Nice job merpeople! Those are much better showings than I would have expected after just reading coverage on the event. I thought merfolk crapped out on people after only seeing 1 list of them (which had the faeries).
Anyway, I wouldn't cut Stifle, even with people knowing about it. Why? Because look at the lists people played at the GP. No list that was heavy control (I don't count countertop decks in that category) made it very far. Why? Because a tie is an effective loss in a tournament this big. Decks that pack Pernicious Deed and EE in force didn't make it through this tournament, since 9 rounds on day 1 is just too many to usually consistantly win through if you are playing a slower deck.
Take Stifle out and you'll probably regret it since I'm sure your local tournaments will see more rock-style or Landstill style decks in it. Sure, people can play around Stifle, but I've playtested against merfolk with many decks that have fetches, and even when I know he's saving the island up for stifle, I don't really have a choice but to crack my fetch for land on the chance that he doesn't have it. Playing around it is easy to do, but you still give up a lot. Plus, as gone over before, it's amazing against more things than just fetches, Deeds, and EE.
Also, I think one of the other reasons that you lost Duke is that random Jank decks > merfolk. We knew that going in, it's a shame you didn't have the 3 round byes that a lot of people did or you most likely would have made it to day 2 easily. Aether vial helps a lot for them too, but I think in general zooish decks are going to win.
Jank decks might beat merfolk, but tidal warrior > jank decks. He's like my mvp at my local tournament.
@dukedemonknight: Nice job considering everything! I personally have taken out propaganda because they don't seem to help the bad matchups anyway, and have put in jittes and stuff. My local meta has seen an insane amount of elf decks, so I've been sneaking some Hibernations into the sb (even helps against choke lolz).
Sick plays.
BTW with Stifle, you could target a token-generating trigger on the Bridge from Below, then sac the Cursecatcher to it. Same play anyway, but I always try to be aware of potential Cursecatcher targets.
You can always Catch your own Stifle to burn Bridges (although Stifle is obviously better stopping Moeba triggers).
Thanks, y'all.
@Phoenix Ignition: I know of at least two Merfolk decks that made Day Two, and one of them got into the money for like $200. I'm sure there were a few others that Day Two'ed, but I spent Day Two doing a terrible job of playing Standard, so I'm not too sure exactly what the Merf representation was like after Day One.
Also... not to kvetch too much, but Phoenix, if I had only one bye going into the tournament and played against the exact same decks in my other rounds, I would have made Day Two. So this really makes me want to bump up my player rating so I can get at least one bye...
And yeah... I know that a lot of random jank decks > well-tuned Merfolk lists. It just kinda sucks that I had to play against Slivers and the Jank Deck, since I'm sure these piles weren't very widely represented. But oh well.
On a strategy point: I can see the argument that Stifle is still good even if people play around it, but personally I find that if I end my turn with mana open in the first few turns of the game (the time when Stifle is usually most useful), it usually means I don't have optimal things to play on my turn. This is why it's so important that we play free counter-spells, because we can tap out and still bluff the opponent that their spells won't resolve.
I personally think that Stifle loses way more potential to opponent knowledge than Daze does though. Think about it this way: We need one land open, of a specific type, in order to represent Stifle to the opponent. On the other hand, we're always representing Daze as long as we have an Island in play and at least one card in hand. If the opponent plays around Stifle, we gain less than if he plays around Daze. On the surface, waiting to crack a fetch and saving one extra mana to go through Daze look about the same... But the fact is that nearly every deck that uses fetches prefers to wait on cracking them until they can get optimal use out of them, whether for color fixing, shuffling, getting a basic vs. Wasteland, etc. So the opponent actually modifies their game-plan much more greatly by playing around Daze than they do by playing around Stifle, in most circumstances.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
I finished 44th with the following list:
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergil Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Wake Thrasher
4 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Standstill
2 Repeal
1 Umezawa's Jitte
6 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Sower of Temptation
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Back to Basics
3 Divert
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Rd1-2 Byes
Rd 3 Mirror 2-1
Rd 4 ANT 1-2
Rd 5 UGWr Countertop 2-0
Rd 6 Dredge 1-2(scooped to a friend instead of drawing)
Rd 7 Ub Dreadstill 2-0
Rd 8 UGRb Countertop
Rd 9 Dredge 2-0
Rd 10 Loam 2-0
Rd 11 Goblins 0-2
Rd 12 Team America 2-0
Rd 13 Mirror 0-2
Rd 14 UGr Dreadstill 2-1
Rd 15 Burn (asked opponent to concede so I can build points and he obliged)
9-4 not counting byes. I did about 0 playtesting. I just read a lot and theorized and predicted that goblins would be scarce and blue would be everywhere and decided to sling some fishies.
- Llawan was for the mirror and a relevant answer to progenitus, but never drew it in the second mirror.
- Standstill was pretty bad all day, sided it out a lot. Still a good card but its value definitely fluctuates and may be better in the sideboard.
- Never got stifled. Played brainstorm because its insane not to if you're playing blue, just play smart around stifle with fetches.
- My SB was designed to have goblins be a punt matchup and it was, I think its a better approach.
- B2B beat aggro loam game 2 after my opp misplayed game one. Otherwise its really hard to make B2B work effectively, all my opponents would alternate games with all basics and all duals so it was rough(except for cake matches like TA and Loam where they play like 2 basics).
- Diverts seem necessary even though I didn't cast one all weekend. I lost to ANT because I mulled a 0 lander into a hand with Wasteland, FoW, and Divert, vial, Cursecatcher, Silvergil. I keep and never draw an Island/Fetch and his first two land drops are basics. I get chanted and he goes off.
- Sower should probably be a 2 of MD.
A lot of this may seem like nonsense to people who play the format more often than i do but this is what i found from my GP experience.
*EDIT* A point of argument for the repeal debate. I do see a strong weakness to other vial decks(as previously mentioned), and repeal is a house against this card as well. Being able to take their vial off the table when its at 0-1 counters is a huge blow to their game plan and usually wins the game outright if you have your own vial.
I'm with Phoenix on the Stifle call. If your opponent is playing around it hasn't it already done its job?
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Hello,
Im just guessing here.. but i have a few questions that i can't answer, a big help is appriciated.
1. The decks defense is mainly mana denial via:
- wasteland (hitting non basic lands)
- stifle (hitting fetch lands)
- tidal warrior (early to mid) can serve as a minor mana denial tool or let a wakethrasher pass through
2. Merrow Reejerey Effect + Aether Vial has no synergy
- If you vial out a merfolk Reejerey effect wouldn't trigger
3. The deck has no means of eliminating opposing creatures/threat via spot removal expect maybe for countermagic or bounce temporary solution
- If your opponent summons one fatty creature the deck will try to out race it.
- The deck will try to stifle/counter Deed effect
But how does the deck able to achieve from preventing opponents from casting fatty creatures mana denail maybe ?, but what about creatures like (tarmogoyf, jotun grunt, etc) the mana denail trick will not work effectively
- If so why are there no rishadan ports
- But even with rishadan ports im guessing you still can't control the mana efficiently
What if a Shroud creature (Troll Ascetic or Slihana Ledgewalker) equiped with jitte resolves, it will kill all the decks creatures.
- Again just guessing to prevent that from happening is through mana denial ??
4. Zero combat edge
- you need atleast 2-3 LoA and Reejerey just to bring down a Sliver Knight
So based on those statments i see that mana denial is a big part in a merfolk deck maybe im wrong pls correct me. if it is maybe improving this part could help ?
On the other hand going allout offense may work using creatures with evasion (rootwater thief, Inkfathom Infiltrator, etc) packing jitte etc. and just race with your opponent and countering key cards but i doubt it.
Maybe this could help ?
- I think Inkfathom Infiltrator + Jitte is a steady offense compared to creature drop each turn just to pump wakethrasher
- Jitte/Sofi/Equipment + Tidal Warrior + Lord of Atlantis + Any islandwalker critter could make the offense much faster and will give some form of creature control
And if theres a way (equipments jitte, empyral plate, etc just maybe??) that you could just limit your self from dropping everthing and crying when firespout, pernioucs deed etc kills all your critters so that you'll be asured that you will never run out of critters to finish your opponent
Or you just race large creatures. They have a 'goyf, you have a Lord, a Reejeray, etc. You swing for unblockable, they swing for a few. You counter stuff you are too worried about. Tidal Warrior can make everything unblockable, not mana denial. Srsly?
Originally Posted by Forbiddian
Good against decks with nonbasics, check. (Though personally I think Tidal Warrior is unnecessary.) How did you forget counterspells in your *thorough* breakdown of the deck?
If you need him to tap something then don't vial it in? The trigger goes on the stack regardless of the opponent countering the spell. Also, you need Reejery's ability late game, when you have plenty of lands waiting to be used to cast things.
Goyf looks like a 0/1 with Relic. Jotun looks like a non-hasted Blistering Firecat. Also, I've never seen a deck run either of these without blue. (Okay most decks run goyf, but the only 3 I can think of that don't have blue are A. Survival of the Fittest which is extremely easy to mana deny until you win, B. Goyf Sligh pray to the gods they suck or you get a decent hand + Standstill, or C. Zoo, scoop now if you can't keep them off of forests.)
Guessing is my second favorite way to completely trash a DTB. Playtesting is usually my first route.
I really hate when creatures (especially shrouded ones) resolve with an already equipped Jitte!! Do to the rising popularity of Troll Ascetic and Silhana Ledgewalker, we should see merfolks tanking it soon.
Okay it was fun to rip apart half of your posts, but honestly what metagame do you play in. Silver Knight!?
There's this one card called not overextending into massive burn, along with a few cards called don't play stupidly and save your counterspells.
Aggro Loam! How's that match-up by the way? I don't think it's good...
Anyway, I've been sleeving up some fishes too like so many others, and am completely unimpressed by Wake Thrasher. Often the other fishes are big enough because there are often 2 lords on the table. Does anyone else reckognize this?
Also, I feel the deck lacks control. Sure there are FoW's and Dazes, I also play 2 Kira's for protection, but somewhere, it lacks serious power like Countertop. I understand it's pretty much impossible to try and fit that in. Does anyone have any suggestions to let the deck have a bit more control. I've been trying some bounce too, but often it's not enough.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
1. Basically a yes plus the few counters you have. In theory attacking is also defense because you force your opponent to stay home with his creatures.
2. That is true. So you sometimes have to choose to actually play a Merfolk with a Rejeerey and a Vial on the board either to tap an opposing creature or to untap/tap a land whatever.
3. It can sometimes take over creatures with Threads or Sower. personally I like the idea of Sower more now I have seen it in many sideboards. One fatty can be raced. More fatties become problematic. The lategame of Merfolk usually isnt that strong. Yeah and stifling Deed and EE is common.
Fatty creatures ... the games should be over by then ;) Goyfs, Stalker, Grunts are controlled by Relics -> Goyfs shrink and can be blocked eventually, Stalkers never come into play, Grunts do not live long. That is the reason Relic sees played maindeck often.
Rishadan Ports -> Imho there is just no space for them and 19 lands is enough.
Shroud creatures with Jitte. That is just double bad. Shroud creatures apart from Mongoose (--> see Relics) are a problem. Jitte is usually game over if you do not have a superior board position already. Thats the main reason I used to play 3 Needle in the sideboard. But I am getting more and more convinced that for the standard list 2 Jittes SB are not too bad especially for the mirror or against R/W.
Your last question is exactly what im thinking about currently because I saw a lot of successful list lately that didnt play Stifle for more creatures like different Faeries, more Folks and Jitte. So Merfolks seem to be at least to a certain degree interchangeable between different approaches without loosing competitiveness.
@Duke: Thanks for sharing this report with us. I read it with pleasure. My most funny play during the last tournament was when I played The Rock and his life points are at 3 so he tries to Vindicate his own Confi not to die eventually in his upkeep. I can misdirect (hardcast) Vindicate to some other target so that Confi may live on. Unfortunately he just draws into another Swords and I die in the same turn ;)
@Ummmyeh: Llawan, Cephalid Empress is a pretty funny sideboard inclusion for the mirror. Me likes.
/* EDIT*/ Bah someone was seconds faster then me ;) /*EDIT*/
There were 10 Merfolk decks on Day Two, making it the third most successful decktype after CounterTop (not Thresh) and Goblins. ANT had 10 as well, while stuff like Landstill, Aggro Loam or Thresh had less people making Day Two than Merfolk.
georgjorgeGeistreich sind schon die anderen.
I remember also that there's one list which looks totally AWFUL that went into the top16 on day 1 trial:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23965
Counterspells 'n' Mishra's factories ftw guys !
-----------------------------------------------------
Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
@Phoenix Ignition
Thanks for answering and giving infos. But at in no point in time i was thrashing the deck, when i saw the deck i said to myself this looks like a fun and strong deck to play thats why i was asking several questions, no need to be harsh in your replies.
I never said that the deck isn't good nor i've made bad comments about it. I just ask and gave some opinions of my own. Sorry if my statements was too noobish.
@Nekrataal
Thanks for answering and giving infos.
Today i was able to test the deck here where my thoughts on it.
This is just me...
- Stifle + Wasteland + Rishadan ports + Tidal Warrior is good enough to delay your opponents.
I used 4 stifles, 3 wasteland, 3 rishadan ports and 3 tidal warrior
- Wake Thrasher - I was very surprised at it, i never expected it to be so good. Maybe 3 is right number for this guy.
- I didn't use mutavault + standstill in my test, i felt i lack the draw but for the mutavaults it seem ok even without it.
- Once your opponent has landed a countertop lock its so hard to recover after a board sweep.
- I was wondering aswell if countertop could fit in.
I wouldnt run Ports AND Warriors. Decide for one option. 1-2 Ports could be squeezed in I guess as well as 2 maybe 3 Warriors but not both. But then ... that is up to you. Many ppl have tested Ports and Warrior and didnt recommend this configuration, although at least warrior is getting some more love lately.
Thresher is good most of the time. Against burn though I usually board him out. Mutavault + Standstill + Vial is just too good not to run it. It won me a lot of games because three extra cards is just good and once you have the slightest board advantage it is not a rare occasion you drop a second Standstill right after the first one. Of course there are matchups where it sucks but this is about 20% of the field max and still then it might be playable if you get a good start.
CounterTop of course is very hard. If you expect a lot I would think about playing Spell Snare instead of maybe Daze or Stifle in the SB.
CounterTop in Merfolk? I dont see it. For the lack of draw you would have to play at least 4CB/3SDT. For the lack of Fetchlands/Brainstorm/Ponder CBT is situationally worse then in Decks build for it because you cannot shuffle your Deck to have a better choice of topdeck cards. Last but not least it takes up 7 slots you just dont have. A major issue imho also is that you have not enough spell backup to protect CBT. You already have to care for your folks and that no harm comes down on them. Decks like Baseeruption do not rely on having several beaters out. Merfolks do. At least you would like to have 2-3 beaters out on the board and keep your counters for removal or potential blockers or danger cards liek Moat/Choke/CB ans so on. CBT would need a much more controllish deck which condradicts the philosophie of Merfolks imho.
Merfolk are really crappy creatures. Nobody is arguing with you that we'd rather they'd printed Elves or Goblins in Blue.
They didn't, though. The only other things in blue are the stuff in Faerie Stompy and the stuff in Faeries. I think that Merfolk are better than those, primarily because of Islandwalk, but also more stable mana base and a deeper early-game decision tree.
Merfolk aren't entirely horrible, but in any other color, they would not ever see play. Ever. Even if Merfolk were White, which has mediocre dudes anyway and great support would not be able to make Merfolk playable.
The primary advantage that Merfolk has: Access to Daze, Standstill, and Force of Will. Our defense against almost everything that you said is: Daze, Standstill, and Force of Will. And then Stifle or Spellsnare, usually.
If you ignore that, you really have no clue why we'd bother with Merfolk. Mana Denial is not the first, last, and only line of defense. Compared to every other aggro deck (except some weird Zoo variants and FS/Faeries which I discussed), we have counterspells.
I'm not sure that makes up for the bad creatures, but it's definitively the edge that Merfolk has on the rest of the competition.
Just curious, man... Are you the dude I smoked cigarettes with and shared lists with?? I'm not totally sure you are, because I don't remember seeing Llawan in the sideboard... But I do remember that dude I talked to was main-decking Repeal, and had some number of Jitte in the sideboard...
I'm starting to think that you're not the dude I was chatting with... But, just to get all "Craigslist" on you for a second: Me: skinny dude from Mississippi, goatee, wearing a black bubble-goose jacket... You: also rather slender dude, full beard, played against my friend Guy's Burn deck on Day One, I think...
*Anyhow, congrats on your finish... You're confirming my suspicion that this deck gets infinitely better odds of a good finish if it has a few byes so as not to have to play against the scrub-decks (Like for example, who in hell, besides my Round One opponent, still plays Meathooks??? WTF)
EDIT: @Forbiddian: I don't think it's so much that Merfolk are bad creatures, it's just that there aren't enough of the good ones. I mean, yeah, they're Blue, so they sort of have to be comparatively worse than if they were like, Green...
But I'm hoping that in the next block after this whole Shards nonsense, Merfolks keep getting more of that Lorwyn-block-lovin'. Or, if they were to somehow print a sequel to the Planar Chaos set, let me give this humble suggestion: Merfolk Lackey!!!!!!!!!!
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
Keep dreamin', dude, keep dreamin'....
-----------------------------------------------------
Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
No. God no. No more lackeys. Not now. Not ever.
I wonder how it feels to be bored.
-Jhoira, artificer
@Duke:I don,t really think merfolk could get much better(besides printing of merfolk lackey, which, unfortunately isn't going to happen, i guess;p)
Even if they printed some good folks what are you going to cut?
Standstill? - without CA it would suck anyway...
Vials? - not cutting it for obvious reasons
Fow, Daze? - this little disruption really makes it (arguably) aggro-control.
You won't cut those(or you could as well switch to goblins;P)
...which leads us to cutting critters. Most of us run about 18-22 and 16 of them are more or less agreed to be the auto-4-of core.
So I guess in the end you could squeeze 4 of some good 'new' merfolks, but would that change a lot? Or maybe it's just grumbling me...
Anyway, I've just started with the deck and yet I'm quite optimistic, not very experienced though. I'm currently looking for some way to improve the aggro matchup. Have any of you guys, used Jitte during the gp? How was it working for you?
There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 2 guests)
Reply With Quote