[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

[DeathwingZERO]

I think with the inclusion of Street Wraith it has to follow an all or nothing sort of thing. I don't see much viability of the card if it's less than a 4 of, because it needs to be seen in the opening grip, or on the draw, to be most effective. If you don't see it in the opening hand, it's really just more Ichorid fodder, and not really living up to it's potential.

Do you think keeping 3 Darkblast in the main was a good idea? I've always liked having the Thug simply for being able to recur Narc's and chump block all day in bad situations.

Are the 4 Wispmare necessary in your meta in addition to the CoV? I didn't see much about your sideboarding other than CoV coming in a few times.

Most of the questions about your build are pretty much entirely based on your meta, so I guess knowing what you've been seeing recently would be helpful in determining if there's any changes needing to be tested.

[Pulp_Fiction]

It was just a test, I was trying a new build and I was not impressed. It probably is 4 SW or none at all. As far as SB goes, all meta. Wispmare is sided in against Leyline which I see in mass and I have cast CoV on Leyline, then failed to combo off and seen it recast VIA Dark Ritual enough times that I play Wispmare. Also great against stacks, it avoids CotV@1 and removes those Ghostly Prisons! Plus it can be reanimated late game in a very tight spot.

Chain I only side in against people who I have no idea what they are playing or against creature based hate like Jailer.

I have played Thug in the Darkblast spot and I dont like it. Darkblast is spectacular, especially in a meta filled with Goblins! It acts as its own discard outlet a lot of the time and really fucks up your opponent's first turn drops like Birds, Lackey, Fanatic, etc, and is spectacular in the mirror match.

For now I am just going to revert back to my original build in the OP. That is the most consistent list I have played. I really want to add SW into it but I just don't see how it can work. Just not enough space to fit in 4 and based on the deck's performance last night 2 is not the way to go.

[Joe_C]

I have been running 3 street wraith in my build(although I do not run breakthrough) and have been happy with that number. I dont like having it in my opening hand without a discard outlet since it makes mulliganning alot harder. Getting one into your hand off a turn 1 study is good. I feel good running 3

[bum_man]

I have been running 3 street wraith in my build(although I do not run breakthrough) and have been happy with that number. I dont like having it in my opening hand without a discard outlet since it makes mulliganning alot harder. Getting one into your hand off a turn 1 study is good. I feel good running 3

Street Wraith is a good card without a doubt. I guess it's a play preference or metagame call for you to not run breakthroughs but aren't you missing breakthrough's explosiveness? I tried running only 2 breakthrough with 3 Wraiths, sad to say i find that the deck doesn't win fast enough. I lost a few games that i should've won given i had more breakthroughs and the 2nd Sage. You're winning with it so I guess it is that good.

[Joe_C]

This really just makes absolutely no sense to me. Why would you want to give up one of the most attractive parts of Ichorid - winning the first game quickly? In the postboard games, you can side out LED and Deep Analysis if you want a more consistent deck to fight hate. Look at EPIC Painter for example: the deck runs a cheap combo to win an easy game one, then boards into a better aggro-control deck with Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker.

If you're really bent on this idea, I think running 4 Cabal Therapy, 4 Unmask, and 4 Dread Return (because, you know, you feel it's rather crucial) would make a lot of sense. I also think running a large dude, such as Empyrial Archangel, Simic Sky Swallower, or Akroma, Angel of Fury, instead of Flame-Kin Zealot could be beneficial. Running a slower version of Ichorid means Landstill, Dreadstill, and Thresh get Engineered Explosives active by the time you get to combo. Zombie tokens rather fragile compared to big guys that are hard to remove.

I just want to point out that this NAY SAYER Just Top 8'd with this deck this past weekend.... You've been Called out Jaynel!!!!!!!!!!!

Report!!!!!

[DeathwingZERO]

I'd like to see his list. Advocating for 4 Therapy, Unmask, AND Dread Return just seems really......packed tight. I had to cut Unmask to the SB, and I fell 4 Dread Return is just too much dead stuff in the hand (as I only need 1 to win, 2 if I can't get down far enough without Sage). I'd like to see if that is actually what he played.

[Joe_C]

I'd like to see his list. Advocating for 4 Therapy, Unmask, AND Dread Return just seems really......packed tight. I had to cut Unmask to the SB, and I fell 4 Dread Return is just too much dead stuff in the hand (as I only need 1 to win, 2 if I can't get down far enough without Sage). I'd like to see if that is actually what he played.

i know he was running unmask, not sure if he was running the playset. His mana base was 3 Ctiy, 4 Colesium, 4 Mine, 2 Paradise. Seemed to work well for him... Im not sure of his matchups throughout the day. I am hoping to draw his attention back to the thread to talk about it.... I doubt he was running 4 return. He had 2 tribe in his build as far as I saw...

[claudio.r]

Been to a tournament earlier today, and man, did i got my ass kicked. I'm thinking right now "have to build a deck that don't lose to random.dec". So i'm inclined to build a ledless version of ichorid. Any thoughts or recomendations ? What should i get first and some tips on playing the thing ?

thx
Cláudio

[Pulp_Fiction]

Page 1 on the thread. Read primer.

[Jaynel]

Here's what I ran:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
3 City of Brass
2 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Putrid Imp
2 Tireless Tribe
4 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Unmask
3 Dread Return

1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage

Sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Wispmare
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Bogardan Hellkite

Played against Dragon Stompy (2-0), NOThresh (2-1), Dragon Stompy (2-1), then drew the last two rounds into top 8. Lost to Brassman Blue in the top 8.

Some thoughts:
Chalice sat in my sideboard all day being pretty useless. Relic is a beating. Unmask was medicore, but I can see it being good.

Trinket Mage aggro-control seems like a really tough match to me. I punted game 1 in the top 8: I Unmask him turn 2, seeing fetch, fetch, dual, Force, CB, Trinket Mage. I take the Trinket Mage, then have my Careful Study countered by Force and just never get rolling (a Counterbalance lands and blind flips get me, followed by Tarmogoyf beatings). I guess taking the Force is the right call, then hope to dredge into Narcomoeba + Therapy the next turn?

Games 2 and 3 are rough, especially now that most lists are splitting Relic and Crypt, making Pithing Needle harder to use.

I had 2 (I think) turn 2 wins (turn 1 Putrid Imp/Tireless Tribe, turn 2 Breakthough), so the deck can still win pretty quickly. Having more lands is really effective postboard to reliably cast spells (and Breakthrough with x>0 is pretty fucking awesome).

The tournament was pretty inconclusive and I haven't tested the deck much otherwise. So I'm not really sure whether this or LED Ichorid is better.

[Joe_C]

Dredge
Richard Feldman
Grand Prix-Chicago
4 gemstone mine
4 city of brass
3 tarnished citadel
4 cephalid coliseum
4 putrid imp
4 tireless tribe
4 careful study
4 breakthrough
4 golgari grave-troll
4 stinkweed imp
4 golgari thug
4 narcomoeba
4 bridge from below
2 dread return
1 flame-kin zealot
3 cabal therapy
3 ichorid
Sideboard
4 pithing needle
4 leyline of the void
4 pyrite spellbomb
1 akroma, angel of wrath
1 ichorid
1 darkblast

this interesting list made day 2 of the GP... Noone noticed? Interesting board! Seemed to treat him well enough though to make it to day 2..

No cephalid sage, 4 tireless tribe.... Does he post on here? Id like to hear about his matchups.....

[Muradin]

I actually just don't get why he is playing pyrite spell bomb... As s solution to problematic utility creatures? I guess there are better alternatives...

[Parcher]

Yes, that list made Day 2 at the Grand Prix. And won a total of eight matches during both days. So, uh......yeah. Congrats on breaking tne 50% win ratio.

[Joe_C]

Somewhat inspired by Jaynel's top 8 version here is the list ive been pumelling face with over the past week:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Putrid Imp
2 Tireless Tribe
4 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Unmask
3 Dread Return

1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage

Sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
2 ancient grudge
2 darkblast
1 ancestors chosen
2 wispmare
2 chain of vapor
1 ray of revelation
1 unmask

has been running smoothly so far. I would love to squeeze in study #4 and 1 more land, but its so tight, and i like unmask as a 2 of in those perfect situations where it allows you to do mean things to your opponent

[Dr.AgOn]

how about playing the tireless tribe / about face combo and winning on turn 2?
The opponent starts, so you can draw a card, otherwise it won't work on turn two. You play Tireless Tribe, Turn two you draw a card, discard 5, making Tribe a 1/21, play About Face and attack ftw.

It's only a 2 card combo and the drawback of discarding your hand doesn't really matter.

[Joe_C]

how about playing the tireless tribe / about face combo and winning on turn 2?
The opponent starts, so you can draw a card, otherwise it won't work on turn two. You play Tireless Tribe, Turn two you draw a card, discard 5, making Tribe a 1/21, play About Face and attack ftw.

It's only a 2 card combo and the drawback of discarding your hand doesn't really matter.

Because About face does nothing to further the normal gameplan of dredge, sure it could steal a game or two here and there, but is weak against counter and spot removal. We dont need our tribe getting stp'd or blocked and having it die leaving us with no hand and no discard outlet.

[bum_man]

Somewhat inspired by Jaynel's top 8 version here is the list ive been pumelling face with over the past week:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Putrid Imp
2 Tireless Tribe
4 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Unmask
3 Dread Return

1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage

Sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
2 ancient grudge
2 darkblast
1 ancestors chosen
2 wispmare
2 chain of vapor
1 ray of revelation
1 unmask

has been running smoothly so far. I would love to squeeze in study #4 and 1 more land, but its so tight, and i like unmask as a 2 of in those perfect situations where it allows you to do mean things to your opponent

Have you tried taking out 1 ichorid for the 4th study? I think the 4th study is more important than the 4th ichorid because it helps in pulling-off the combo. From my experience with the deck, 3 Ichorids are enough for the last resort aggro plan and careful study is a very powerful card especially post-board due to its ability to find sb cards. That's my thoughts on it anyway.

Just curious about your ancestor's chosen in the sideboard. In what match-ups do you usually side it in? Red match-ups? Aggro? and what do you usually side-out for it? I assume you trade-out FKZ for Ancestor's Chosen since you expect that you won't be winning via a one-turn zombie rush.

[Joe_C]

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
3 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage

Sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
2 ancient grudge
3 darkblast
1 ancestors chosen
2 wispmare
2 chain of vapor
1 ray of revelation

This is my most recent version. Ive given up on pretty much trying to beat combo, not too many people play it in my area since there is a lot of counterbalance around so me disregarding that matchup normally isnt such a big deal. Bumping thug up to 4 has been nice, its an extra snack for ichorid and more dredgers never hurts. I also found room for study #4 and the 3rd tribe, and another land which makes my turn 1 plays alot stronger. As to ancestors chosen, it comes in against combo since the life gain puts you way out of normal tendrils range and also against aggro like goblins or goyf sligh, and burn. What I take out is dependant on the matchup, falme kin can get you a turn 2 win so I probably would rarely board that out unless I know I need to play the slow dredge game and grind it out

[bum_man]

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
3 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage

Sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
2 ancient grudge
3 darkblast
1 ancestors chosen
2 wispmare
2 chain of vapor
1 ray of revelation

This is my most recent version. Ive given up on pretty much trying to beat combo, not too many people play it in my area since there is a lot of counterbalance around so me disregarding that matchup normally isnt such a big deal. Bumping thug up to 4 has been nice, its an extra snack for ichorid and more dredgers never hurts. I also found room for study #4 and the 3rd tribe, and another land which makes my turn 1 plays alot stronger. As to ancestors chosen, it comes in against combo since the life gain puts you way out of normal tendrils range and also against aggro like goblins or goyf sligh, and burn. What I take out is dependant on the matchup, falme kin can get you a turn 2 win so I probably would rarely board that out unless I know I need to play the slow dredge game and grind it out

How often do dredge into something lethal using only one dredge engine (ie. breakthrough, etc.)? Aren't you having difficulty dredging into something lethal without using sage for more gas? I used to run a list very similar to yours which i later modified to include an additional return and sage to be able to raise the percentages of having been able to dredge into a return and sage which could help me dredge more in case my graveyard isn't lethal yet. In testing, running out of gas a couple of times resulted in my opponent being able to recover (ie crypt and relic me X_X) I've been testing your list and so far its been golden.

[Joe_C]

Bum_man: what do you mean by- "Aren't you having difficulty dredging into something lethal without using sage for more gas?" I run a single sage in the deck, and more so than with LED Ichorid, one of the most solid ways to win is having ichorid come on the board and die EOT or get sacced for a therapy and beating with zombies for a few turns. The version I am running is more focused on getting a permanent discard outlet on board since I am running 4 Imp, 3 Tribe and 4 study to help me dig for an Imp or Tribe turn 1. Having a permanent outlet is huge in this deck. I may want to bump my breakthroughs back up to 4 since I am running a playset of Imps and 3 tribe. Turn 1 Imp/tribe with a next turn dredge draw step followed by breakthrough is quite often a win. I do have some debate over how many dread returns I should run, my thoughts on it are: What would I rather see every game? :

1. A turn 1 Imp/tribe?
2. If I run another return, how often is that 1 card going to be in my grave at the same time I have 3 creatures to sacrifice?
3. The 2nd sage: would I rather have another black creature like my 4th thug to feed ichorid with and possibly be the key dredge card I need off of a breakthrough to get into a kill?

I like having turn 1 Imp/Tribe over another return/sage. It may change in the future, but those are my thoughts on it at the moment. Also, my board is getting manipulated a bit:

4 Pithing Needle
2 Ingot Chewer
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Firestorm
2 Wispmare
1 Ancestor's Chosen

Bum_man, have you been testing my most recent list? What have you played against? Are you playing an exact replica or do you have some flex slots?