If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
@ swarm187
The Snow Engine (Top + Snowlands) is insane. It is better than Fact or Fiction (next to blasphemy, I know). In fact, the Snow Engine is most akin to Library of Alexandria (not as powerful, but similar).My question is this: Is the snow engine really that good?
In practice, you'll see that the snow engine allows you to have the most consistent set of consecutive land drops in competitive magic. Card advantage is straight card advantage, whether it be land or spell. This deck is always land hungry, so drawing a land is generally a quality line of play in the first place.
One way of thinking about it is that control decks spend more mana playing spells/abilities than other decks (roughly efficient ones) per game. Control decks create opportunities to re-use their mana-base more effectively. Part of abusing that long-term mana resource is having to control tools to make the game last long, but the other part is having the card draw engine which neatly fills the unused gaps of mana available on a given turn.
The Snow Engine fills the niche. The Snow engine allows you to maximize your mana supply each turn, and so your resources are rarely wasted.
Yes.My second question is: Has anyone tried splashing blue?
I have several U/W control variants that I test. I have two working versions of U/W Snow-Control (which I was going to post in the U/W thread in a bit).
Your main problem with the Blue splash is that if you want FoW, then you must run enough blue cards. If you are only splashing minimally, you don't get FoW. You do however get Sensei's Divining Top's best friend: Counterbalance.
Teferi is random. Chant-lock is quickly assembled, and you have no wasted space in your deck. Have a chant sitting and doing nothing, and there is an opening to drop scepter? Then, alright, tutor that badboy up and drop the lock. Teferi can't do that.IMO, if you're going to try to get Scepter/Chant lock, you might as well try to squeeze Teferi in for the firm lock.
@ DeathScythe
I agree. Blue probably isn't worth it if you intend to focus on the aims of this Snow Parfait deck. However, if you take an MUC deck, and adjust it with Quinn in mind, you have a very different animal. It isn't landstill, and it has one of the heaviest control roles I've ever seen.So far I don't think blue will add that much to the deck
The primary reason to go blue is Counterbalance. We already run top, and we expect long term games. Counterbalance improves several matchups: it drop kicks loam, storm, burn, and aggro-control (if resolved).
Quick examples of variants that have been pretty decent for us:
// Lands
4 [CS] Scrying Sheets
15 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
3 [A] Tundra
3 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
// Creatures
4 [SC] Eternal Dragon
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Counterspell
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [REW] Powder Keg
1 [TE] Capsize
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
The above deck is MUC with with a white splash and Quinn's snow engine. MUC doesn't play Counterbalance, but a white splash can afford MUC the chance to play it. The deck below plays more like Quinn. It keeps the solid lockpieces in Moat/Scepter and adds Back to Basics/Shackles/Counterbalance. I prefer the above myself. This is about how far we have to bend Quinn to play blue.
// Lands
1 [A] Tundra
7 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
11 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
4 [CS] Scrying Sheets
// Creatures
3 [SC] Eternal Dragon
// Spells
1 [LG] Moat
1 [MR] Isochron Scepter
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
3 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [US] Back to Basics
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [IA] Counterspell
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
The primary issue is that if you can bend the mana-base to get the UU for counterbalance, then you really don't have a good reason not to play Counterspell and FoW as well. Permission is definitely powerful. It can't make its way into Quinn very easily though (or rather, we might not be able to even call the deck Quinn after we add blue).
peace,
4eak
both of those builds seem god-awful slow. Quinn needs to run a combo win like painter/grindstone. Ive made room to run a sacred mesa in my build. So my maindecked win cons are 2 Elspeth, 3 Eternal Dragon, 1 Sacred Mesa, 2 Painter, 2 Grindstone. Seems like plentyOriginally Posted by 4eak
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@ Joe_C
The point of that portion of my post was to express what happens when Quinn tries to add blue.
Yes. Those control decks are slow. In practice, the games are about as extensive as most Quinn games (which can be exceedingly long in many circumstances as well). Keep in mind:both of those builds seem god-awful slow.
a.) Shackles is better than you seem to realize. Half the time, you don't even need to play a win condition besides shackles.
b.) Playing Counterbalance means we don't care nearly as much about playing a slower game.
c.) Permission adds an enormous amount of universal defense that can often be worth a slower clock.
I'm not sure what you hoped to accomplish in your statement. I agree that MWC Quinn should be running Painter/Grindstone. When you add blue, that changes.Quinn needs to run a combo win like painter/grindstone.
Quite of few of the reasons Quinn "needs" to run Painter/Grindstone are solved by playing a permission-shell. The above decks aren't better with Painter/Grindstone in our testing (we had to replace them to find that out).
Again, your reply has little to do with what I posted. You don't run permission. If you aren't meaning to talk about splashing blue in Quinn, and you just want to talk about your win-cons, I'll be happy to do that though.I've made room to run a sacred mesa in my build. So my maindecked win cons are 2 Elspeth, 3 Eternal Dragon, 1 Sacred Mesa, 2 Painter, 2 Grindstone. Seems like plenty
I don't like Elspeth because it can't be tutored and is often too conditional to be viable. The good part about the card is that it is a fantastic engine, both defensively and offensively. I have found that the added offense isn't necessary (because Painter/Grindstone is usually easier to assemble, protect, and more effective at winning in compressed spaces of time), and the defensive aspects of the card aren't as good as just plain Decree of Justice (which interacts just fine with Moat if you want it to) or pure defensive options. Elspeth can be difficult to protect, and lacks synergy with cards like Runed Halo and Story Circle.
peace,
4eak
Joe C: I understand you point completely. In my experience though, control decks like MWC Quinn have no problem drawing the game out longer. On the contrary, your chances of winning increase the longer the game goes on.
So yes, there is such a thing as being too slow but I don't think splashing blue for Counterbalance and perhaps another few cards would slow the deck down dramatically.
In my limited testing, I've found Eternal Dragon tough to cast as a win condition. Has anyone else run into this problem? I understand that Painter/Grindstone is the primary win con here, but having a 5/5 flyer on the board is usually not a bad thing either.
I was thinking of trying out Exalted Angel in here, has anyone else used her? I understand the cycling power of Eternal Dragon makes it a must in this deck, I was just wondering if anyone had seen success/failure with Exalted Angel.
I was also thinking of throwing in 2- Karmic Guides to use with Eternal Dragon. I know she costs a lot, but you could get the Dragon and the Guide into play for the same cost as just returning the Dragon to your hand. I'm not sure if that is just wishful thinking, but I'm going to try it out.
Currently Playing: BANT Aggro variant
I haven't been playing Legacy much, and thus haven't been commenting, but I'm going to add something based on my experience.
The only thing you need to worry about with Quinn is Counter-Top, Chalice, and to a lesser extent Deed. In straight up strengths and weaknesses, the deck tends to demolish most other strategies. It's biggest vulnerabilities are the low casting curve and reliance on several key permanents, although mostly the first one.
If you're going to majorly overhaul the list for any reason other than tackling this issue, I don't see the point. Counterbalance-Top on your own end actually doesn't help you that much; it doesn't do much that Chant-Scepter doesn't do, and comes down too late to stop Chalice or CB on the opponent's side, usually.
A straight up MUC splashing white would be a different deck entirely; that list might be better off in a Landstill thread.
Swarm187, it honestly sounds like you're throwing out ideas without having tested a list that was very heavily refined by several people after quite a lot of playtesting. I'm not saying that you have to have played the list thoroughly in order to comment; I hate that kind of logic myself. But actually piloting the list on MWS a few times might reassure some of your doubts.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
If top got banned, wouldn't this deck just get the shocker?
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
@ swarm187
Quinn usually doesn't actually win the game until it has 10 land in play. If you have to happen to win earlier, then you combo'd because the coast was clear and you had the pieces to do it (or because sometimes you are forced to do it) or your opponent conceded off the back of Chantlock, Moat, or Story Circle. Usually you just get a giant snowball of advantage rollling and win when you know there is no way your opponent could possibly answer you.In my limited testing, I've found Eternal Dragon tough to cast as a win condition. Has anyone else run into this problem? I understand that Painter/Grindstone is the primary win con here, but having a 5/5 flyer on the board is usually not a bad thing either...I was thinking of trying out Exalted Angel in here, has anyone else used her?... I was also thinking of throwing in 2- Karmic Guides to use with Eternal Dragon.
I don't think Dragon is that slow. The Dragon-win is about inevitability with mana-smoothing and the option of card advantage built inside. The Dragon win is the back-up win condition for this deck. You use it because you need to draw out your opponent's non-StP control cards, or because tutoring up and protecting another win condition isn't the best option or isn't even possible at all.
Exalted Angel and Karmic Guide should prove completely unnecessary when you have plenty of practice with the deck.
One of the problems for a control deck is that win-con's are generally dead in your hand, acting as virtual card disadvantage, for a good portion of the game. That problem can be mitigated by using win-con's with multiple roles/recursion.
Eternal Dragon's plainscycling, shuffle effect for top, recursive card advantage, and ability to see play over and over makes it difficult to answer, at times a defensive tool, and quite versatile all around.
Stick to Dragon and Painter's Combo, and when choosing whether or not to play a third win condition, ask yourself what real weakness of the deck it improves.
@ TheInfamousBearAssassin
A surprising number of opponent's have never even tested against Quinn (or may not even know the decklist), and that is a huge information advantage. Countless numbers are caught off guard by Chantlock, moat, and Painter's combo; they are often unprepared for how much the game can change in a single turn when playing against this deck.
Against experienced opponents, I don't think Quinn honestly "demolishes" most decks though. When opponents learn to play properly against Quinn (which many don't), and we have fewer opponent-mistakes to capitalize upon, the games are much closer. It is in these matches that I've often wished I was playing some form of permission.
As for the experiments with going blue, I'm not saying they are a success at all. I was primarily answering a question about what it takes for Quinn to go blue. I prefer staying MWC myself. However, I find permission is stronger than you suggest. In many of those cases where we cry out for 'Chantlock', permission handles it much easier.
History has given us good reason to at least try permission inside Quinn, even if we don't immediately see benefits before we experiment. Admittedly, I don't think permission is really worth the losses in the white control cards that are removed to play blue. For now, I agree; the deck doesn't need an overhaul--it answers the metagame very well (the point of control). I certainly consider it one of the best decks in the format the way it is.
These are definitely very dangerous for Quinn, but I think there are other cards that are pretty bad as well. I have found Krosan Grip to be the most common card I face, and it is usually quite effective. We don't fold to Grip/DE, but it is certainly no small problem for the parfait-silverbullet strategy of Quinn.The only thing you need to worry about with Quinn is Counter-Top, Chalice, and to a lesser extent Deed
Loam (and Raven's Crime makes it even worse), all forms of DE, heavy burn, talented storm players (rare indeed), Ichorid, and pseudo-combos inside a permission shell (aggro control can be this), Armaggedon and friends (DD/etc.), and any deck that has a serious t1 and 2 play can pose problems (because our answers aren't universal like permission). These issues are amplified in game 1 where you may not know what you face.
Decks that would play Counterbalance generally have other blue answers (e.g. FoW) to Chalice or CB as well. CB-Top is an amazingly softlock which is difficult to substitute, and besides the mana-base, Quinn is only missing CB to complete the combo. I definitely think we should be slower to dismiss the general defense provided by permission.Counterbalance-Top on your own end actually doesn't help you that much; it doesn't do much that Chant-Scepter doesn't do, and comes down too late to stop Chalice or CB on the opponent's side, usually.
Chantlock is often the "goto" answer for cards and strategies that otherwise beat the rest of our deck. Chantlock can't always be assembled though. Permission buys time to reach the point where you can reach the softlock in cases where pure white control cards might not.
Counterbalance protects itself, and CB/Top alone wins countless games against the format. CB/Top is good enough that we should certainly consider throwing it in most control decks in the same way we might consider throwing Goyf in all decks.
I'm not saying it belongs in Quinn in the end, but I am saying that there are certainly many matches where I prefer to be playing some permission than pure white.
@ Loxodon Baileyarch
The Snow engine (which alongside E-tutor is what makes this deck tick) would die, and we'd move to older versions of MWC which aren't as good. You often don't keep hands without Top or Tutor for a reason: you can't afford not to have top in play unless you are holding the keys to the kingdom with a known silverbullet in hand.If top got banned, wouldn't this deck just get the shocker?
peace,
4eak
has anyone had success running Elspeth in their list? Ive been testing with her in there, I know she is good, just not sure if the 2 I run should be snow covered land #19 and 1 Story Circle maindecked.
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Well, at least we smell better
I played the Quinn-deck yesterday at a local tournament in Antwerp (51 players) and finished 4-2-0 to a 16th place. I should've went 5-1-0 in fact but played bad in my second round against a Zoo-deck (game one I can stall the game, get to enlightened tutor TWICE but for some reason fail to find the Story Circle I put maindeck specifically for this mathup. So yeah, I deserved to die to his burnspells there). My matchups were:
R1: Rock (lost, this is a horrible mu imho)
R2: Zoo with lotta burn (lost, due to my own stupid misplays)
R3: Bye
R4: UBWG Landstill (w/ deeds, extirpates and nantuko monastery's, won)
R5: Threshold (won)
R6: Eva Green (won, with a little luck thanks to a fast painter/stone in G2 and a mana-flooded opponent in G3)
Anyway, this is what I played:
19 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Scrying Sheets
2 Painter's Servant
2 Grindstone
1 Sacred Mesa
2 Eternal Dragon
1 Decree of Justice
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Isochron Scepter
4 Orim's Chant
3 Abeyance
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Runed Halo
1 Humility
1 Story Circle
3 Wrath of God
For reference, the changes I made from the decklist in the OP are:
- 1 Eternal Dragon
- 1 Oblivion Ring
- 1 Moat
+ 1 Decree of Justice
+ 1 Story Circle
+ 1 Humility
+ 1 Snow-covered Plains
Some thoughts on the maindeck changes:
- I decided I would rather play 23 lands in a 61-card deck than 22 in a 60-carder, and didn't want to cut anything.
- The switch from Moat to Humility was due to card-availability.
- I'm not sure whether the maindeck decree should be a third eternal dragon or not. I liked the decree but all in all I think the shuffle/landthinning is more important. I used the decree twice: once it was answered by an explosives and in the other match it didn't really matter because I won by painter/stone.
- I liked the maindeck story circle a lot, I would play it over the 3rd O-Ring any day.
- I would like to swap one Snow Plain for a Mistveil Plains. The mistveil can be tutored for with Dragon and it allows you to return countered/destroyed grindstones/servants/mesa's to your deck for recursion with enlightened tutor. When playing a long drawn-out game against Threshold during round 3 (when I had a bye) I found myself running out of win-conditions (2 plowed dragons, explosives to deal with decree-tokens and countered grindstones) and this card would prevent that from happening. Because I would only play one, the increased vulnerability to Wasteland doens't seem all that relevant to me (Sheets are more important anyway).
- And just to make this clear: Runed Halo is stupid good.
I rebuilt the sideboard completely, this is what I brought:
1 Ghostly Prison
3 Martyr of Sands
2 Porphyry Nodes
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Abolish
3 Ethersworn Canonist
- The Porphyry Nodes look cool but although I boarded them in a lot I haven't drawn them once, so I couldn't tell you whether they are a good choice or not.
- I didn't face dredge, elves or goblins so I didn't board the Prison once. I think it is a fine sideboardcard to have though.
- The Martyr's are staying, they can win quite some time against burn/zoo and can remove dredge's bridges. They don't look to shabby against storm-combo either.
- Relic/Crypt: obvious.
- Abolish: I choose Abolish over Ray of Distortion because it allowed me to answer a fast dreadnaught or a scepter from burn more quickly. However, Ray seems the better choice in hindsight.
- Canonist: haven't been able to put him to good use (no storm, dredge or elves) although I boarded him in against zoo/burn - at least they burn him first before they continue going for your face, so he's sort of a bad healing salve there. I would proberably cut one in the future, he IS tutorable after all.
One thing I definately want to try is adding Chalice to the Void to the sideboard (cutting one canonist and maybe the nodes as well). Besides being quite strong against ANT, putting this baby down on one seems like a devastating play against Zoo and burn: Wild Nacatl/Kird Ape/Fanatic/Lavamancer/Bolt/Chain are all disabled. It doesn't shut off Chant (when kickered, its CMC is two) but it does counters Grindstone, top and StP (although top should come down before Chalice anyway) so I'm not 100% sure. Any thoughts on this?
As far as Elspeth goes, I thought about putting one in the sideboard but eventually decided against it. Thing is, I don't think it is correct to run a win condition which
1) Can't be tutored for with enlightened tutor (painter/stone, mesa)
2) Can be countered easily (Dragon is recurrable, cycled DoJ).
I do think Elspeth is a very good card though, but you would proberly like having multiple copies of her in your deck (to get her in play reliably) and I can't see how you can find the space for that without cutting essential lock pieces or other, more reliable, win conditions.
Cheers and have fun neutering goyfs with Halo's!
Tom
Incorrect. Nothing can change a card's CMC. Kicker counts in regards to Trinisphere because trini asks how much mana was spent, CotV asks what the CMC is (all the mana symbols in the upper left corner of a card added together).
If that is true than how does EE get around Counterbalence? I believe on the stack a spell's CMC is how much mana was spent for it. However, this may be true for x spells and not kicker,
x spells, while on the stack are the cc of whatever X equals, while in play, however, X=0.
Kicker cost is just an added, optional cost, it is not part of the casting cost and thus, does not add to it's CC on the stack or in play.
That...
Team Hammafist
EE can also be cast for more than the amount of counters you intend to have in it. if you spend
Well, I have settled on a list and my Moat is in the mail! Yay!!! Here is what I intend to play at a tourney in a few weeks:
18 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Scrying Sheets
2 Painter's Servant
2 Grindstone
1 Sacred Mesa
3 Eternal Dragon
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Isochron Scepter
4 Orim's Chant
2 Abeyance
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Runed Halo
1 Moat
1 Story Circle
3 Wrath of God
2 Elspeth, Knight- Errant
SB:
2 Story Circle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Runed Halo
4 Ray of Distortion(counterbalance decks are rampant in my meta)
2 Decree of Justice
1 Rule of Law
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Aura of Silence
This seems to be really working for me in the testing I have done
TEAM AWESOME
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I like the list, that's close to what I'd play. Let me know how the Elspeths do. I've always wanted some more testing with her.
Also, why rule of law over canonist? I feel that against combo canonist can come down faster, not get hit by duress, and actually provides a way for you to put a little pressure on combo until they can get an answer. I mean honestly, I feel that it's doing close to the same thing for you, and as far as combo goes they have the same answers once in play, but less when it's in your hand.
Also, what's the reasoning for the extra o-ring and halo in the board? When would you want to increase the number of those cards in your deck versus having something that would be more useful against more specific types of decks?
Why play extra combo answers while we already play 7 chant effects + runed halo, seems like protection enough. The only thing we need to fear is the infamous turn 1.
I'd find better use for sideboardspace.
Just my 2 cents...
Currently playing and testing:
Faerie Stompy
Bant Survival
UW Tempo
Zoo
Hey dont bash my reading skillz! If they grip your moat you loose 1 card. If they grip Scepter, how much cards do you loose?
Here is a great articel about Tempo and Card Advantage.
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/new...p?Article=3690
@4eak:
Thx for make the resoning about Scepter clearer for me.
“Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
@ NiRVeS
Thanks for the report. I've found several of the comments insightful and/or interesting.
Very few deck designs could allow you play a 61 card deck in principle. Parfait is one of the few that really doesn't care nearly because of how the draw/filtering engine is designed. I will be testing your idea.23 lands in a 61-card deck
I hear ya; Moat is fucking expensive. I think you are playing a completely different deck without moat though. That card is retardedly awesome. I think Moat is the number one reason to play this deck.The switch from Moat to Humility was due to card-availability.
I also think Humility neuters Painter Combo too much, preventing you from making certain relevant plays that Moat-based Parfait would have made. I recognize Humility rocks hard (and actually is pretty amazing alongside moat too), but I really suggest picking up Moat (which I hypocritically don't own myself, but our tournies are proxied for us).
Playtest with it, you'll see why it is worth the pricetag for this deck.
Decree has been a strong sideboard card for me.I'm not sure whether the maindeck decree should be a third eternal dragon or not.
I think removing a Runed Halo is a better choice than O-ring. Story Circle is much more similar in role to Halo, and frankly, I find myself needing O-ring against Chalice/CB too often.I liked the maindeck story circle a lot, I would play it over the 3rd O-Ring any day.
Testing right now. It can be a very good card, and it lets you drop Painter's combo and singletons with less caution. This is a very powerful effect. This is tutorable and reusable Argivian Find (not exactly, but similar function).I would like to swap one Snow Plain for a Mistveil Plains.
I haven't liked them, and I've much preferred to use the sideboard space for cards that have more impact on some of our more difficult matches. It is too easy to play around Nodes, but it also not as necessary for a deck that has such a strong aggro match.The Porphyry Nodes look cool but although I boarded them in a lot I haven't drawn them once, so I couldn't tell you whether they are a good choice or not.
Chalice seems like a bad plan. We just can't break the symmetry of the card. In fact, Chalice is one of the strongest cards against our deck. Think about the cards you lose to Chalice@1 (almost all of them absolutely necessary in our matches where Chalice would be useful).One thing I definately want to try is adding Chalice to the Void to the sideboard
@ Valtrix
If you go too specific has its own problems too. O-Ring and Halo remain relevant against lots of aspects of lots of decks. Our redundancy becomes even more important as people side against us. Silver-bullet strategies are innately weaker in games 2 and 3 for our deck.Also, what's the reasoning for the extra o-ring and halo in the board? When would you want to increase the number of those cards in your deck versus having something that would be more useful against more specific types of decks?
When we board them in:
O-Ring against Chalice and CB decks.
Halo against very, very low threat count decks: Factory/Goyf/Stalker/Deeznoughtz/Tendrils.
peace,
4eak
Elspeth has been working well for me, and I feel comfortable with the arrangement of the deck so that I can run her as a 2 of.
You know, I forget that canonist exists as a card all the time. It is definitely an option, I have a rule of law in my possession so I guess thats why I am running that
Also, I understand the usefulness of decree of justice in the board as an extra win condition. But what matchups does it really shine in?
Last edited by Joe_C; 03-31-2009 at 04:31 PM.
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