[Premium Article] Innovations - Blame it on the Counterbalance

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm pretty sure this had nothing to do with Tarmogoyf being printed and had everything to do with people being idiots and not realizing how insane the lock is.

Not really. The format had a lot more control decks, not to mention Goblins, back then. Also, Threshold needed to get- well, Threshold. Making running cards like Top and Balance that don't hit the yard (as opposed to Portent and Counterspell) less appealing. And other decks simply didn't have a really efficient threat to pair it with.

Tarmogoyf made it really easy to play Counter-Top with a fast clock.

Wild Mongrel and Psychatog were both more powerful and more distorting in their formats than Tarmogoyf is in Legacy and were not banned.

Depends. Wild Mongrel and Tog, when they were dominant in T2, had a few months before a new set came in and changed things. They also required you to play a deck. Tarmogoyf doesn't. Tarmogoyf goes in almost everything and obsoletes almost every creature except those help you find more of your own Tarmogoyfs (Confidant) and steal an opponent's Tarmogoyfs (Sower).

[Volt]

I'm pretty sure this had nothing to do with Tarmogoyf being printed and had everything to do with people being idiots and not realizing how insane the lock is.

Yeah, it did take longer than it should have for CB-Top to catch on.

Top is less time intensive the better you are at Magic.

Okay. I guess Wizards should have told everybody to get better at Magic so they wouldn't have to ban Top in Extended, then.

Wild Mongrel and Psychatog were both more powerful and more distorting in their formats than Tarmogoyf is in Legacy and were not banned.

Hmm, I can't go along with that. Those creatures found homes in a few different decks that happened to dominate for a while, while Tarmogoyf has infected modern day Legacy kind of the same way that Mr. Smith infected the matrix in Matrix 3.

[frogboy]

Okay. I guess Wizards should have told everybody to get better at Magic so they wouldn't have to ban Top in Extended, then.

Someone was whining about pros taking longer to Top. I'm also fairly sure if it was legal, then Counterbalance would have to go for power level. I mean, the best deck in Extended is already a blue aggro control deck.

Those creatures found homes in a few different decks that happened to dominate for a while, while Tarmogoyf has infected modern day Legacy kind of the same way that Mr. Smith infected the matrix in Matrix 3.

Like, sure, MBC and a couple other decks existed, but most of them were bad. Mongrel aggro and Psychatog were pretty much it. The format didn't really change until sets rotated.

And other decks simply didn't have a really efficient threat to pair it with.

You don't need a threat, you just need to not die. I think Tarmogoyf is bad in most of the Counterbalance decks that aren't aggressive because it's basically a removal spell that can be countered by Swords to Plowshares.

[Zinch]

I'm pretty sure this had nothing to do with Tarmogoyf being printed and had everything to do with people being idiots and not realizing how insane the lock is.

Top is less time intensive the better you are at Magic.

Wild Mongrel and Psychatog were both more powerful and more distorting in their formats than Tarmogoyf is in Legacy and were not banned.

Well, before claiming that every Legacy player is an idiot, you have to think before... Everyone knew that top-balance was very good in legacy, but if you are so clever, try to play it in a metagame without tarmogoyf where goblins will eat you every round and where Landstill will kill you with mishra's before you archieve threshold for your werebears...

Legacy players are not idiots, only that 'goyf changed the metagamen in a way where top-balance is a gamebreaking combination

[scrow213]

I am basically agreeing with a lot of what has already been said. CB+Top isn't broken, but I can certainly see the argument for time-sinking. It happened in Extended, so it can easily happen with Legacy.

As for Tarmogoyf, I have wanted to see him gone for a long time. He is severely undercosted and permeates nearly any deck in the format. When you can take almost any deck, throw some green duals and Tarmogoyfs in and make it better, that's bad. It makes Legacy boring. 2 mana? Let me guess... Tarmogoyf! He pigeon-holes other creatures into niche decks and obsoletes anything that costs more than 2 mana (generally speaking). As it was stated before, the only other creatures that see play (outside tribal) are creatures to find Tarmogoyf (Bob) and creatures to take opposing Tarmogoyf (Sower).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Also, Tarmogoyf invalidates huge chunks of the color red- Lightning Bolt and Flametongue Kavuhave gone kind of craptastic.

[bowvamp]

Yeah, I hate goyf. He makes legacy be so much more... costly. Also, I even saw him splashed into pox.

[deadlock]

I thought for a long time that Goyf should be banned, but two things changed my mind.
If you argument that Goyf goes in so many decks, than you should argue with cards like FoW too. Is it just because green got a stable? You may add green for the package of Goyf and Grip to you freshly build deck, you may also add blue for FoW, BS, Daze and Ponder to your deck so what?

More importantly and already scratched by Zinch, if you look at the pre-Goyf (and CB) era dominated forestmost by Goblins, Threshold and to a lesser extend Solidarity than you see that the decline of Goblins and Solidarity spawned quite a bunch of new decks / made archtypes viable again.

Saying that Goyf basically reads '1U' (put it in every blue deck) is not the problem of Goyf, its the problem of blue, bringing so many poweful cards and mechanics to the table.

Also like CB Goyf can be answered to a certain degree quite easily, not only by all kinds of removal (which would be no argument), but by a nice utility card called Relic of Progenitus.

[scrow213]

Yeah, I hate goyf. He makes legacy be so much more... costly. Also, I even saw him splashed into pox.

It's not even about the price. He skews deck design to fit him. He makes CB better and forces smaller mana curves. He pigeon-holes other creatures into a few niche scenarios.

[Nihil Credo]

I agree with IBA that banning Tarmogoyf would probably make the format more diverse, and likely also more fun.

It's worth noting, though, that the DCI acts quite conservatively on this subject: it bans cards when there is a serious format health problem, not just because it would be an improvement.

When cards like Umezawa's Jitte or Bitterblossom were running amok in Standard, developers admitted that they were a mistake and that the game would be better without them. But still they didn't ban them because, although the format could have been better, it was good enough that people kept playing it.

That Legacy in its current form is quite popular is what makes me predict that, come this March, the DCI will keep the usual suspects on their watch list and probably hold some lengthy discussion about them, but ultimately choose to not ban anything. They'll wait until they are convinced that attendance is going to actually suffer from it.

[scrow213]

I agree with IBA that banning Tarmogoyf would probably make the format more diverse, and likely also more fun.

It's worth noting, though, that the DCI acts quite conservatively on this subject: it bans cards when there is a serious format health problem, not just because it would be an improvement.

When cards like Umezawa's Jitte or Bitterblossom were running amok in Standard, developers admitted that they were a mistake and that the game would be better without them. But still they didn't ban them because, although the format could have been better, it was good enough that people kept playing it.

That Legacy in its current form is quite popular is what makes me predict that, come this March, the DCI will keep the usual suspects on their watch list and probably hold some lengthy discussion about them, but ultimately choose to don't ban anything. They'll wait until they are convinced that attendance is going to actually suffer from it.

Well said, but a thing to note is that, unlike Standard (or Extended), they can't just say "Oops, mistake. It will rotate out in a couple months anyway." It's in Legacy, and if they don't remove it, it will never leave.

As to the argument that FoW should be treated the same... what? FoW requires you to play a heavy blue element, where 'goyf doesn't force you to play any more green that just the 'goyf. FoW fills a role that no other card does (free counterspell on turn 0), where Tarmogoyf doesn't (cheap vanilla beatstick), he just does it way better than any other option. FoW doesn't force other good and diverse options out of the meta, while 'goyf does (Psychatog, Werebear, Wild Mongrel, etc). These are not even close to the same thing.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I agree with both the idea that Goyf, unlike Fow, or Brainstorm, or StP or Thoughtseize or Wasteland, obsoletes a whole range of common options and strategies by simply being vastly better with no commitment required.

I also agree that the format is still diverse and interesting even with Goyf, and that the DCI probably won't do anything for that reason.

[Volt]

Concur re: goyf.

I think SDT probably (60/40) will get banned, but maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part.

[scrow213]

Re: 'goyf

Just got into this argument with some guy on SCG and this is basically how it panned out. I was arguing that Tarmogoyf is the main reason that CB + Top is so potent, as it forces decks to play cheap creatures, instead of the higher cost power creatures it used to play (FtK, Baloth, etc). (I am stormywaters over there)

The NLU decks that paired off against each other in the finals of the GP had answers to cc1 through cc5 spells to match with CB in their stack. How much higher do you think somebody would have to go to make Counterbalance too risky to play? I think the obvious answer is - much too high to be effective in Legacy.

Your argument is false. Force of Will is there as a counter, not for Counterbalance. I would not count a 4-of as a reliable way to CB a 5cc spell. Moving to the 4cc slot, we have 2-3 Sower of Temptation. I don't think that does anything noticeable for CB either. So the real curve is 0-3. Even at 3cc, they only run a few spells there. So realistically the curve is 0-2 with some 3cc. They may have an outside shot at countering a Wrath of God, but nothing close to reliably.

I play Stax, which is almost entirely all 3cc and up. I never worry about Counterbalance at all, because I know they will almost never hit anything I play with any sort of consistency.

Find me a deck with counterspells that does not use Force of Will and I'll buy your argument. Until then I see nothing wrong with cards that are clearly better than other cards and thus included in most decks that can accomodate them.

Another invalid argument. FoW is not the same for the following reasons:

1) Requires a heavy blue base (Tarmogoyf does not require any other green at all)

2) Fills a role not otherwise filled (free counter on turn 0) and Tarmogoyf does not (vanilla beatstick)

3) Does not make a large swath of similar cards useless (since there is only 1 other turn 0 free counter), where Tarmogoyf does (as listed several times in this thread)

So these two cannot even be compared. Any actually valid points?

1) Does not require a heavy blue base, Force of Will goes into any deck that is going to play 15 blue cards or more including 4x Force of Will. Find me a deck which is half blue and does not include Force of Will.

2) Beside the point. Auto-include is auto-include.

3. Completely false. Nobody plays Spell Blast or Powersink or Force Spike or Flash Counter or any of the other counters available because Force of Will is an auto-include in all counter suites. Daze, Spell Snare and Counterspell all get played at some level in some decks however Force of Will gets played at the 4x level in every deck with counters except for Aluren. You have to believe that there would be room for specialty inferior counters in many decks alongside the 2-4 of's above if Force of Will wasn't included at 4-of in every deck. It eats the breathing space that all other counters occupy and causes some of them that would have utility otherwise to not have utility. Just as Tarmogoyf does to all other green creatures. Powersink in particular would have value as an ambush counter if it was not for the fact that Force of Will out of hand completely negates it without forcing the opponent to spend any mana, and actually allows the opponent to tap out and satisfy it without losing the ability to counter what comes next.

Wow. First of all, 16+ is the generally accepted minimum blue cards for playing FoW. Secondly, this makes my deck half blue. I can't play a black deck with a light blue splash for FoW. I can, however, play a black(/red/white/blue) deck with a light splash for 'goyf. Nice argument.

Next, auto-include in a deck that is at least half blue is different from auto-include in a deck that you can squeeze a couple of Bayous or Tropicals into. Not even close. Move along.

Finally, no. Nobody plays Force Spike because it's not good enough any more. Same with Flash Counter, Mana Leak, etc. None of the cards you listed can counter a spell on turn 0. Force does this. It fills a role that no other card does. Tarmogoyf does what any other vanilla beatstick does. Force does something unique. That is the difference. Read my post please. kthx.

[Jak]

Maybe a much more effective argument is to list cards that Tarmogoyf basically trumped out of the format. I'll start with some off the top of my head and if I forget any, please add on.

Troll Ascetic
Flametongue Kavu
Wild Mongrel
Psychatog
Arrogant Wurm
Werebear
Exalted Angel
Loxodon Heirarch
Ravenous Baloth
Nimble Mongoose (it is getting there)

Those are off the top of my head so please add on.

I would also like to note that those creatures spawned many decks and there was variety.

[kabal]

Maybe a much more effective argument is to list cards that Tarmogoyf basically trumped out of the format. I'll start with some off the top of my head and if I forget any, please add on.

Loxodon Heirarch
Troll Ascetic

Seriously? They are still played. Just a quick scan of deckcheck of decks in 2008 that top 8 with them was over 100 (70/30 towards Heirarch). This site is pretty much just the European scene.

[Isamaru]

I never wanted to complain about Tarmogoyf, but if we're talking about which of the three would be the most 'healthy' if banned, Tarmogoyf is more of a format-warper than Top or Counterbalance. (Some good reasons include those discussed above.)

The problem is time/its clock. Of course the argument has already been discussed to death, but even if you have the answers for it, you have to find them and resolve them within the next 3-4 turns, or lose. Just because Tarmogoyf can be killed and doesn't have trample doesn't take into account the fact that it is a single, compact threat that takes such little effort to plop down. Letting strategies that otherwise have trouble with creatures to just play Tarmogoyf ends up somewhat 'warping' things.

At the Grand Prix, I ended up losing to a Tarmogoyf, even though I have a huge amount of answers, bigger creatures, tons of blockers, and even mainboard Relic of Progenitus (and including the fact that my deck is based around one of the best ways to deal with Tarmogoyf - stealing it). I couldn't find it / the means to play it / multiple to get through counters / etc. in time.

Counterbalance doesn't put you on a clock, it just asks to be dealt with before you can try to win afterwards. The times I lose to Counterbalance are almost always when a Tarmogoyf is attacking underneath it.

[undone]

For referance those who say no other card fulfills the requirement of turn 0 0 mana counter your plans have been FOILed. Clearly you dont know your own arguement. FOW is just the most effecient free counter spell better than foil, better than misdirect better than commandeer. It doesnt mean its too good because it pushes other (NOW) suboptimal creatures beneath it. I would really like exalted angel to be playable but it never will be because of goyf, that doesnt make goyf too good it makes angel too BAD.

It is infact top that is the problem (if it is a problem its ONLY DUE TO TIME CONSTRAINTS) as goyf, while format warping, is just a beater he makes creatures smaller than him worse. That isnt a bad thing, afterall grizzly bears is unplayable (I sware if some one pulls out that 1 list that swapped a G bares for a goyf I will kick them in the nuts) for so many reasons, that doesnt make wear bare, Vanquisher, watch wolf, or any other 2 drop too good , it makes bears too BAD.

[scrow213]

For referance those who say no other card fulfills the requirement of turn 0 0 mana counter your plans have been FOILed. Clearly you dont know your own arguement. FOW is just the most effecient free counter spell better than foil, better than misdirect better than commandeer. It doesnt mean its too good because it pushes other (NOW) suboptimal creatures beneath it. I would really like exalted angel to be playable but it never will be because of goyf, that doesnt make goyf too good it makes angel too BAD.

It is infact top that is the problem (if it is a problem its ONLY DUE TO TIME CONSTRAINTS) as goyf, while format warping, is just a beater he makes creatures smaller than him worse. That isnt a bad thing, afterall grizzly bears is unplayable (I sware if some one pulls out that 1 list that swapped a G bares for a goyf I will kick them in the nuts) for so many reasons, that doesnt make wear bare, Vanquisher, watch wolf, or any other 2 drop too good , it makes bears too BAD.

Foil is garbage, and it is stupid to bring up such a corner-case card. 'goyf doesn't just make creatures smaller than him worse. All creatures do that. He makes almost any creature that is not a 4/5 for 2 mana unplayable. Psychatog was amazing in his day. That was before Tarmogoyf said "1/2 for 3 in two different colors that can be pumped? How about an easily splashable 4/5 or 5/6 for 2?" Same with Werebear "A 1/1 for 2 that taps for mana and becomes a 4/4? Why not a creature that is almost guaranteed to start larger every single time?"

If you think this is how the game should work then I feel sorry for you. Now nothing wizards prints will be good enough to play, unless it is better than a Tarmogoyf. So I hope you like him guys, cause nothing is going to replace him for a long long time.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Foil, Disrupting Shoal, Misdirection. Pact of Negation. But I think relevance and numbers were an implied, if not explicitly stated, part of the conversation.

eta: Oh, and Daze, obviously. Although that actually didn't see nearly as much play before Goyf, since Fish sucked and other decks, even Thresh, had to worry about late games and the like.

Anyway. While I still don't think Tarmogoyf will be banned, I think it probably should be and it would probably make the format more interesting. Not to mention, cheaper. Heck, there was a time when Dark Ritual- Phyrexian Negator was a good play...