[OLD] UGw Threshold

[Jujuhawk]

You're running a lot of 3 drops which is awkward with counterbalance. I want 4 daze too, that was the best card in the deck in the tournament I won on saturday. I drew trips against Eva Green and it wasn't even close.

[Damnosus]

You're running a lot of 3 drops which is awkward with counterbalance. I want 4 daze too, that was the best card in the deck in the tournament I won on saturday. I drew trips against Eva Green and it wasn't even close.

How are 3 drops awkward for Countertop? I thought the idea was to run more so that you can effectively counter deed, vindicate, most of staxx, grip (sometimes), predator, etc. I mean a majority of the cards used to get rid of countertop are cmc 3. Besides, I run no more than Der Imaginare Freund (a player who I greatly respect especially regarding U/G/w thresh).

I am still on the fence about daze. Far too often it does little to nothing-it is a mixed bag in the early game because it slows me down, and it is pretty bad in the late game. For a while I was running the 3 daze/1 counterspell tech, but I changed that to fit in a few extra things.

What does your decklist look like?

[ShiftyKapree]

After thinking a little bit about some of the problems I have been having with the deck, I have made a couple of changes and I wanted to know what you folks thought. Here is what I am gonna start testing:

Lands: 18
4x Flooded Strand
4x Windswept Heath
3x Tundra
3x Tropical Island
1x Forest
3x Island

Blue: 17
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Counterbalance
3x Daze
2x Ponder

White: 4
4x Swords to Plowshares

Green: 11
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Werebear
2x Noble Hierarch
1x Krosan Grip

Gold: 5
2x Trygon Predator
2x Rhox War Monk (considering swapping for Wisescale Serpent)
1x Mystic Enforcer

Artifacts: 5
4x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Vedalken Shackles

Sideboard:
3x Gaddock Teeg
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Blue Elemental Blast
3x Engineered Explosives
1x Krosan Grip
3x Pithing Needle

Ok so here are my thoughts on it: first off, I wanted to keep the CMC of the cards within the deck similar to other successful counterbalance decks. At the moment I have 16 cmc 1 cards (which might be slightly high due to the number of tops), 15 cmc 2 cards (probably the minimum for any deck that does not play spell snare-a card which I really do not like), 6 cmc 3 cards (on the higher end which I appreciate-casting them is easy due to the increased number of mana producers), 1 cmc 4 (not sure if this is correct, seeing as so many others had 2-3), 4 cmc 5 (force of will for the win). I think these are good numbers for abusing countertop, though, admittedly, I wish I had one more cmc 2 card, but I really don't want a 4th daze, and I have never been successful with Predicts. So hopefully this will work out ok.

Card choices: while I know that previous lists usually use 4 ponder and 17 lands, I felt that I was too often keeping a one land hand with cantrips, something I really do not want to keep doing considering chalice at 1/trinisphere, a wasteland (if the single land is a nonbasic), a even a counterspell can do you in. So I feel that the 18 land is a step in the right direction.

The land base has also changed a little bit: initially I had a single plains instead of the third island. This change was made due to my desire to include vedalken shackles, a card which I think is a good way to increase the chances of gaining card advantage (card quality+countertop can only get you so far). I kept the single forest so that I could still hit blood/magus of the moon/back2basics with explosives. Additionally, I decided on a single forest over a plains because if my tundras get hit by wasteland/extirpate, it is far less devastating than if my tropicals were gone.

I am, however, unsure if I have enough islands/lands to even be playing shackles: I figured playing/activating it would not be so hard due to the mana acceleration, but it definitely limits my targets. It is this aspect which might make or break noble hierarch for me (as I would add two more lands in their place). I am also uncertain if the card should simply be the O-ring that I was playing before, but I am not enjoying O-Ring as much as I used to due to the fact that, like sower of temptation, it is only pseudo removal, as its removal negates its effect. It is for this reason as well, that I run Enforcer over sower of temptation, but I am still unsure if that is the correct choice. I could just forgo both and run another shackles, but I feel a 4cmc card is good to have, though maybe not as a 1 of...

Lately Rhox War Monk has been not much more than a FoW chuck-thus I want to try out Wisescale Serpent at some point. I am not sure if this is the best idea, but only testing will tell.

Please let me know your thoughts!

I'd first cut rhox war monk and put in an EE and a Pithing Needle to make the deck more stable. Cut a STP and a Top for two trinket mages. Last thing I would change is cutting an island to a plains. Other things you might want to try is another shackles and Sower of temptation to gain leverage in the game and making it more controlish. Another thing I could see is uping Ponder to 3-4 because that sorcery matters when goyf comes to play. I was wondering how Teeg is working in the SB. Why not choose stifle over it, I personally like stifle for game two on the play to cripple mana bases early on. That is what I would do to the deck. I'm currently working on my own with out threshold because it seems like a waste for mongoose and werebear to be in the deck. I do like mongoose though, but seems like a deadbeat in mid to late game. Just a couple of thoughts on the deck

[Damnosus]

I'd first cut rhox war monk and put in an EE and a Pithing Needle to make the deck more stable. Cut a STP and a Top for two trinket mages. Last thing I would change is cutting an island to a plains. Other things you might want to try is another shackles and Sower of temptation to gain leverage in the game and making it more controlish. Another thing I could see is uping Ponder to 3-4 because that sorcery matters when goyf comes to play. I was wondering how Teeg is working in the SB. Why not choose stifle over it, I personally like stifle for game two on the play to cripple mana bases early on. That is what I would do to the deck. I'm currently working on my own with out threshold because it seems like a waste for mongoose and werebear to be in the deck. I do like mongoose though, but seems like a deadbeat in mid to late game. Just a couple of thoughts on the deck

The purpose of Rhox War Monk is to have a better game against swarm aggro. I would definitely remove him if I had access to a fourth color (for either pyroclasm, or engineered plague), but since this is still three color, I am not sure his removal would be such a good idea. While good at certain things, trinket mage/tool box does not help with this weakness, meaning it is probably unnecessary.

I removed two ponders specifically because they are unnecessary with higher land counts.

The single plains was replaced with an island simply because of shackles-as it stands now, I still don't think I have enough islands/lands to be running it (but I need to do more testing). Heck I would remove the single forest if it weren't for blood moon effects.

I really don't know whether or not to run sower over enforcer. Enforcer lays the beatdown on certain decks that we have problems with. Sower gets hit by a single bolt and suddenly combat changes a great deal. I guess I am just afraid of using sower-anyone care to convert me?

As for stifle, this is not tempo thresh-I would run it if I could capitalize on it, but countertop thresh is too slow to do so. Teeg on the other hand, is fantastic against decks that we have problems with, namely landstill (no more wrath/humility/planeswalkers), and geddon stax (no geddon/smokestack/chalice).

I would love to get rid of threshold as well, but we still need that 2cmc for countertop. Since werebear is really the only candidate for that slot in u/g/w thresh, he needs to be run.

[ShiftyKapree]

I'll show u my build this weekend. I cut thresh completely out of the deck. If you run Daze, CB, and tarmogoyf you should have enough 2cmc spells in the deck. I personally like sower bc it steals a goyf or something better. I mean in the mirror he steals a mystic if they play it. He's good on so many levels even against Landstill. Also against burn I wouldnt worry about Bolt and sower in that match up bc you should be winning bc of counter balance. Another thing is that you have counters to keep it alive

[Damnosus]

I'll show u my build this weekend. I cut thresh completely out of the deck. If you run Daze, CB, and tarmogoyf you should have enough 2cmc spells in the deck. I personally like sower bc it steals a goyf or something better. I mean in the mirror he steals a mystic if they play it. He's good on so many levels even against Landstill. Also against burn I wouldnt worry about Bolt and sower in that match up bc you should be winning bc of counter balance. Another thing is that you have counters to keep it alive

12 cmc 2 cards just feels low considering it is the most important number for countertop.

I wasn't thinking about the burn matchup in regards to sower-I was thinking more like goyfsligh, Zoo, anything with black. I just feel like it is too easy for the opponent to manipulate the card.

[sauce]

cb main & postboard cop:r/aegis of honor > burn.
i run 1 aegis of honor because we have burn decks in our meta.
it acts like cb #5 because they won't be casting any of their burn ever again :)

[memnarch]

I'm seeing less and less mongoose now days, so shackles looks better and better with the giant targetable fatties running around. Wouldn't you rather just run more utility. Many of the decks that made it in T8 at GP ran countertop. And I see in some of these lists mongoose is missing. I took Gabriel Nassif's UGW control list and made some changes especially the sideboard. I think shackles >> sower. I think when the new angel comes out in reborn I may trade one shackle and one predator for em.

land 20
4 flooded strand
1 island
3 polluted delta
4 tropical island
4 tundra
4 underground sea

creatures 11
4 dark confident
4 tarmogoyf
3 trygon predator

spells 29
4 brainstorm
4 counterbalance
4 force of will
4 sensei's divining top
3 vedalken shackles
4 swords to plowshares
2 stifle
4 daze

SB
4 leyline of void
4 engineered plague
3 krosan grip
4 tormod's crypt

[Jujuhawk]

My list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Rhox War-Monk
2 Sower of Temptation

3 Stifle
3 Sensei's divining Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will

19 Land

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

War Monk didn't really do anything, I played against burn in top 4 but it just ate a fireblast, I won with cb/top both games I won. It should probably just be werebear or something. Maybe the new gro dude when arb comes out.

[Damnosus]

My list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Rhox War-Monk
2 Sower of Temptation

3 Stifle
3 Sensei's divining Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will

19 Land

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

War Monk didn't really do anything, I played against burn in top 4 but it just ate a fireblast, I won with cb/top both games I won. It should probably just be werebear or something. Maybe the new gro dude when arb comes out.

RWM isn't necessarily for burn. It is mostly for fast aggro.

[Jujuhawk]

Obviously, but it seems like it's non existant in my meta aside from a few burn, so it's pretty unnecessary.

[johanessen]

Okay this is the Counter-Top UGw Threshold list i'm gonna play next tournament . . . i need your opinion.

Lands - 19
3 Islands
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

Creatures - 11
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trinket Mage
2 Trygon Predator
2 Sower of Temptation

Spells - 18
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares

Permanents - 12
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle

SideBoard - 15
4 Meddling Mage
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Krosan Grip

Trying to abuse of trinket's tutor. maindeck and sideboard.
Academy Ruins - Yes or not? Maybe in a 20-land list?
Lands. 19 are enough? Remember I play Daze.
Daze in a semi-control list. Yes or not? Maybe 3?
Pithing Needle Maindeck, yes or not?
Meddling Mage on sideboard. Thoughts?

This is a mixed from Nassif and Probasco lists.

Thanks for help

[Damnosus]

Depending on your meta, consider changing the deltas to heaths and then add a single forest so that you are more resilient to wasteland (and don't die from extirpate on tropical), and so that you can get that third color for engineered explosives in order to get rid of moon effects.

1-2 academy ruins might also be a good idea as you will win counterbalance wars due to recurring EE, and if you lose a shackles you can use it to bring it back/abuse counterbalance.

I find 4 daze to be kinda overkill. Go down to 3 and either add a counterspell, or something else that you think will help. Keep in mind the number of cmc 2 cards in your deck for counterbalance purposes.

I would also consider getting rid of meddling mages in the board-he is good against certain things, like combo, but counterbalance is already good in those matchups, and he doesn't really help you in the control matchup as he will die very fast. Maybe Teeg if you expect to see any sort of control and he is also good against combo (no dread return/breakthrough/ad nauseum/tendrils).

Chalice? Why? You can only set it at 0 (as every other number hurts you) and there are better things that you can use.

[johanessen]

Meddling naming Krosan Grip it's good also.

Chalice @ 0 and @ 1 while you attack kills nauseam. nauseam decks are very common in barcelona

[ShiftyKapree]

You should be beating control before you even get a chance to board. The deck is a sit and wait situation anymore. You wait till its safe and have a counter war to resolve a goyf. The deck is no longer thresh its more controling. 4 tops is an overkill for running mages along with it. I personally like pithing needle in the maindeck it stops wastelands, fetches, and vials. My biggest is why should I run two Sowers and two shackles. I have debated this for awhile and thinking of cutting sowers. Ruins can be a hit or miss. If you run one ruins your gonna need to draw it to be affective. THe thing about it hurts ur mana base so much.

[Clark Kant]

How do you guys feel about somthing like this build post Alara Reborn?

Lands: 18
4x Flooded Strand
4x Windswept Heath
3x Tundra
3x Tropical Island
1x Forest
1x Plains
2x Island

Blue: 20
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Counterbalance

White: 4
4x Swords to Plowshares

Green: 6
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Noble Hierarch

Gold: 10
4x Qasali Pridemage
2x Wisescale Serpent
2x Rhox War Monk

Artifacts: 4
4x Sensei's Divining Top

It's kind of a intermediatary between Threshold and Midrange Aggro. But with everyone playing pinpoint removal these days, and practically no one playing Wrath of God, increasing the number of threats doesn't seem like a bad thing.

[sauce]

How do you guys feel about somthing like this build post Alara Reborn?

Lands: 18
4x Flooded Strand
4x Windswept Heath
3x Tundra
3x Tropical Island
1x Forest
1x Plains
2x Island

Blue: 20
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Counterbalance

White: 4
4x Swords to Plowshares

Green: 6
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Noble Hierarch

Gold: 10
4x Qasali Pridemage
2x Wisescale Serpent
2x Rhox War Monk

Artifacts: 4
4x Sensei's Divining Top

It's kind of a intermediatary between Threshold and Midrange Aggro. But with everyone playing pinpoint removal these days, and practically no one playing Wrath of God, increasing the number of threats doesn't seem like a bad thing.

not feeling the serpent, run 2 vendillion cliques in that spot, its way better imho.
also, w/o mongoose, you don't need 4 ponders (since you already have 4 tops too to find stuff + 4 brainstorms), i think cutting the ponders down to 2 and running 2 shackles or 2 sowers is way better. up the land to 19? also is non basic hate really prevalent in your meta, you seem to be running too many basics, i know it is nice to not care bout wasteland/magus, but how often does it happen in your metagame?

wouldnt running like 1 island and 1 forest be enough? it seems this way you can still k-grip bloodmoon and rushing river the magus if you ran those.
obv if your whole metagame is dragon stompy and staxx, your land base is probably correct.

[godryk]

I'm not too sold on Hierarch as a 2-of, I think it's the kind of card you want to see in your first seven to get the most of it, I wouldn't play any if I were to play only 2.

[Clark Kant]

I'm surprised that you're not sold on Serpent. It seems like a strong fit in threshold. By the time it can attack, it's atleast a 3/3. But if you play a Brainstorm, it's 6/6. It also pumps with Top, Ponder, and Predict. That's pretty synergic.

But I suppose cutting some Ponders along with Serpent works too. The deck could use an evasive flyer like Mystic Enforcer as a 2 of.

Hierach seems viable because the deck plays on a higher curve than most thresh lists.

[TheRock]

After only some testing, I've found that Coatl is even better than I originally imagined it to be. I think that running him is better than running Predator and Clique against the mirror and I'm now 100% positive that I would never run Clique or more than 1 Mongoose MD again. I can win Goyf wars by doing nothing other than using a Top or Brainstorm -> that's way too good not to at least try and most decks only have prayers to stop something that size once you have any countermagic at all.

I would never run less than 2, and if I had to, I would cut a Daze for him.