stop almost all our threats (well, except mutavaults, but they have both ports and wastelands to take care of 'em). And mogg fanatic is a tiny son of a bitch, the fact that they can vial it in response being able to kill potentially a lord of us is a bastard thing for us.
Goblins is the major reason why i advocate everyone absolutely not to drop their Propaganda in the sideboard. A resolved propaganda against goblin doesn't stand for gg, but at least helps a lot in gaining the time necessary to assembly our own army. Another thing i noticed is that, even if there are a couple of propagandas on the board and the opponent is stalled, he'll try as much as he'll be able to tutor Siege gang commander and begin to shoot as a maniac to our folks. So the advice would be basically not to wait too much time, and perhaps to side in needles if necesary, which actually can cover lots of their major threats ( fanatic, SGC, vial-yes, they abuse it much more than we do-, sometimes kiki-jiki for gobbos' crazy shenanigans). Of course, BEB effects are vital too, especially agaisnt the usual first turn lackey.

Enchantress is another really tough matchup, but the ones who run ET maindeck are a little advantaged about this. Here indeed, despites having played against some enchantress decks- and the majority of cases having lost - i still really don't know which are the "key" enchenatments to counter, but it pretty much depends on the situation- an elephant grass while you'r ready to swing ftw is a must counter, i guess.
However, i think that trying to stop the main parts of their drawing engine (Argothian Enc./Enc.'s presence) in a generic situation where each one is beginning to build its own play is something which shouldn't be that bad. In this way, you slow 'em a lot, and they lose much of their capacity to chain enchantments, ergo finding the ones which hurt an aggro deck, but also winning.
in SB, if enchantress is such an issue, i'd recommend Annull, which should be damnly good. Also, pithing needle on words of war/sacred mesa anyone ?

[Schembo]

Finished in 2nd place yesterday in local store legacy tourney.There were 25 participant's. Tropical island + 6 boosters is always nice cath

List

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Wakethrasher

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle

4 Standstill
2 Echoing Truth
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Aether Vial

12 Islands
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault

SB

3 x B2B
2 x Echoing truth
1 x Wipe Away
2 x Pithing needle
2 x Divert
4 x BEB
1 x Stifle

we played 5 round's swiss without top8 and my record was 4-1. I winned dragon stompy, I.T.F, ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh and mono u stompy and lost to red death.
Top8 looked like this

1. RGB Agro loam
2. Merfolks
3. UGW ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh
4. T.E.S
5. Red death
6. UR Dreadstill
7. UGR ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh
8. WBG Rock

[Nekrataal]

Maybe everyone can just get the fuck over the whole "61 card, 60 card debate" now. Seriously, it's getting so redundant and unenlightening, my eyes are practically bleeding.

In other news, I've been doing a bunch of testing on MWS.... A couple interesting things I've noticed: So far, Goblins is nowhere near as hard as I thought it would be... One the other hand, Enchantress (Solitaire) was pretty brutal, I ended up getting killed by Pegasi while holding Rushing River (would have won if it were Echoing Truth...

So, has anyone else been testing, or is this just an "insult forum" these days?

Enchantress is a bad matchup because almost every cards that they are playing is a must counter especially City of Solitude and Choke. At least 1 of both is usually main so dont let it hit the board (City usually is worse because it shuts down Counters and Activation of Relic and Vial in the opponents turn). Elefant Grass is pretty bad because it slows down a lot. All enchantress effects pretty much suck if they hit the board. I usually try to counter them. Mesa and Words hit the board after confinement, so they are no threat early on. Confinement and Moat of course are the major threats you should spare bounce spell for. Only chance of winning is either screwing them Game 1 if they start with Fetchies (usually just 4 Main) and/or Duals (usually 4 Savannah max) you can stifle/waste or bouncing in the right moment (Grass, Confinement, Moat) and swing for the win. But as has been said before if you can win the first games in a tournament you probably won't ever see Enchantress . It is not a Tier 1 deck.

[landstill101]

As a person who plays enchantress alot and is building merfolk, for chicago, you have better chance at seeing enchantress than goblins and horrible bad news for many people, the lists are running choke mainboard now. So this makes the first game even harder. Enchantress is just a deck that you more or less pray you dont see. Its kin of like enchantress just hoping to never see combo. Just pray.

But if you do run into goblins, my experience is that if you resolve a combination of 2 lords/reejery, its enough for you to win. mainly for the fact that all of your guys will be bigger. Now you will have problem with piledriver. But I have found jitte to really help and I will do what ever it takes to counter the basturd. But for the most part I wouldn't even worry about testing against this deck, it will not be played.

[DeeJus]

This is my updated list for Chicago. any thoughts?

// Lands
12 [UNH] Island
4 [MOR] Mutavault
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Cursecatcher
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
4 [TSB] Lord of Atlantis
2 [EVE] Wake Thrasher

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [DS] Echoing Truth
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB 2 [OD] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [OD] Divert
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 3 [MM] Energy Flux

I pulled out Grimoire Theives for MD Jittes and ET.
I changed the Sideboard to incorporate more hate vs. "Stupid aggro" decks that seem to just steam roll me, such as Affinity and Goblins. I think Berserk Affinity really has a chance to make a good showing at the GP for anyone who isn't prepared for it. Energy Flux out of the board + Propaganda really helps the matchup.
Wipe Away deals with things such as Choke or Moat, which seem to give us problems as well.
ET helps in our Dredge/Combo MUs and Propaganda + SoFI + Jittes seem to be working vs. Goblins so far.

Any ideas?

[elof]

You know basicly have my list, except +1 Wipe Away, +2 Jitte for my 3 Stifle. I personally love Stifle so I can't recommend your changes. But, if you really like it then go for it. Jitte is really good against slower aggro decks while Stifle is better against sweepers like EE and Deed. I also don't like Swords in the sideboard because they cost a million mana to activate. Also, without Stifle/Needle, you have no answer (except counters) to EE/Deed...

[DeeJus]

You know basicly have my list, except +1 Wipe Away, +2 Jitte for my 3 Stifle. I personally love Stifle so I can't recommend your changes. But, if you really like it then go for it. Jitte is really good against slower aggro decks while Stifle is better against sweepers like EE and Deed. I also don't like Swords in the sideboard because they cost a million mana to activate. Also, without Stifle/Needle, you have no answer (except counters) to EE/Deed...

Very true about the lack of protection against Sweepers. SoFI in the SB are experimental against goblins and for the mirror. They seem to be helping tons, in coordination with Jittes. Otherwise, they do seem a bit slow at times.

[kilukru]

just as a side note, i now firmly beleive thet tidal warrior is a bigger asset than i previously tough. At first I was using it to allow islandwalk, but i found out that 4 stifle+ 4 wasteland + 4 tidal ca really mana screw a non blue deck. Tidal , cmbined with the two other, can really kept someone off a color for a couple turns.

Im considering running 2 main and 2 side. Im gonna try to put more testing in this but im short on time. I strongly suggest trying this, as always witht his deck come the what to cut question so the mainboard relic got the cut for my tests, not sure if it's the right choice but that's not the point here.

It also up the merfolk count on the deck and the card is very flexible, he can work on aggro (he's a beater), utility (allow isladwalk) or control (manascrewing) and he come in early as opposed to BTB who need 3 mana and cant be vialed in (btb where dropped from 3 to 2 in sb).