So quick question, How many people were in this tourny and what place did you get. I am just curious because this is the first time in a while I have heard this deck put up some serious results.Originally Posted by Jaynel
It was 26ish people. I then got 9th at Hadley playing a similar list, but in a field of 51 (?) players.
In playing with your list, I also had them turn 1 imp/tribe then turn 2 dredge on draw with breakthrough. Its very explosive but in some cases the stuff i dredge into doesn’t have the resources to kill now. Either i lack a bridge, a narc, a return or an FKZ. To solve this i added the 3rd return and 2nd sage. These let me start the engine up again in case my breakthrough isn't lethal now. In case, i can't win now given my graveyard, i could just return a sage to dredge more and hopefully get enough resources that i need to win. Raising the sage and return count gives me better chances of doing this. Like what Pulp_Fiction mentioned in the opening post, this helps you get to the bottom of your library faster, something the deck really lacks with the removal of the LED engine.
A turn 1 imp/tribe is very important to the deck that is why I run a 4/3 configuration also in my list. In my list, I run +3 darkblast, +1 breakthrough in place of 4 golgari thugs. My meta plays a lot of fantics, jailers, etc. that is why im comfortable with my md darkblasts. As of now, I’m not having a hard time finding creatures sac’d to return. Your deck runs 4 thugs that are creatures that can casted easily, this give you 4 more possible creatures for return. With an imp and possibly a thug, you only have to dredge for either a narc, or a therapy and two bridges, both which wouldn’t be so hard to achieve. The thugs make returning for sage a more possible play. I’m actually thinking of running thugs now.
My list also has -1 Ichorid, -1 therapy for +1 Return, +1 Sage, apart from the breakthrough and blasts for thugs. I play dredge for its combo more than the ichorid gameplan. I usually play against decks that I must race to win, that Is why im more fixated on the combo rather than the aggro plan. For me, the sages play a very crucial role in how the Ledless Dredge works. In LED dredge, sage only plays a minor role, it is somewhat only the “emergency” engine. You usually go for it after the breakthrough, LED, DA combo if your graveyard still don’t have resources to win. In LEDless Dredge however, sage plays a much bigger role. Sage makes up for the dredging power lost when we gave up running the LED-DA engine. Without the dredging power of sage, LEDless decks would just look like LED Dredge without the LEDs and DA. For me, I win off sage more times than I do through breakthrough, its been that good to me. For me, I run zero thugs and Im having no problems finding dredgers or ichorid food. Its probably more of personal preference and my meta that gave way for me playing the deck that way. I just prefer the combo over the last resort ichorid beatdown approach. If I remember correctly your meta has a lot of blue and very few combo. Your build is great against that meta. The combo is something that your opponents will never allow so having a great ichorid game is solid. The ichorid beatdown is probably unstoppable for blue decks that don’t run propaganda effects.
When I first grabbed the deck my list exactly looks like yours except for 3 blasts for 3 thugs, I also play tarnished citadel. I played against 2 red decks, a landstill, a welder deck, a belcher, and rock; I went 1-5 possibly 4-2 or better, if not a number of errors that caused by some games. I lost against the welder deck, landstill and burn deck mainly because the deck ran out of gas. I was able to breakthrough on turn 2 against the red deck but i all I got was crap, I think had 2 narcs but only 1 bridge 1 return and no sage. he was able to cast an ensnaring bridge on his turn. He finished me off before I could get my answer. Against the landstill deck I was able to resolve a breakthrough again that dredged crap, I was lacking a sage this time and FKZ was no where in sight. He was able to clasm my tokens. I tried to combo-out again but my attempts were all countered. My Ichorid beats got blocked by a recurring factory some got burned. I ran out of ichorid food then. These games were supposedly very good match-ups. The deck dredged badly but in my opinion it just wasn’t able to dredge enough. Those games would’ve turned out differently had I’ve been able to dredge deeper into my deck. Then I retuned my deck to running 2 sages and 3 returns. This gave me more stability relative to the speed and more importantly, dredging power. Sage is like the NOS tank in race cars, it breaks limits that the deck is confined to given just a dredge from a breakthrough etc. You should try Sage in your meta and see if he makes your deck go apeshit. Sage wins.
Bum_man: I was palying with 2 sage/3 return and I may do so again. There are just so many options for quantities of certain cards and in certain situations having one more of one particular card can make the difference, and there are instances where the card you cut would have been better. Im thinking 4 study is definitely needed along with 7 Imp effects. Breakthrough is awesome as we all know, but 4 seems excessive since we cant cast it effectively turn 1. Im bouncing so many things around, I will most likely play this deck this weekend in a tournament. I will discuss list and results afterwards. For the moment I will be manipulating the deck this way and that to see what seems the most relaible
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
Very well said. I may cut that 4th breakthrough for the 4th therapy, i usually interchange them before tournaments depending on what decks i think will be around. I'll be looking forward to hearing your positive results.
I took this list to my local tournament last wednesday and lost out in the top 8 again due to solid fucking luck. Here is the list I played:
4x Careful Study
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Putrid Imp
4x Bridge from Below
4x Narcomoeba
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Tireless Tribe
3x Ichorid
3x Dread Return
3x Darkblast
3x Breakthrough
2x Cephalid Sage
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
4x Cephalid Colisseum
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass
2x Tarnished Citadel
SB
4x Wispmare
4x Pithing Needle
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Chain of Vapor
Here is a short tournament report on what happened:
Round 1 - Counterslivers (2-1)
g1- Turn 3 kill
g2 - I see double relic and die on turn 6 to double muscle slivers
g3 - Same as game 1
Round 2 - Goyf Sligh (2-0)
g1- I Darkblast his turn 1 Mogg fanatic and win on turn 4 easily.
g2 - I dredge like shit but destroy his hand and combo off on turn 6.
Round 3 - Aggro Loam (2-0)
g1 - I dredge like pure shit after blowing up CC and am in trouble after a turn 2 Terravore that is bigger than a 10/10. I eventually dredge into Dread Return and reanimate the Sage for a turn 4 win at 2 life!
g2- Ravage him on turn 2-4.
Round 4 - U/G Turbo Fog Garbage
g1 - I destroy him on turn 7-8.
g2 - Didn't know his deck had Propaganda .... I lose to double Relic and double Propaganda.
g3 - After Wispmare comes in it gets a little easier, he only draws 1 Relic and can't deal with 12ish zombie tokens swinging every turn.
Top 8
Round 5 - Same matchup as round 4 Turbo Fog
g1- Destroyed again on turn 4-6
g2 - I dredge like pure shit and get triple Relic played against me
g3 - Again, dredge like pure shit, I would have won had I not dredged into 3x Wispmare and 3x Cabal therapy within the first 20 cards. And lose cause I had to save Cabal Therapy and Wispmare. It should be noted that I had the yard removed 3 times and still almost won.
This terrible deck ran Cryptic Command, Moment's Peace, Propaganda, Shackles, Crucible of Worlds, CONSTANT FUCKING MIST, and Eternal Witness. He would bounce Pithing Needles and then Relic me, but either way it was bullshit, I should have won game 3.
I am very happy with 14 lands and the 4th Therapy. The build is the exact same as the OP except for this change.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
A quick question; how do you shuffle your deck in between games? Usually what I do is a 7-pile shuffle to make sure the dredgers get split up really well (because they'll be together after the game you played).
If you do shuffle your deck efficiently, then I really don't know what else to say other than play Ray of Revelation over Wispmare since it isn't a dead card in your graveyard (since you did say in g3 in the top 8 you dredged 3 Wispmares into your graveyard).
The same Surging Chaos on Salvation.
Ray of revelation is inferior to wispmare because it can't kill leyline; killing leyline and the like is what wispmare is mainly used for anyway. I run 3 wispmares and 1 ray of revelation just on the off chance that i dredge all my wispmares vs a deck with propaganda effects. Has anyone considered testing echoing calm? It seems a plausible and effective way to handle multiple propaganda effects.
Last edited by bum_man; 04-14-2009 at 01:21 AM. Reason: Improved discussion
Ok, not like its a perfect reason to make the changes, but in playing yesterday I came across the same situation 3 times where another sage/return would have sealed the deal. SO....... What I will be playing until further notice:
4x Careful Study
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Putrid Imp
4x Bridge from Below
4x Narcomoeba
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Tireless Tribe
4x Ichorid
3x Dread Return
3x Golgari Thug
2x Breakthrough
2x Cephalid Sage
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
4x Cephalid Colisseum
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass
2x Undiscovered Paradise
SB
2x Wispmare
4x Pithing Needle
2x Ingot Chewer
4x Firestorm (better than dakblast? for now I say yes)
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Ancestor's Chosen
This has felt good so far.....
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
What decks were you up against? And how did you fair?
My games were on MWS just to be noted. I played against red thresh, G1 I mulled to 3 and played a city just to have it wastelanded so I just scooped that up. G2 I dont even board, I go for the throat and get in there on like turn 4 or 5. G3 I bring in some chewers and some needles and 1-2 chain. I slow dredge it into him making a fatal error by not blocking a ichorid and me discarding 3 bridges that were sitting in my hand to get 4 EOT tokens for 3 turns in a row and they drag him down quick. I played against a poor mirror match, this guy was running tolarian winds and couldnt really play the deck well. I steam rolled him G1, G2 he cast winds with 3 cards in hand and proceeds to dredge as though he had four, I call him out on it and then leave because he is being a prick about it. In those two matches, I would have one a turn or so earlier with another return/ sage. Every turn kinda counts so I am justifying the changes back to 3/2 return sage split
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
Aren't you the people that play more lands because LED is all-in and is a 2-card combo? Now you come and say 2 casting cost is too much? Give me a break, in the situations you described the Ray of Revelation would have been much better.
That's just one situation, in a majority of other situations where enchantment-hate is needed, ray of revelation would suck. Wispmares are in the sideboard primarily for the enchantment-based hosers like leyline and wheel of sun and moon. For propaganda effects, Chain of vapor is enough because these enchantments only needs to be removed from play. You said ray of revelation is better because it becomes on-line in the graveyard then you talk about its cost when you cast it from the hand. In that case, wispmares would be superior because it would cost less. Im not saying ray of revelation is a bad card, it's actually a good card for dredge. All i'm saying is given we run rays over wispmares, there are gonna be more times that rays are going to be dead cards in contrast to wispmares given their function in the sideboard.
With most decks running a split of relic/crypt, is a more reactive SB better suited than a turn 1 blind pithing needle?
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Firestorm
2 Ingot Chewer
3 Wispmare
1 Ancestor's Chosen
2 Ancient Grudge
Still trying to settle on everything before the tournament Sunday. I hate the few days before a tournament, especially with Ichorid, there are so many options for card quantity
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
As of the moment I'm also having the same problem with my sideboard. Thinking of the sideboard has been a pain for me since I'm relatively new in playing competitively. I've lost a number of my games due to wrong sideboarding, For relic and crypts i have 3 pithing needles, 1 ingot chewer and 1 ancient grudge and two random chalices. I usually don't play needle on the first turn blindly, that will more often than not cost you some losses due to naming the wrong cards. I usually wait for the opponent to play the crypt or relic then i needle it. Or at times i play chalice at zero then needle relic. How do you usually sb against relic/crypt decks? Do you use the chain of vapors often?
I've been a big fan of Greater Gargadon against opponents playing an unknown type of hate. I've played Non led Based ichorid the last couple of weeks and I like it's consistency.
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradice
4 Bridge
4 Narcomeaba
4 GGT
4 SI
3 Thug
1 Darkblast
3 Dread Return
1 Flame Kin Zealot
3 Ichorid
1 Akroma AOF
1 Cephalid Sage
3 Unmask
2 Firestorm
4 Putrid Imp
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
This list has had an extremely good goldfish. I want to fit in a 3rd Firestorm but at times I have had issues with getting the right colors.
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
Chains come in against anything that I would be unsure of the hate they have. If I expect crypt/relic I will bring in the chewers and grudges, maybe a chain or two. Im not sure what my board is going to look like shortly, I may be going back to running unmask in the maindeck since it is a offensive and defensive card that has tons of uses......
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
Oh i see.. I'm not really sold on using chewers and grudges without needles. I've lost a number of games in the past where my grudges/chewers just forced my opponent to activate the crypts/relics now, they usually have another one at hand, more importantly they are still able to wreck my graveyard. So what i do is i play needles along with the grudges.
I've also been wanting try out maindeck unmasks too because of the number of blue and combo where i play the problem is i don't think i have the slots to do so. They would either further thin out my combo which is something i don't want to do. Do you already have slots in mind for the unmasks?
Hello,
As of now, I've not read the full thread, but I've a question for you guys. (sorry if it has been asked)
How do you think Reveillark would do in MD ?
Being able to return 2 of : FKZ / Cephalid Sage/ GGT / Stinkweed Imp seems REALLY enormous and game breaker.
I've found Reveillark to be a win-more card. If you were able to reanimate a Cephalid Sage from Rev for example, you could have just as easily DRed Sage back into play to clean out a huge chunk of your library. Likewise, you can also do something like DR FKZ directly for the instant win instead of reanimating Rev, saccing it to a Therapy and then reanimating FKZ.
The same Surging Chaos on Salvation.
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