I've been running a list with 2 Dorans which I am going to replace with two Lorescale Cocoah. I think the list is pretty strong.
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Sensei's Divining top
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Lorescale Coatl
2 Vindicate
4 Force of Will
2 Tombstalker
Originally Posted by Parcher
The problem that I have with the overall analysis of the two is that I don't find the difference between goyf and coatl defensively on turn 3 to be all that big a deal. Basically there are a few situations where you might win a game if you have a 2/3 or bigger blocker on turn 2 or turn 3, a few situations where it just doesn't matter which one you landed - because you're dying anyway, and the vast majority of the situations where the *defensive* value of the two is just a negligible factor that isn't decisive one way or the other.
The question that I have, and the answer is not clear to me, is whether Lorescale Coatl gives Threshold (and NLU generally) a high-octane aggro option that it does not currently have. The question is completely independent of whether or not coatl or goyf is actually more valuable in the deck.
I think the coatl's lack of defensive abilities early in the game is a big deal. I think it is the main drawback of the card.
REB and Pyroblast. That's where I think he gets weaker game 2 and 3. The opponent gets to tune in the things he wants to hit your draw, your counters and one of your major threats.
Its not an OR its a "Coatl and goyf are actualy valueable together in the deck" No one will drop goyf for this save the very stupid. The card compliments goyf but discourages goose, it seems they like canadian thresh less than CT thresh. In essence I think this will see play consitentaly as a 2 of prehaps as a 3 of because its just so big, black cant beat it without removal and that means its protecting goyf which is a good thing.
I c h o r i d - my anti blue
Manaless Ichorid- At least its cheeper than standard.
We admit for the sake of the exercise that following is true:
Landstill > Fromat
Non-Basic Hate > Landstill
Basics > Non-Basic Hate
We can therefore logically conlude that
Basics > Format
How often do you face a creature-oriented game-ending threat that Tarmogoyf would save you from as opposed to having nobody on the board on turn 2? How often is the difference between having a 3/4 down and having a 2/2 on turn 3 decisive?
Goblin Lackey is about the only thing that I can think of that qualifies as a must-answer blockable threat that early.
Often. Against zoo for example a turn two goyf is far superior to a turn 3 coatl, game breakingly so. This is true for almost any similar agro deck. Of course you wouldn't be cuting goyf for this. So the reall comparison I think is comparing it to the card you would cut. In this specific scenario I would be cutting doran for the coatl, and in this scenario i think doran would be better. However in overall matchups I think the coatl would be better.
It's really bad that all snake-related tribal cards suck so much - just imagine what this could do if it was reasonable costed.
We really don't need yet another tribal deck. I am very happy with that guy costing 6 mana, he would be broken if he cost less.
Oh snap! I'm building an EDH deck.
(wow - that guy sucks for EDH too!)
I haven't been following thresh/CB that much lately. My first impression with Coatl is that it could help out UG thresh/CB, if that deck even exists anymore. You can get a reasonable creature in addition to goyf without going white (enforcer) or black (tombstalker). If you are playing it in 3 or 4 color thresh/cb, now you can play a reasonable creature without having to fetch your non UG duals. You could pack more basics, etc.
If we learned anything from tarmogoyf it's that fatties with no other abilities are good.
Like...Brassman's deck ?
I keep thinking something along the lines of
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Sower of Temptation
3 Serpent
3 Vendillion Clique
Notable: Neither Shackles nor Threads can take this guy...but sideboarded Mind Harness can(wouldn't have to keep it around for long I guess).
georgjorgeGeistreich sind schon die anderen.
I'm thinking that since it's blue you get a benefit when you remove Nimble Mongoose for it. I'm going to try pulling Ponders for Sylvan Library with the extra blue from the creature base making up the difference.
I really think the Sylvan Library-Lorescale Coatl combo is going to be pretty strong. Between Brainstorm and Sylvan Library you have 8 ways in the deck to give coatl +3/+3 and Sylvan Library does it as a permanent every turn. It's definitely not win-more given that the Sylvan will land early and before coatl and help dig for what you need. People probably haven't used it recently so they don't remember what it was like to keep 3 cards on turn 3 and refill your hand for 8 life.
Sylvan Library's utility overlaps with Sensei's Divining Top quite a bit. The problem is that -synergy with Coatl notwithstanding- SDT is clearly a better card than Sylvan Library.
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Sensei's Divining Top is not coming out for Sylvan Library, Ponder is.
4x Brainstorm
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Sylvan Library
That's a lot of dig in the deck and Sylvan Library doesn't require mana each turn to do it the way that Sensei's Divining Top does, so they fulfill a similar dig function with SDT actually costing more to be a bit more effective.
Two Sylvan Libraries in play will allow you to draw 2 extra cards twice with the first resolving fully before the second is resolved. This will only let you look at the same cards you just put back, unless you choose to keep 1 or more of the extras in the first pull, in which case you would look at one or more new cards in the second. A Lorescale Coatl would be +5/+5 for the turn at the end of the second pull. So like SDT's extra Sylvans are not a dead draw with a Lorescale Coatl on the table.
The other thing that's kind of nice about Sylvan Library compared to Ponder is that the opponent kind of needs to live with it as a permanent draw/filter source for you, since spending precious removal on it would be unwise against a deck playing Counterbalance.
You can also keep a 2cc spell on top of your deck forever with Sylvan Library in play, or alternately know what is on top of your deck. It's not that hard to figure out what to leave on top against most opponents early on until Sylvan Library finds you a Top to go with Counterbalance.
Playing 4 Tops + 4 Libraries seems kinda terrible.
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Agreed. Ponder is still necessary for the shuffle effect, anyway, so you can maximize SDT abuse.
Maybe 7 of them between them would be better. Having a permanent that digs on the table by turn 2 in most of your games seems to me to be a positive thing for a deck that wants to exploit Counterbalance and wants to exploit draws the way Lorescale Coatl does.
Think of it as the latest evolution in the Kill Filter engine. Instead of cantripping like mad to get to your power cards you're dropping a permanent to dig down to them. Fetchlands still work for the reshuffle effect, the deck actually operates more proactively in the 3 to 6 turn range since mana does not need to be left open for Top some of the time, and you still get to your power very quickly with all the dig.
Not a fan of the idea. Ponder is the only sorcery in the deck, and removing it just makes Goyf worse.
For both you and your opponent, making Lorescale Coatl better. Unless they'd like to provide the Ponder, Chain Lightning, Thoughtseize or whatever to grow both of your goyfs out to full size.
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